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THE GOD EXPERIEMENT

T

TheStudent

Guest
If we replace the word Jesus by "God" in the Bible we gather that:
 
"God" was created from the seed of David (Romans 1:3)

The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew 1:1)

The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke 2:21)

The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew 2:1)

The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew 13:55)

The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew 21:5)

The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew 8:20)

"God" paid his tax regularly. (Matthew 17:24-27)

The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30)

A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke 22:43)

The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke 4:13)

"God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

"God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John 11:53-54)
 
The 'Divinity' of Christ

read it all:

1. Begotten
The Bible:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Greek Words
Below is a copy of the response received from The George Washington University:

John 3:16 and John 1:18 each have the word monogenes in Greek. This word ordinarily means "of a single kind". As a result, "unique" is a good translation. The reason you sometimes find a translation that renders the word as "only begotten" has to do with an ancient heresy within the church. In response to the Arian claim that Jesus was made but not begotten, Jerome (4th century) translated the Greek term monogenes into Latin as unigenitus ("only begotten").
(Paul B. Duff,  22 April, 1992)

 Professor Duff's response was based upon Anchor Bible, volume 29, page 13-14. The Greek term for "begotten" is gennao as found in (Mathew 1:2), which John did not use.

 The Only Begotten ?
Is Jesus the only begotten son ? We read in the Bible

God said to David, "You are my son today I have begotten you" (Psalm 2:7)

2. One
Jesus said: 'I and the Father are one' (John 10:30)

The word 'one' does not have to mean "co-equal" in status. If one wishes to argue that the word one supports their claim for Jesus being "co-equal" in status with his Father, consider the following:

Jesus said: ' I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.' (John 14:28).

Jesus said: ' Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.' (John 13:16).

During his ministry, Jesus repeatedly said he was sent by his Father.

Jesus said to Mary:
'...go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father...' (John 20:17).

This verse demonstrates that the usage of term 'Father' was purely metaphorical. As for Jesus being a "unique son", he, unlike us, was created without a physical Father.

'...Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint,...' (Acts 4:27 - New American Standard Bible).

This leaves no room for doubt that Jesus was a 'Servant of God' and anointed by Him. There are other verses which declare Jesus as God's Servant.

When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no more blind, kept saying; "I am he" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Further more, the beggar when questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews:
"And he said, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17).

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus
"fell on his face and prayed, saying:
'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me." (Mathew 26:39).

All the prophets, including Jesus used to "fall on their faces" like we Muslims do, while praying. See; Abraham (Genesis 17:3); Job (Job 1:20); Moses and Aaron (Numbers 16:22); Jesus (Mathew 26:39).
 
The Muhammad experiment :D :D :D

A few verses from the Quran switching the places of “Muslims†and “non-Muslimsâ€Â. This is what we get:

  • We will cast terror into the hearts of Muslims. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. (S 8:12)

    Let not the non-Muslims take for friends or helpers the Muslims. (S 3:28)

    Rouse the non-Muslims to the fight against Muslims. (S 8:65)

    Then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them, (S 9:5)

    Fight the Muslims, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. (S 9:14)

    O ye the non-Muslims take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Islam. (S 9:23)

    O ye the non-Muslims! Truly the Muslims are unclean. (S 9:28)

    O ye non-Muslims! fight the Muslims who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you. (S 9:123)

    Therefore, when ye meet the Muslims, smite at their necks; At length. (S 47:4)
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Source
 
Hi Student: Your entire first post is an argument which brings us to the conclusion that Jesus was a man who did what humans do- be born, eat, go to the bathroom, work, sleep, be tempted, and grow weary. (yet sin not as we have).

We have stated categorically that Jesus was a human being, come in the form of man, and so you have argued with us to a conclusion we have always held. Against the gnostics, we said He was not just spiritual. Against the Ebionites, we argued that He was divine. Against the nestorians, we argued that He was God while in Mary's womb. Against the Monophysites, we argued that He had wills both human and divine.

