[_ Old Earth _] The Flood of Noah may be proven

[Ruben]

If what is found embedded in the Areogel of the Stardust spacecraft proves to be of origin from our planet, it will send all the evolutionists back to the table.

Anyone here familiar with Dr. Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory? If not and interested you can read all about it at http://www.creationscience.com.

The return of Stardust spacecraft this week can either go a long way to proving Dr. Brown's theory or pretty much toss it into the dump. I personally am hoping for a big score toward proving some of what is contained within the Scriptures. Ruben

 

[Oran_Taran]

I went to see the site, and I fail to see how it would prove the great flood.
It could mean a number of things from supervolcanoes to meteors.

 

[peace4all]

so wiat. Because we found bacteria on a meteorite, that means that all life came from earth?

Idunno the last time that a meteorite gathered up bacteria on earth, and then was shot off into space.. But.. wow..

 

[Ruben]

Keep looking, who knows you might find truth. Or can you simply state that you already have all truth? I don't and the last thing I want to do is reject something because I don't understand it. Nor do I agree with most who believe and teach that Jesus is coming again and He is mad as hell and ready to kill. Ruben

 

[2Pillars]

I believe Noah's flood happened in another world beyond this universe. You might as well be waiting for the eternity, Seriously, speaking. :-D

However, the Ark settled and landed just south of Mt. Ararat.

 

[Grengor]

Ah yes, the hydroplate theory. Funny that, that it would generate enough heat to effectively sterilize the entire earth. Funny that.

 

[2Pillars]

Double posting - Edited

 

[2Pillars]

Sorry, but what's "hydroplate theory" anyway? I am not familiar with it.

However, the Scripture clearly teaches us that the first universe was totally destroyed by the flood. It perished and no longer exist, when the window of heaven were opened Genesis 7:11.

Do you want Scripture to prove that analogy?


God Bless

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, but what's "hydroplate theory" anyway? I am not familiar with it.

However, the Scripture clearly teaches us that the first universe was totally destroyed by the flood. It perished and no longer exist, when the window of heaven were opened Genesis 7:11.

Do you want Scripture to prove that analogy?


God Bless

Scripture does not clearly teach that the universe was destroyed nor is there any place in the bible that says that. That is something you have made up. So I'd suggest you quote the bible accurately when making your points.

Genesis 7:11-12, "In the six hundredth day of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month-on that day the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth for forty days and forty nights. "

 

[2Pillars]

Dear Heidi,

One thing you're going to learn dealing with me is that I support everything I post with Scripture. There's no reason for me to make up things, as you accuse me of doing.

For your information and additional learning, please find few of my Scriptural back up to support my position, to start with. I will also suggest that you set aside your preconceived notions in order to understand the truth of the Scripture.

Genesis 1:6-8 documents that the 1st Firmament or Heaven was made on the 2nd Day.

Genesis 2:4-5 documents that the 2nd and 3rd Heavens were made on the 3rd Day.

ll Corinthians 12:2 documents that the Apostle Paul was caught up to the 3rd Heaven.

IOW, Scripture documents us that there are 3 Heavens (Universes) and you say you don't know about another World?

Read ll Peter 3:5-7, and explain why God spoke of the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, which Perished. (Greek-Destroyed, Totally)

Tell us the fate of the Heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW, and explain where Christians will be when this happens.

We both know that this universe will be Burned, and you tell me Scripture does not speak of other Worlds?

Read Revelation 21:1 and deny the complete documentation, Scripturally, of other Worlds.

See, I don't make up things as you were accusing me of doing. Should you need more help understanding, please let me know.


God Bless

 

[reznwerks]

If what is found embedded in the Areogel of the Stardust spacecraft proves to be of origin from our planet, it will send all the evolutionists back to the table.

Anyone here familiar with Dr. Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory? If not and interested you can read all about it at http://www.creationscience.com.

The return of Stardust spacecraft this week can either go a long way to proving Dr. Brown's theory or pretty much toss it into the dump. I personally am hoping for a big score toward proving some of what is contained within the Scriptures. Ruben

Here is why the "hydroplate theory" doesn't hold water. Sorry for the pun. You need to read and understand real science and creation science is really just an oxymoron.

The rock that makes up the earth's crust does not float. The water would have been forced to the surface long before Noah's time, or before Adam's time for that matter.


Even two miles deep, the earth is boiling hot (260 to 270 degrees C at 5.656 miles in one borehole; Bram et al. 1995), and thus the reservoir of water would be superheated. Further heat would be added by the energy of the water falling from above the atmosphere. As with the vapor canopy model, Noah would have been poached.


