The Glory as of the only begotten of the Father !

[savedbygrace57]

Jn 1:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Notice, not as the only begotten of Mary, but as the Only begotten of the Father..

The Lord Jesus Christ had as God Man a Glory communicated to Him before the world began as the begotten Son of the Father..

He refers to this Glory here in jn 17:

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Notice here it is the Man Jesus Christ here saying Father, and referencing something before the world was, meaning that He existed before the world was as a Son to a Father..The question is, does this refer to His Deity or Manhood ? Does Deity have a Father ? Deity does not have a Father, a generator..So it was as the Man Christ Jesus [1 tim 2:5] that He had a communicated Glory from His Father before the world was..

Now this Glory was manifested to three of the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration see matt 17 and it is to this manifestation, which John the writer of this gospel refers to, when He saw this Glory :

Matt 17:


1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light

This vision was not just something of what Jesus would be in the future, but of what He had been in the past before His humiliation..

I believe also that Moses who was with him on the mount here had seen Him, Jesus christ before in the OT times in a mount ex 24:


10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

13And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.

14And he said unto the elders, Tarry ye here for us, until we come again unto you: and, behold, Aaron and Hur are with you: if any man have any matters to do, let him come unto them.

15And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

16And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. cp Matt 17:1 where six days is also mentioned !

They here, on the Mount beheld Him [His Glory] as the only begotten of the Father, of which our text speaks about..

This Glory was veiled for the purpose of His earthly mission..to become in the likeness or form of a servant..

In the Mount of matt 17, the disciples seen a glimpse of this:

phil 2:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

That was His look as being in the Form of God or as the writer of Hebrews states it heb 1:3a

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

This is speaking of Him in His post and preincarnated God Manhood person..

I think it should be no question that Jesus Christ was begotten before being sent, for this is surely indicated by such verses as :

Jn 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 jn 4:

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

He was sent as the Only begotten Son, not to be the Only begotten Son by mary..He was God's only begotten Son, before becoming Mary's child through the virgin birth isa 9:

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He was A Son Given before being a child is born, He was a everlasting Father [ of a seed] before being a child is born..

He was rich before becoming poor 2 cor 8:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

He was the Heir of God as the firstborn rom 8:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

He was sent as the heir matt 21:

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

His heirship did not come from mary nor from the resurrection, He was the Heir of the world and all things before the world was..heb 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This appointment took place before the world was..


And that too constituted His Glory He had before the world was Jn 17:5..

 

[seve]

Here's what Jesus spoke or declared in the Garden of Gethsemane.... in relation to your topic:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the Glory which I had with Thee BEFORE the world was." John 17:5

Glory is Brightness, a Physical trait. Jesus is speaking of His Physical Brightness which He shared with the Father, Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8.

The brightness of the Glory of the Lord is a physical manifestation which shows that the Son (YHVH or Jesus) came forth into this physical world from the invisible realm of his Father-- when God spoke the WORD in the beginning and said,... LET THERE BE LIGHT- Gen.1:3.

Without the Jesus,- the True Light that shineth in heaven in the beginning - there could not have been anything Made that was Made. Because anything created that which is physical is Made by the physical hands of the the Son - YHVH or Jesus.

If one believes that In the beginning God created our Heaven BEFORE the 1st Day, then the Words of Jesus would seem to be in error. If one believes that the 1st Firmament or Heaven was formed on the 2nd Day, then it would agree with Jesus, and would show that Jesus came into the World Before the 1st Heaven was formed.

The brightness of the glory of the Lord is brighter than the noon day sun. Scripture is readily available for references.

God Bless

 

[savedbygrace57]

Many in professing Christendom will agree that the God Man Jesus Christ existed in a decretive or virtual manner, but not in a actual sense.

What is meant by virtually, many espouse that God merely purposed and planned the existence His existence before creation in His Mind and decree, but that he [ The Mediator] had no actual existence before the incarnation.. Again this is called a decreed or virtual existence..

This is the position of most professed believers in Jesus Christ..

But the question is whether or not Jesus Christ actually existed before creation in a real sense, or merely purposed to exist ?

Such scriptures as eph 3:

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Shed light on this important question..For Paul here is revealing a mystery about Jesus Christ, that He existed, in that with that existence , all things were created by Him..

I am of the mindset that the God Man Mediator very well did exist before creation and that God the Father did actually generate His only begotten Son into existence and office before the creation..

Another passage which speaks of wisdom [ Jesus Christ 1 cor 1:24] is prov 8 and this personification of wisdom being brought forth, begotten before the LORDS works of old, and for the purpose of those very works..

prov 8:

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.


23I was set up [anointed into office]from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. [ His mediatorial office ]

The Septuagint reads as follows prov 8:


22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth:

24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth:

25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

Note: This cannot refer to Gods literal wisdom, for its not beget, but eternal as He is..