And against the Muslims, we made it clear that the Spirit of Christ did not die on the cross- only His body did.

One last item:
Why do you Muslims always quote Matthew 15:24 and ignore Matthew 28:19? I mean, if I was reading a war story, and orders were given at first to go only into village X, but later orders were given to capture the entire region, I would not ignore the later orders, but perceive the strategy.

--------------------------------------------------------
That's post one. Post two:
Regarding Psalm 2:7-do you really believe the Lord was speaking these things to David? Did the Lord then, in the next verse, verse 8, promise "the uttermost parts of the earth" to David? Of course not. Psalm 2 is CLEARLY a Messianic psalm.

regarding John 10:30- this text is not the sole scripture relating to Christ's equal status with the father- consider Phillipians 2:6. As far as Jesus being lesser than the Father- I addressed that in the Word of God thread.

It is most appropriate to prostrate ourselves before the King. I do so daily- yet I am not a prophet. But jesus was a prophet, inasmuch as He 'spoke forth.' (Gr. 'prophetes'). He was, and is, much more than a prophet, as Peter testifies:
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Click to expand...
Flesh and blood did not reveal this- the Spirit of God did. You see, MEN say that He is a prophet, or Elijah- but the Spirit of God reveals Him for who He truly is: the alpha, the omega, the first and the last, the ruler of all.

Truly He is Risen.
Iakovos
 
orthodox please explain to me:

Jesus said: ' I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.' (John 14:28).

God needed to be circumcised!! what a thought!:
"And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke 2:21)

'One last item:
Why do you Muslims always quote Matthew 15:24 and ignore Matthew 28:19? I mean, if I was reading a war story, and orders were given at first to go only into village X, but later orders were given to capture the entire region, I would not ignore the later orders, but perceive the strategy. '

try to explain this to a non-muslim who screams about the 'contradictions' in the quran. ignorant minds cant see.
 
TheStudent said:
orthodox please explain to me:

Jesus said: ' I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.' (John 14:28).
Click to expand...
Hi: as I stated in the Word of God thread, I love my wife, and my love for her, my words are incapable of carrying. My words cannot carry my word. You see, my word is me, and I my word. What I have to communicate to my loved ones, for example, comes up as a communication impulse, a desire for fellowship and communion. Now my 'word' - my expression of self- will say what I want it to, and only that.
Therefore, my word is of the same essence as me, is equal to me, yet is obedient to me and less than I- in the sense of flow of authority from the source. But make no mistake, my word is me, even if my words fail to be understood.

Jesus Christ truthfully spoke when He said the Father was greater than He, in this respect, and He spoke rightly when He said He could only say what the Father said, and do what He saw the Father doing.

If you think this all odd and poetic, then consider this analogy: When you are alone, what do you hear? You hear yourself think. Are there two of you? Yes and no. Obviously the one speaking and the one listening both truly exist- yet there is no doubt that one is just the same as the other, and does NOT comprise two people.

No. It is 'self' and 'self-awareness of self.'

There are analogies we could use from physics, as opposed to psychology/philosophy, but suffice to say that we know that our expression of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit is as true and accurate as we can state: but not exhaustively descriptive. Also, we know God to be truly One, just as I know the guys conversing in my head to be One.

I hope that makes sense.

The Student said:
God needed to be circumcised!! what a thought!:
"And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke 2:21)
Click to expand...
Do not forget that He was also dedicated at the Temple AND baptised.
Jesus was circumcized in accordance with the covenant of the people He was born into. Likewise, He was dedicated in accordance with Torah. These both deal with the reality that He was a man, as we have stated from the beginning.

So why baptism? He who was without sin, needing to have sins washed away? No, the river and all creation needed to be touched by the Sinless One. He baptized creation with His holy and pure body when He submitted to the baptism of repentance," that all righteousness be fulfilled."