The escaping waters would have eroded the sides of the fissures, producing poorly sorted basaltic erosional deposits. These would be concentrated mainly near the fissures, but some would be shot thousands of miles along with the water. Such deposits would be quite noticeable but have never been seen.

You may not like the link where they came from but don't shoot the messenger. Dispute the facts as they are before you try to respond.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:bJ ... y%22&hl=en

 

[strengthened]

I have a simple theory to the Flood Story.

During that time, the north and the south pole began melting due to climate change. Massive global ice melting flooded the islands and coastal areas, and some inlands. It literally changed the map of the Earth at that time.

The destruction does not really comes from the flood itself, but through massive tidal waves - like the Asian Tsunami, but at a greater scale. The moon's distance must have been at that time very close to Earth to create massive spring tides and king tides.

Quote:

The Proxigean Spring Tide is a rare, unusually high tide. This very high tide occurs when the moon is both unusually close to the Earth (at its closest perigee, called the proxigee) and in the New Moon phase (when the Moon is between the Sun and the Earth). The proxigean spring tide occurs at most once every 1.5 years.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjec ... ides.shtml

Adding to the calamity, there must have been massive Volcanic eruption and massive Earthquakes in the depths of the sea and on land to have caused massive waves.

Combining all these forces, you have a very violent wave going around the globe, unrelentlessly and without mercy. Gigantic tsunami powered by powerful eruptions, earthquakes and the pull of the Moon.

Everything on the Earth is destroyed.

We should not view flooding, as just a simple raising of water, people can always get a log and float and survive. However, I see this flooding as a massive wave going around the Earth to wipe out everything.

You can see this effect when you fill a pail with water. You swing it around and the water splashed about violently. See how the waves also moves the pail due to the weight of the water. Imagine that on a larger scale when billions of tons of water charging at you at supersonic speed and at an incredible height as high as mount everest. You're gone. Pulverised. Every civilization wiped out and pulverised. Ever played with a high pressure washer? See how it pulverise a wall?

The speed of the Asian Tsunami Wave: The wave travels across the ocean at speeds from 500 to 1,000 km/h.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsunami


And as written:

Genesis 7:11-12, "In the six hundredth day of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month-on that day the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth for forty days and forty nights. "

This verse suggest massive volcanic eruptions(bursts) happening at the great deep around the globe.

http://www.amnh.org/education/resources ... anoes.html

The springs of the great deep is this:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/exploring.html

Deep Sea Vents:

http://wonderclub.com/WorldWonders/VentsHistory.html

According to what is written in that verse, it is accurate. How did the Bible know that there is a spring at a great deep? Did they have a submarine back then? According to USGS, it was only in 1977 that scientist discovered this spring at a great depth of 2.5KM.

When the great deep burst forth through a violent volcanic eruption, it brought with it huge volume of water and shoot it up to the sky so high. The pressure must have been so enormous! It must have looked like a great gigantic fountain / geysers in the middle of the ocean. So high the burst went, it reached the atmosphere and formed massive clouds and formed rain and hail.

A big eruption in the deep like this, will create monstrous tsunamis, dwarfing the tsunami that happened in Asia. With such massive force, the Earth at that time will be wobbling badly like a drunkard. I believe the geographic North pole at that time would have changed, maybe moved somewhere near the equator. Our geographic North pole today could have been the equator before the flood. The massive force basically changed the position. *I also believe, with such great force, the plates moved so much so that it formed mountains, canyons, valleys and etc. within a short period of time. Just study the tsunami that happened in Asia, it literally moved the islands by about 100 ft!

Quote:

More spectacularly, there was 10 m (33 ft) movement laterally and 4-5 m (13-16 ft) vertically along the fault line. Early speculation was that some of the smaller islands southwest of Sumatra may have moved southwest by up to 20 m (66 ft). There were also calculations that the northern tip of Sumatra, which is on the Burma Plate (the southern regions are on the Sunda Plate), may have moved up to 36 m (118 ft) southwest. Since movement was vertical as well as lateral, some coastal areas may have been moved to below sea level. The Andaman and Nicobar Islands appear to have shifted southwest by around 4 m (13 ft), according to GPS data.