26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited tracks, and the highest inhabited parts of the world.

27 When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him; and when he prepared his throne upon the winds:

28 and when he strengthened the clouds above; and when he secured the fountains of the earth:

29 and when he strengthened the foundations of the earth:

30 I was by him, suiting myself to him, I was that wherein he took delight; and daily I rejoiced in his presence continually.

31 For he rejoiced when he had completed the world, and rejoiced among the children of men.

So does the scripture teach the actual existence of the God Man Mediator ? Yes, I believe so by what has just been presented before.

It needs to be kept in mind, that there is a difference between his actual generation before the world was made in the unseen universe or world, and His manifested generation in the seen world, through the incarnation.

One of The reasons why Jesus Christ came into this world, of the seen, was to be seen or made known to the elect of God, what God did in the unseen world, this is brought to light in the gospel..

2 tim 1:

8Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus [who actually existed] before the world began,


Jn 17:

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Now ask yourself regarding jn 17 24, did the father love His Son actually before the foundation, or just virtually ?
__________________

 

[savedbygrace57]

I know many would object to prov 8 being Jesus Christ personified as Gods wisdom, but most writers and commentators in Christendom do agree with this assessment of wisdom in prov 8.

But the important question is did God the Father generate or bring forth a Divine Son [ Deity ] or A Man Son as in Mediator 1 tim 2:5..

The prevailing thought in Christendom is that God the Father generated another Divine Being, The Son of God..

This concept is seen here in the Nicene creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

They mean by this that the Son of God in His Deity was begotten of the Father..

They believe this action brought forth the Word as in Jn 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In doing this they deprive the eternal Logos of His own Self Existence, which I believe is a terrible error of the Antichrist..

One who is Self existent could not have a cause..which is exactly what begotten means..its to be cause to exist..

This therefore is not what prov 8 is referring to, it cannot be the Eternal Son, the Logos, who is Self existent, Self Sufficient, and Immutable as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit..

hence, it can only refer to His begotten Mediatorial Manhood as the Head of the body, the church..col 1:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning

The Man Jesus Christ in His precreation existence, was brought forth, begotten of the Father into His first form as the Divine equal in rank in this form phil 2:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

God the Word was not begotten or generated, but is and was self existent, sufficient, and immutable.

__________________

 

[savedbygrace57]

Paul Teaches that the Man Jesus christ existed in two forms..We, believers are exhorted to be of the same mind of Jesus christ was. He existed in His First form as the Form of God, as Gods equal, but made of himself of no reputation, but emptied himself and took on a second form, a servant. Now did paul exhort believers to be in the same mind as the Deity of Jesus christ or His manhood ?
__________________

 

[glorydaz]

I, personally, don't see wisdom in Prov. 8 as being a depiction of the Son of God.
The book of Proverbs personifies wisdom several times, with never a mention of diety.

Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh...the Alpha and the Omega...the great I AM.
He has no moment of creation, being God from the very beginning.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul Teaches that the Man Jesus christ existed in two forms..We, believers are exhorted to be of the same mind of Jesus christ was. He existed in His First form as the Form of God, as Gods equal, but made of himself of no reputation, but emptied himself and took on a second form, a servant. Now did paul exhort believers to be in the same mind as the Deity of Jesus christ or His manhood ?
__________________

That's a tricky question.

I wouldn't think we should aspire to have the mind of the Deity...Lucifer tried that already.
I also wouldn't think we're to know the future, for example, unless the Lord specifically wanted us to.
Man is still too constrained by his own fleshly nature to be able to put on the mind of God.

But Jesus had the wisdom of God while still a man, so we do have access to that.
We need no more than what Jesus had while on earth.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Good question to ponder, however. :amen

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

, personally, don't see wisdom in Prov. 8 as being a depiction of the Son of God.

Thats ok..

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Lord Jesus Christ in His first form existed as God Man before the foundation of the world..when He was setup as the Mediator between God and the elect men who would be created in Adam

1 tim 2:

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would be only wise and prudent of God to establish Mens Mediator first, in preparation for the creation of men..

And it was at this time, that He received communicated Glory from the Father, which He refers to in jn 17:5..

God gave Him this Glory before the world was, He Loved Him before the world was Jn 17:

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Now, after the incarnation, while on earth in the form of a servant, He did display or manifest this Glory He had with the Father before the world was, this manifestation was mostly made manifest on the Mount Matt 17 : 1..

He was resurrected in His body of Glory, but He did conceal it while on earth forty days , but will again manifest it at His Glorious Second Coming..

In His second form, Jesus existed as a servant, but in both forms, He was God Man..It was His existence in the form of a servant which began in the womb of the virgin Mary, it was then He came forth in the manger..