Likewise, he who was without sin baptised away our sin by submitting to the death of a sinner, and became sin, that we might live without sin. He did not die only that we would get our ledger of sin clear. Rather, He confronted decay by washing the river with His body, He confronted pride by submitting to imperfect hands and taking on imperfect flesh, He confronted violence by refusing to strike back, He confronted death by dying and rising from death, He confronted the law o sin by negating it in Himself. He did not have to satisfy the law by dying- he defeated the demands of the Law by taking them on Himself. Therefore, death and sin no longer rule. For as through Moses came the Law, grace and Truth through Christ.

TheStudent said:
One last item:
Why do you Muslims always quote Matthew 15:24 and ignore Matthew 28:19? I mean, if I was reading a war story, and orders were given at first to go only into village X, but later orders were given to capture the entire region, I would not ignore the later orders, but perceive the strategy. '

try to explain this to a non-muslim who screams about the 'contradictions' in the quran. ignorant minds cant see.
Click to expand...

Point well taken. What we have is the unfolding plan and revelation of God. Why was divorce allowed by Moses, yet forbidden by Christ? He explains to us: "Becuase of hardness of hearts." Are there not hard hearts now? Yes, but there is a remedy for hard hearts now: the person of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, transforming us and circumcizing hearts.

I do not argue that the Koran has contraddictions- I am disiniterested in senseless quarreling- I desire the words of Life. Christ gives those. I acknowledge that there are truths to be found everywhere, and many paths leading to God- yet I believe what Christ said, which is that all of those paths lead through One Door- Him.

peace, friend.
Iakovos
 
and this leads us to a closed door.

you readily accept the 'humanisation' of God whilst I cannot. to me it is illogical, regardess of what is written in the quran. I cant believe that the CREATOR of EVERYTHING has a need to lower Himself to the level of His creation. the CREATOR who put everything into creation just by His single Word, 'BE'.

this is POWER, true power.

to call God a 'man' is an insult to Him.

The Almighty is just that, Almighty. never sleeping. never eating. never breathing. yet He is more ALIVE than all of us. Allah is The REAL. why does THE REAL have to lower Himself to the temproary?

we can not understand or comprehend God fully. none of us have the intelligence, knowledge or wisdom. so let us treat God with RESPECT. let us HONOUR Him. let us not call on Him as we would call on our brothers or fathers. do you worship man or God? After all, He will ask you and He will require it of you.

God is ONE.
 
TheStudent said:
God is ONE.
Click to expand...



To quote Alan Watts,


"We speak of him rightly as one, but then go on to reason from the term as if it were to be used in an exclusive and privative sense."

"Our logic, our method of reasoning is entirely dualistic, and therefore cannot without contradiction treat of a Being who surpasses duality. The unity of God is therefore seen as opposed to multiplicity in God. God has no opposite, and yet we apply to him the term unity in a sense which has an opposite, for unity as we conceive it is unthinkable without the contrast of multiplicity."

"if the unity of God is truly all-inclusive and non-dual, it must include diversity and distinction as well as one-ness; otherwise the principle of diversity would stand over against God as something opposite to and outside him."


I think Watts is basically saying that although there is one God, if you think of God as "one", it is a limited kind of Deity you are thinking of. That is, the God in question would be confined within, "the dualistic and mutually exclusive opposition of one and many".

:D
 
Indeed Christ opens doors that no man can shut, and closes doors that no man can open.

The story of God's condescension is not one of us bringing Him down to our level (humanization), but is rather one of Him raising us up by meeting with us face-to-face (divinization).

When I wish to speak to children, I do not stand to my full 191 cm- rather, I take a seat at eye level, or if I am intimate enough, such as with one of my own, I might lift them to my level.

God's message to the light was 'be.' God's message to Adam was more involved- did you forget that God once walked in the graden with Adam and Eve? Did you forget that God fashioned Eve from the rib of the one He said was made in "our image and likeness?" God is more than our Creator- He is our Father and our Tutor, our Mentor and Comforter.

I worship God all the more because He would notice dust like me- but moreover, He so loved the world that He gave of His own being for it, and came down from the heavenlies. He had done so before, with Avraham and with Moses, with Enoch and with Jacob, with the three youths in Chaldee, with Joshua and with Elijah.