In February 2005, the Royal Navy vessel HMS Scott surveyed the sea bed around the earthquake zone, which varies in depth between 1,000 m (3,300 ft) and 5,000 m (16,500 ft) west of Sumatra. The survey, conducted using a high-resolution multi-beam sonar system, revealed that the earthquake had made a huge impact on the topography of the sea bed. *It had created large thrust ridges, about 1,500 m high, which have collapsed in places to produce large landslides several kilometers across. One landslide consisted of a single block of material some 100 m (300 ft) high and 2 km (1.25 mi) long. The force of the displaced water was such that individual blocks of rock, massing millions of tons apiece, were dragged as much as 10 km (7 mi) across the sea bed. *A newly-formed oceanic trench several kilometres wide was also found in the earthquake zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_India ... earthquake


Quote:

Obliging deep-sea volcanoes erupt while scientists watch

WASHINGTON - Hoping to learn more about undersea volcanoes, scientists sent a camera-equipped submarine down to take a look. They got more than they bargained for, witnessing a deep-sea eruption.

"At first we really didn't understand what was going on," said Bob Embley, chief scientist on the mission, which involved nearly three dozen researchers.

"We were seeing billowing clouds coming up and turning yellow. There was sulfur and rocks were flying out," said Embley, an oceanographer with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory. "We realized we were the first to witness a deep-sea volcano during an eruptive episode."

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/13/World ... _vol.shtml

 

[reznwerks]

rain

I have a simple theory to the Flood Story.

During that time, the north and the south pole began melting due to climate change. Massive global ice melting flooded the islands and coastal areas, and some inlands. It literally changed the map of the Earth at that time.

The destruction does not really comes from the flood itself, but through massive tidal waves - like the Asian Tsunami, but at a greater scale. The moon's distance must have been at that time very close to Earth to create massive spring tides and king tides.

Quote:
l

The problem is that is not what the bible described. It was supposedly caused by rain not polar caps melting and the whole earth was supposedly covered including every mountain. Lastly the geological record does not show any evidence of a global flood. Plain and simple. It never happened.Their is evidence of disasters such as you describe but that is about it.

 

[strengthened]

Re: rain

I have a simple theory to the Flood Story.

During that time, the north and the south pole began melting due to climate change. Massive global ice melting flooded the islands and coastal areas, and some inlands. It literally changed the map of the Earth at that time.

The destruction does not really comes from the flood itself, but through massive tidal waves - like the Asian Tsunami, but at a greater scale. The moon's distance must have been at that time very close to Earth to create massive spring tides and king tides.

Quote:
l

The problem is that is not what the bible described. It was supposedly caused by rain not polar caps melting and the whole earth was supposedly covered including every mountain. Lastly the geological record does not show any evidence of a global flood. Plain and simple. It never happened.Their is evidence of disasters such as you describe but that is about it.

There is however, an important piece of clue, which we can build up from there:

NIV Version of the Bible: Genesis 7:11

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

This verse is a very important clue as it clearly tells the direct cause of the flood. It was only in 1977 that Scientist found out that there are springs in the deep.

Ask yourself this, how on Earth did the Bible know thousands of years ago, that there are springs in the deep? Did they have deep sea divers that could dive in 2.5KM deep without suffering the ill effects of pressure?

As described in the Bible, "ALL of the Springs of the Great Deep burst forth".
Not one, not two, but every springs, discovered and undiscovered on the face of the Earth.

Ask a Geologist what will happen on this event. Remember, we live in a natural world. Catastrophe on this magnitude takes time to build up and before it happens, I believe, natural disasters like climate change, global warming, polar ice cap melting, el nino, hurricanes here and there, earthquakes happening in many places, will have to take place first.

It cannot and will not happen magically all of a sudden. It is more like boiling a pot of water. It does not boil immediately, it takes time to build up heat and boil the water.

Bible:

Genesis 8

1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,

On this verse alone, it is clearly stated that the rain(floodgates of heaven) only stopped when the springs of the deep were closed, apparently subsided. So, we clearly know the cause of the rain.

To tackle the problem of a global flood, apparently as described in the Bible , even the highest mountain covered by a depth of 20feet! Impossible!

We are very correct by saying that all the water in the oceans cannot possibly flood the whole earth. This is true if we consider our current map of the Earth.

I believe the Earth before the flood was one big super land mass, a super continent called Pangea. One big plate.

http://geology.com/pangea.htm

Remember how the Asian Tsunami apparently moved plates and islands within a short period of time and not millions of years? Some scientist thought it was impossible.

I believe during the flood, this one huge super plate colapsed below sea level due to the powerful earthquake and volcanic eruption in the ocean and land happening during that time. Imagine a dinnerplate submerged in the sink. I believe this is what happened during the flood.

