[_ Old Earth _] The Geologic Column

[Barbarian]

No as a matter of fact humanists philosophers agnostics atheists and scientists have been trying to make a monkey out of Jesus for quite some time..

We've had some atheists and humanists here. Not one of them said anything about making a monkey out of Jesus.

But you did.

i found this interesting evolution stems from a pagan religion..

You've been misled about that, too. Let's take a look...

As for ‘modern’ evolutionary theory, anthropologist Henry Fairfield Osborn, longtime director of the American Museum of Natural History reveals that Darwin is not its’ originator but rather ancient pagans are.

Pagans discovered a lot of things, like heliocentrism (Aristarchus of Samos), atoms (Democritus of Abdera), the circumference of the Earth (Ptolemy of Alexandria), and so on. However, these scientists did not attribute these things to gods. As Democritus laughed at the habit of attributing anything unknown to gods.

In the introduction to his history of evolutionism Osborn wrote:
“When I began the search for anticipations of the evolutionary theory….I was led back to the Greek natural philosophers and I was astonished to find how many of the pronounced and basic features of the Darwinian theory were anticipated even as far back as the seventh century B.C.” (Osborn, From the Greeks to Darwin, p. xi)

As you see, the Greek philosophers, especially the Ionians, who looked to investigate nature, were not theologians. It was science, not religion.

But yes, the pagan scientists learned much and passed it on. Compare the careful work and observation of Aristarchus, learning that the Earth orbits the Sun, with Luther's and Calvin's insistence that the Bible clearly says the Sun goes around the Earth. Those unfortunate men let their own imaginations re-interpret God's word, and then declare their own preferences to be holy scripture.

As do today's YE creationists.

 

[turnorburn]

https://encrypted.google.com/search....34.mobile-heirloom-serp..1.1.206._hGfIWELTA4

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Yes, we know creationists try to rewrite history, just as they try to rewrite the Bible. Doesn't matter.

Aristarchus of Samos (/ˌærəˈstɑrkəs/; Greek: Ἀρίσταρχος Aristarkhos; c. 310 – c. 230 BC) was an ancient Greek astronomer and mathematician who presented the first known model that placed the Sun at the center of the known universe with the Earth revolving around it (see Solar system). He was influenced by Philolaus of Croton, but he identified the "central fire" with the Sun, and put the other planets in their correct order of distance around the Sun. As Anaxagoras before him, he also suspected that the stars were just other bodies like the sun. His astronomical ideas were often rejected in favor of the geocentric theories of Aristotle and Ptolemy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos

While some Christians like Luther and Calvin claimed that the Bible clearly indicates that the Sun goes around the Earth, a "pagan" scientist nearly a thousand years earlier, showed that the Earth goes around the Sun.

Democritus (/dɪˈmɒkrɪtəs/; Greek: Δημόκριτος Dēmókritos, meaning "chosen of the people"; c. 460 – c. 370 BC) was an influential Ancient Greek pre-Socratic philosopher primarily remembered today for his formulation of an atomic theory of the universe.

Democritus was born in Abdera, Thrace around 460 BC. His exact contributions are difficult to disentangle from those of his mentor Leucippus, as they are often mentioned together in texts. Their speculation on atoms, taken from Leucippus, bears a passing and partial resemblance to the nineteenth-century understanding of atomic structure that has led some to regard Democritus as more of a scientist than other Greek philosophers; however, their ideas rested on very different bases. Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus was nevertheless well known to his fellow northern-born philosopher Aristotle. Plato is said to have disliked him so much that he wished all his books burned. Many consider Democritus to be the "father of modern science".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democritus

Eratosthenes of Cyrene (/ɛrəˈtɒsθəniːz/; Greek: Ἐρατοσθένης, IPA: [eratostʰénɛːs]; c. 276 BC[1] – c. 195/194 BC[2]) was a Greek mathematician, geographer, poet, astronomer, and music theorist. He was a man of learning, becoming the chief librarian at the Library of Alexandria. He invented the discipline of geography, including the terminology used today.[3]


He is best known for being the first person to calculate the circumference of the Earth, which he did by applying a measuring system using stades, or the length of stadia during that time period. His calculation was remarkably accurate. He was also the first to calculate the tilt of the Earth's axis (again with remarkable accuracy). Additionally, he may have accurately calculated the distance from the Earth to the Sun and invented the leap day.[4] He created the first map of the world incorporating parallels and meridians, based on the available geographical knowledge of the era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes (note, I incorrectly attributed this to Ptolemy, a different Hellenistic astronomer)

So you see, creationists are the modern equivalent of the geocentrists who, like the creationists today, claimed the Bible said things that it clearly does not.