In each of those cases God Himself came down- not just His angel. He has been visiting man "throughout all the generations." But in the fulness of time, He became flesh and tabernacled among us.

That's all scripture, my friend, Old Testament and New, and it's straight up truth.

Blessings
Iakovos
 
'God's message to Adam was more involved- did you forget that God once walked in the garden with Adam and Eve?'

please tell me,if this is true, what does God look like? or was this 'walking' only a metaphor? or was the Garden really in the spiritual realm of Paradise, as Islam teaches, and not in the physical world?

In Islam, we are taught that whatever your mind imagines God to look like, it is false. We do not have the intelligence, knowledge or wisdom to fully comprehend Gods likeness.

Yes everything is known by its opposites, except God. This is because of His ONENESS. as He created male and female,light and dark,ying and yang, mercy and wrath, He does not have an opposite of Himself. what is the opposite of THE REAL?no matter what we say here, The Truth will remain as always. tell me what is the opposite of an Entity that is Eternal and exists OUTSIDE of existence? yet:

'We created man and We [even] know the promptings of his mind. We are closer to him than his jugular vein'
Quran 57:4

truly God is capable of ALL things. seperate from His creation, yet intrininsicly wrapped in our every heartbeat. this, i believe is how Allah operates. He has already defined the universe and everything that will occour in it. Yet it is Allah that keeps our hearts beating.
 
...Again, you're basing an argument on the deceived speculation of one man. I agree that no man can be sure what God looks like, but Genesis teaches us that he made man in his image.
 
TheStudent said:
'God's message to Adam was more involved- did you forget that God once walked in the garden with Adam and Eve?'

please tell me,if this is true, what does God look like? or was this 'walking' only a metaphor? or was the Garden really in the spiritual realm of Paradise, as Islam teaches, and not in the physical world?
Click to expand...
And metaphorically God spoke to Moses "face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." In our time, the near-atheist Jesus Seminar takes votes to decide which parts of the bible to take literally, and which to disregard as the rantings of primitive, superstitious people. People see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe- and no more.

The Student said:
In Islam, we are taught that whatever your mind imagines God to look like, it is false. We do not have the intelligence, knowledge or wisdom to fully comprehend Gods likeness.
Click to expand...
yes, I'm fully aware of the intense iconoclasm of Islam. We do not believe that anyone could perceive even the smallest portion of the fullness of God- but then again, he does reveal Himself where and how He will. He appeared as a burning bush, a column of flame, a small, still voice, an angel (to Avram and to Jacob). It is nothing for Him to become enfleshed and show us His glory. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
The Student said:
Yes everything is known by its opposites, except God. This is because of His ONENESS. as He created male and female,light and dark,ying and yang, mercy and wrath, He does not have an opposite of Himself. what is the opposite of THE REAL?
Click to expand...
Sounding a whole lot like Plato there, sir. You familiar with the forms of Plato? Christians consider Christ in terms of what Plato had said, and used simlar language to describe how this present life is a shadow on a cave wall, but in heaven, the real, the true.

The epistle to the Hebrews delves into this at length, contrasting earthly and heavenly tabernacles, earthly and heavenly gatherings (synaxis), and so forth.

The Student said:
no matter what we say here, The Truth will remain as always. tell me what is the opposite of an Entity that is Eternal and exists OUTSIDE of existence? yet:

'We created man and We [even] know the promptings of his mind. We are closer to him than his jugular vein'
Quran 57:4
Click to expand...
That's a narrow summary of what the Jewish scriptures already said with far surpassing beauty two thousand years before the Quran. Reference Genesis 1-3, Psalm 139. Add to that a doxology worthy of the King in Psalm 103. As to nearness, understand that Paul and John made it clear that God is not only near, but in. "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

The Student said:
truly God is capable of ALL things. seperate from His creation, yet intrininsicly wrapped in our every heartbeat. this, i believe is how Allah operates. He has already defined the universe and everything that will occour in it. Yet it is Allah that keeps our hearts beating.
Click to expand...
He knows the number of hairs upon our head, and every thought before it enters our minds. So, as David asked, what is man that God is mindful of him? "Behold what love has the Father, that He would call us His children."
 