Even when the rain stopped, there are still massive earthquakes happening due to the plates and splitted land masses colliding to form new land masses and mountains which eventually comes out of the water at great heights. Some of the water trapped in these newly formed mountains, formed lakes and water falls above sea level.

Most scientists believe this could not have taken place at a short time, but in hundreds of millions of years. New evidence suggest that this is not so when the Asian Tsunami happened. That Earthquake of magnitude of 9.3 made a 1.5KM high thrust ridges!! Imagine that happening at a short time!

The new land itself comes out of the water by the colliding fault lines. The evaporation of water only plays a small part in this in bringing out new continents and islands.

2 Peter 3

5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The majority of the flooding is basically caused by the Earth plate's collapsing violently and submerged in the water and back again out of the water as explained in the illustrations.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: rain

I have a simple theory to the Flood Story.

During that time, the north and the south pole began melting due to climate change. Massive global ice melting flooded the islands and coastal areas, and some inlands. It literally changed the map of the Earth at that time.

The destruction does not really comes from the flood itself, but through massive tidal waves - like the Asian Tsunami, but at a greater scale. The moon's distance must have been at that time very close to Earth to create massive spring tides and king tides.

Quote:
l

The problem is that is not what the bible described. It was supposedly caused by rain not polar caps melting and the whole earth was supposedly covered including every mountain. Lastly the geological record does not show any evidence of a global flood. Plain and simple. It never happened.Their is evidence of disasters such as you describe but that is about it.

There is however, an important piece of clue, which we can build up from there:

NIV Version of the Bible: "All of the Springs of the Great Deep burst forth."

This verse is a very important clue as it clearly tells the direct cause of the flood. It was only in 1977 that Scientist found out that there are springs in the deep.
I don't care how many springs are underground. There is no way the that there is enough water underground to cover every mountaintop. Again there is no evidence in the geological record that records a flood. The evidence isn't there and it should be.

Ask yourself this, how on Earth did the Bible know thousands of years ago, that there are springs in the deep? Did they have deep sea divers that could dive in 2.5KM deep without suffering the ill effects of pressure?
I don't think it's a stretch to come to that conclusion if anyone ever witnessed a geyser, or spring coming up from the ground.

As described in the Bible, "ALL of the Springs of the Great Deep burst forth".
Not one, not two, but every springs, discovered and undiscovered on the face of the Earth.
The "rest of the earth" concerned their own little corner. Other civilizations existed at the time and were quite advanced. The Chinese come to mind specifically and they record no flood. I can't find any info that makes the bible older than around 3500 years.
Ask a Geologist what will happen on this event. Remember, we live in a natural world. Catastrophe on this magnitude takes time to build up and before it happens, I believe, natural disasters like climate change, global warming, polar ice cap melting, el nino, hurricanes here and there, earthquakes happening in many places, will have to take place first.
Ask a geologist IF it could happen. What would cause the water to all rise out of the ground at one time? Then ask what would replace the water. The answer the water would seep back down from where it came because there would be enormous voids underground. You want me to believe that gravity would be prejudiced and not pull the water back into the crevices where it came. If you say it didn't go back into the ground then you have to explain where it went.

It cannot and will not happen magically all of a sudden. It is more like boiling a pot of water. It does not boil immediately, it takes time to build up heat and boil the water. True enough but the steam has to go somewhere. Either it condenses and goes back into the pot or it goes into the atomosphere. There is not enough water in the atmosphere to flood the earth over the all the mountains. If water boiled out of the earth then it would be steam and it would condense again as rain and fall and fill the massive voids from which it came. Sorry the flood never happened.

 

[strengthened]

Re: rain

I don't care how many springs are underground. There is no way the that there is enough water underground to cover every mountaintop. Again there is no evidence in the geological record that records a flood. The evidence isn't there and it should be.

I was talking about the deep oceans. The springs in the oceans.

I'm not really an avid fan of the "hydroplate" theory.

I don't think it's a stretch to come to that conclusion if anyone ever witnessed a geyser, or spring coming up from the ground.

Again, I was talking about the deep oceans. Forget about "underground" thing for a moment, and concentrate on the ocean.

Ask a geologist IF it could happen. What would cause the water to all rise out of the ground at one time? Then ask what would replace the water. The answer the water would seep back down from where it came because there would be enormous voids underground. You want me to believe that gravity would be prejudiced and not pull the water back into the crevices where it came. If you say it didn't go back into the ground then you have to explain where it went.