 

[turnorburn]

Barbarian said: Humans aren't monkeys, BTW we're apes.

Gods word says..

I Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

We have the flesh of men not apes, how many Christians on these boards think that we have the flesh of apes?

Evolution is a religion and should be taught as such..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

But as you learned, chimpanzees and humans are biologically, genetically, and biochemically more like each other than either is to other apes. That's not debatable; it's just a fact.

Your passage doesn't deny that fact. Biologically, we are apes. Of course, that doesn't mean we are merely apes. We happen to have an immortal soul and the knowledge of good and evil, which makes us like God. As God says in Genesis, we were brought forth from the earth like other animals, but then God added something that made all the difference.

Man's pride makes him resist the part in the Bible that says we were created like other animals. It's pointless. We are not our bodies; we are called to become something much more.

Evolution is a religion and should be taught as such.

Most creationists have given up on that story. No one ever really believed it. Science depends on evidence. Creationism, being a new religion, depends on faith. Huge difference. Here's a way to show that:

Ask a scientist why he accepts evolution. If he says "because Darwin said so." It's faith. If he starts citing evidence, it's science.

Easy.

 

[turnorburn]

Barbarian says: "Man's pride makes him resist the part in the Bible that says we were created like other animals"

Your attempting to refute Gods word not mine..

I Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

What was that you were saying about mans pride?

tob

 

[Barbarian]

As you learned, the verse doesn't say what you want it to. Fact is, humans and chimpanzees are more closely related to each other than either is to other apes. No way to deny it.

Your pride won't let you accept the fact. But it remains true.

 

[turnorburn]

As you learned, the verse doesn't say what you want it to. Fact is, humans and chimpanzees are more closely related to each other than either is to other apes. No way to deny it.

Your pride won't let you accept the fact. But it remains true.

That verses certainly does say what you think it says ""Jesus, in becoming man, assumed the body of an evolved ape"

I Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

No matter how man tries to wrest Gods word it always remains the same.. Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever..

tob

*edit: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Barbarian]

You're wrong about that, too. Jesus became man in historical time. That was not eternal. And yes, He became fully human, with everything that entails.

 

[turnorburn]

Why do i need to keep repeating myself, your statement.. "Jesus, in becoming man, assumed the body of an evolved ape" doesn't agree with Gods word.. I Corinthians

its a religion of some sort but its not Gods word

I Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Since you won't accept God's word on it, or the evidence He has given you to understand, you'll just have to disagree.

 

[Rick W]

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/what-would-it-mean.58683/page-2

Few things.

I believe I can safely assume Mary as human in which case she too would have "ape", "primate" whatever as an early ancestor if the claim that humans have said primate as forefathers. The implication of "ape" in Christ's bloodline can be drawn whether intended or not or whether directly spoken or not. It is that implication, a possible unintended consequence, that ToB chose to address.

Since you won't accept God's word on it, or the evidence He has given you to understand, you'll just have to disagree.

ToB's rebuttal to an implied conclusion from a declaration made in no way means ToB does not accept God's Word. That accusation made in public is against the ToS. And please keep in mind that yes, this is a Christian site.

Need I remind you you are on a Christian site? Jesus Christ is the King Of Kings and Lord of Lords. Be honest. At least one mod here objects to you even talking about it. So hijacking this thread to do so is probably not a wise move. Learn from it, and move on.

It has gone somewhat off topic and I'm sorry I haven't been around much.
ToB's wisdom is definitely off topic and opinions of other member's personal characteristics are not something we support. Also, If ToB chooses to move on or not is his prerogative and his alone.

What I see here in an unintended implication being denied simply because it was not directly spoken. That's what an implication is. If that implication of "Ape" in Christ's bloodline through Mary must be denied or disputed instead of being openly supported by way of the evidence suggested (humans are evolved apes) then there appears to be a problem of that implication on both sides of this debate.


To both Barbarian and ToB,
No more personal attacks please. This is a Christian site and I believe I speak of the entire staff when I say we'd like to keep it that way.