'He appeared as a burning bush'

did He really? or was this bush made to burn as a sign to Moses?

'Sounding a whole lot like Plato there, sir. You familiar with the forms of Plato? Christians consider Christ in terms of what Plato had said, and used simlar language to describe how this present life is a shadow on a cave wall, but in heaven, the real, the true. '

like i keep saying, we are more similar than you know. i have NO problem with christianity apart from the belief that God is made of different 'parts'.

tell me, you say that jesus will sit next to God in heaven. why will jesus not 'return' back to God and 'rejoin'? and also where will the 'holy spirit' be? im talking about judgement day.
 
Being asa voice came from within the burning bush saying "I am the God of your fathers," I suspect that this 'sign' was authentically God. Not exhaustively God, anymore than the flaming pot (hello incense) moving through the pieces to sign the covenant with Avram was exhaustively God. God appears in signs because we cannot take in what and who He is. One sign was appearing as a man, Jesus.

Now the $64,000 question: is a little bit of God, or a manifestation suited to greet the eyes of men, any less holy, or any less God, than a bodiless power that encapsualtes all of creation? As I have said before, my Word is me, the "me" that you make contact with through my words.

The problem that you have with Christianity is one of your one misunderstanding and mischaracterization. We do not divide God or perceive Him as parts.

Acknowledging that I have a 'word' within me speaking to you does not mean I have parts. I have dimensions of expression. But each of those dimensions are genuine and not cardboard cutouts or modes.
 
TheStudent said:
.

The Almighty is just that, Almighty... never breathing. yet He is more ALIVE than all of us.
Click to expand...


That proves that the Quran, Surah 6:101 is false.
 
TheStudent said:
Yes everything is known by its opposites, except God. This is because of His ONENESS.


He does not have an opposite of Himself. what is the opposite of THE REAL?
Click to expand...

A "oneness" kind of God is a limited God. It wouldn't be greater than the realm of duality.

If God has no opposite, we can't rightly consider that he is "oneness", as one-ness does have an opposite, plurality.


:D


The classic Christian work of the via negativa has to be The Mystical Theology of St. Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite.


http://www.voidspace.org.uk/esoteric/my ... ology.html


I will quote chapter 5-


"Again, ascending yet higher, we maintain that it is neither soul nor intellect; nor has it imagination, opinion reason or understanding; nor can it be expressed or conceived, since it is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is it standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has it power nor is power, nor is light; neither does it live nor is it life; neither is it essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is it subject to intelligible contact; nor is it science nor truth, nor kingship nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is it spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation- free from every limitation and beyond them all."
 
6:101 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

divine names,
how does this prove the quran is false? please explain

please tell me, the opposite of man is woman, correct?
the opposite of dark is light, correct?
what then is the opposite of God?

you can never answer this question with truth.

NO ONE fully knows GOd.

but we do know that He is NOT equal to His creation but SUPERIOR to it. He is GOD to His creation. how else can you explain Him? God IS GOD. With all His complexities, His relationship with us is simple. He is GOD.

jesus was just another of His creations. albeit a very pious and humble creation, but a creation none the less. born of woman, ate and slept like the rest of us.

and again: The creation can not be called The Creator
 
TheStudent said:
but we do know that He is NOT equal to His creation but SUPERIOR to it.
Click to expand...


Which shows that God can't be considered to be "oneness".
 
TheStudent said:
jesus was just another of His creations. albeit a very pious and humble creation, but a creation none the less. born of woman, ate and slept like the rest of us.

and again: The creation can not be called The Creator
Click to expand...


But Christians start from a different assumption about Jesus, so they are not saying that a created thing is the Creator.

I am sure you are able to understand this.
 
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