I repeat again, "OCEANS". O-C-E-A-N-S. OCEANS. A large body of water. Ohhhhsssssiiiiiyannnnnssss..

 

[reznwerks]

Re: rain

I don't care how many springs are underground. There is no way the that there is enough water underground to cover every mountaintop. Again there is no evidence in the geological record that records a flood. The evidence isn't there and it should be.

I was talking about the deep oceans. The springs in the oceans.

I'm not really an avid fan of the "hydroplate" theory.

I don't think it's a stretch to come to that conclusion if anyone ever witnessed a geyser, or spring coming up from the ground.

Again, I was talking about the deep oceans. Forget about "underground" thing for a moment, and concentrate on the ocean.

Ask a geologist IF it could happen. What would cause the water to all rise out of the ground at one time? Then ask what would replace the water. The answer the water would seep back down from where it came because there would be enormous voids underground. You want me to believe that gravity would be prejudiced and not pull the water back into the crevices where it came. If you say it didn't go back into the ground then you have to explain where it went.

I repeat again, "OCEANS". O-C-E-A-N-S. OCEANS. A large body of water. Ohhhhsssssiiiiiyannnnnssss..

The oceans are already filling a vast void of space. There is no way they are going to get up and cover the mountain tops. We don't have enough water on the earth, or in the earth to accomplish this feat and again the geological history shows no evidence of any global flood.

 

[Khristeeanos]

There were no huge mountains before the flood, they were caused by the flood.

 

[strengthened]

Re: rain

I don't care how many springs are underground. There is no way the that there is enough water underground to cover every mountaintop. Again there is no evidence in the geological record that records a flood. The evidence isn't there and it should be.

I was talking about the deep oceans. The springs in the oceans.

I'm not really an avid fan of the "hydroplate" theory.

I don't think it's a stretch to come to that conclusion if anyone ever witnessed a geyser, or spring coming up from the ground.

Again, I was talking about the deep oceans. Forget about "underground" thing for a moment, and concentrate on the ocean.

Ask a geologist IF it could happen. What would cause the water to all rise out of the ground at one time? Then ask what would replace the water. The answer the water would seep back down from where it came because there would be enormous voids underground. You want me to believe that gravity would be prejudiced and not pull the water back into the crevices where it came. If you say it didn't go back into the ground then you have to explain where it went.

I repeat again, "OCEANS". O-C-E-A-N-S. OCEANS. A large body of water. Ohhhhsssssiiiiiyannnnnssss..

The oceans are already filling a vast void of space. There is no way they are going to get up and cover the mountain tops. We don't have enough water on the earth, or in the earth to accomplish this feat and again the geological history shows no evidence of any global flood.

I agree with you, renz. The volume of ocean water cannot possibly cover the highest mountain, like mount everest. Scientist mistakenly see it as the water being raised up so high that it covered the whole earth and even the highest mountain. This posses a lot of problems because where did all the sheer volume of water come from? There are correct in saying that the flood didn't happen. The volume of water is still the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Geological evidence shows no evidence of any global flood. This is correct.

Now, the puzzle starts here - how did it manage to cover the whole Earth? Stop and think for a moment.

I believe, scientist are looking at it in reverse.

This is the problem I have already tackled with my theory and have updated it 10 times already.

Kindly read it. Thanks.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

There were no huge mountains before the flood, they were caused by the flood.

Do you have absolutely no idea of the forces involved here?

See the way the rock there is bending? Do you think it formed that way on the ground? No, of course not, your world starts flat.

That rock was bent, molded like clay, clay that is hard enough to shatter your teeth. The amount of energy that went into that, happening over a period of weeks or days as you seem to think is possible, would NOT DO THAT. It would make the rock MELT.

Here's the grand canyon. It could not have formed over the span of a few days. Know why? Because it doesn't take an entire ocean of water flowing past to make that sort of indentation through several layers of sandstone and shale, it takes trillions of tons of water flowing, over the span of millions of years, or else things would start melting because of the heat released by that amount of geologic change.

Remember the Tsunami that occured:
Informative graphic
Note the numerous large circles, those are all earthquakes at magnitude 8, the energy involved is something like 10x that of the bomb that the US exploded over Hiroshima in each. The Tsunami event occured because of fault line under Indonesia rising up 50 feet. What you propose is tantamount to saying that Teratons of explosive, that is Million million tons, were set off accross the planet.

All of this leads to enough energy being released that anything on the planet will melt or vaporize.