But He existed in the Form of God, before existing in the form of a servant..
__________________

 

[savedbygrace57]

A recap of this thread !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From everlasting, God the Father did generate or beget His Only Begotten Son, which was and is The Man Jesus Christ, the Mediator between God and Men. By a Eternal hypostatic union, God the Word made Jesus Christ the Man Mediator Divine or gave Him His Deity, with all the rights and entitlements that belong to God, Deity ! The Lord Jesus Christ therefore existed as God Man, being in the Form of God, and as the Divine equal before the creation of the world.. It was imperative that the Father establish Jesus Christ as the Mediator God Man before the foundation of the world. Hence the God Man Jesus Christ had become the medium by whom the Father works, and creates and manifests Himself, and Jesus Christ has been that medium since before the creation..

Heb 13:

8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This verse makes manifest the antiquity and duration of His God Man Mediatorial-ship..

 

[glorydaz]

The Lord Jesus Christ in His first form existed as God Man before the foundation of the world..when He was setup as the Mediator between God and the elect men who would be created in Adam_

Let's recap correctly, shall we?
Jesus was not God Man in the beginning...He was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was made flesh and dwelt among us.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He called all men to repentance and died for the sins of the whole world...not just the elect men.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Lord Jesus Christ in His first form existed as God Man before the foundation of the world..when He was setup as the Mediator between God and the elect men who would be created in Adam_

Let's recap correctly, shall we?
Jesus was not God Man in the beginning...He was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was made flesh and dwelt among us.
[quote="John 1:14":10mff92v]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He called all men to repentance and died for the sins of the whole world...not just the elect men.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[/quote:10mff92v]

You have rejected a lot of truth I shared, you still will be held accountable in the day of Judgment..

 

[glorydaz]

You have rejected a lot of truth I shared, you still will be held accountable in the day of Judgment..

So far, I've seen no truth in what you've shared. I see a lot of misunderstanding of what's written in the Word, and a lot of ignoring of the bulk of scripture. I don't fear the judgment day...I know Jesus is God and I'm written in the Lamb's book of life. I happen to see the Word of God as the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. All of it...not just a few select verses. I also know Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...not just a select few. I refuse to limit His work on the cross based on one verse where God hates the workers of iniquity. It's the sin God hates...not the sinner. God loved us while we were yet in our sin...that's why He came.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

So far, I've seen no truth in what you've shared.

So, you still are accountable wether you had eyes to see or not.. :yes

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

So far, I've seen no truth in what you've shared.

So, you still are accountable wether you had eyes to see or not.. :yes

I'm content with the truth of the Word, itself....not so much with what some may call truth in spite of what the Word says. I find it works out better that way.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

So far, I've seen no truth in what you've shared.

So, you still are accountable wether you had eyes to see or not.. :yes

I'm content with the truth of the Word, itself....not so much with what some may call truth in spite of what the Word says. I find it works out better that way.

I dont see where you believe the Truth, but the opposite, you contradict it and reject it..

 

[glorydaz]

I'm content with the truth of the Word, itself....not so much with what some may call truth in spite of what the Word says. I find it works out better that way.

I dont see where you believe the Truth, but the opposite, you contradict it and reject it..

I believe when the Word says ALL MEN and ALL THE WORLD, it means what it says.
I don't tack on "The Elect" to the verses that speak of God loving the whole world.

You have one verse...the workers of iniquity.
There are hundreds that speak of God's love for all men.
He died for the sins of the whole world...not just a select few.
I hate it when someone limits the work of the cross to suit some doctrine of men.
I will speak against it at every turn. You can put it in every thread and I will continue to say it's error.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

I believe when the Word says ALL MEN and ALL THE WORLD, it means what it says.

I dont believe you understand those words biblically..

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

I believe when the Word says ALL MEN and ALL THE WORLD, it means what it says.

I dont believe you understand those words biblically..

I don't think you understand that God's benevolent merciful love is unlimited. God's very nature is love. He can not be limited by man's understanding. If your child committed murder, would you love him any less as you turned him in to the authorities? A parent's love is not as great as the love of God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Our Lord longs to gather all men under His wing, and mourns over those who refuse.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Even after the rich young ruler refused to repent...

Then Jesus beholding him loved him,

You can deny God loves the unrepentant sinner, but God's love is bigger than your personal understanding.

God is merciful to all, but not all aspects of God's love come to fruition...though He takes no pleasure in judging the unrepentant sinner, His very nature demands He does. Nothing but God's own sovereign good pleasure compels Him to love sinners. Nothing but His own sovereign will governs His love. That has to be true, since there is certainly nothing in any sinner worthy of even the smallest degree of divine love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that those mercies flow out of God's boundless love? It is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners. The reason our Lord commanded us to love our enemies is "in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). Jesus clearly characterized His Father as One who loves even those who purposefully set themselves at enmity against Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

I don't think you understand that God's benevolent merciful love is unlimited

Its unlimited to His chosen people..for God declares He is sovereign and discriminate with His mercy of salvation Rom 9:

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.