The God of Calvinism

[DivineNames]

Where Calvinism Leads
Tim Warner

When the philosophy that drives Calvinism is projected to its logical conclusion, even Satan's activity is an extension of God's sovereignty. God sovereignly controls Satan's every move. This makes God the author of everything evil, and the most wicked sinner of all. Some Calvinists actually admit this, and seek to defend it from Scripture. If ultimately God sovereignly is in control of everything, and if free will of man, angels, or even Satan, is ultimately under the control of God, then the responsibility for all wickedness and evil must be placed at the feet of God Himself. Are Satan's actions of his own free will? If so, then God has obviously limited His sovereignty regarding Satan's activities. He allows Satan free will. If Satan's actions are ultimately under the control of God, then Satan is merely God's puppet, or "dark side."
The God of the Bible does not resemble this kind of god.

I John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

We must keep in mind that Satan's ultimate ambition is to usurp God's position, (Isaiah 14:13-15, 2 Thes. 2:3,4). Satan cannot make himself holy, but, he can make God appear to be unholy, closing the gap between man's perception of God and Satan. Satan simply assumes the dark side of God. This philosophical merging of God and Satan in effect fulfills Satan's ultimate aspiration.

The danger for Christians, however, is that only one baby step separates the Calvinism, taught in mainstream Evangelical churches, from the logical philosophical conclusion, that God is both good and evil. Ultimately, God is Satan and Satan is God. In the last days this philosophy will facilitate Christians worshipping the Beast.

I am very troubled by the logical implications that the Calvinist philosophy forces Christians to embrace. And also the image of the Christian "God" presented to the world.

Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:

1. God's offers of salvation to "whosoever will" are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.
2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.
3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.
4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.
5. God controls Satan's every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.

The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word "Satan" instead of "God" in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine. For the fortunate few on whom Calvinism's God has arbitrarily decided to bestow every good thing, God is a pretty cool dude! They have their ticket, and no matter what they do, they are destined for eternal bliss. To hell with the rest of mankind. Calvinism seems pretty attractive to those with an elitist mentality. But, what kind of God are Calvinists presenting to the rest of mankind? I strongly believe that Atheism thrives largely because of the Reformed - Calvinist model. That is, Calvinism's portrayal of God is one of the major reasons that many thinking people reject God. They are rejecting the Calvinist's God. While I do not agree with all of Dave Hunts' points in his book, "What Love is This?", I think his title is far too tame!

I have received a fair amount of "hate mail" from Calvinists because my expressing the concerns in this article. Usually they accuse me of equating Calvinism with the Occult. But, that is not what I have written. Unfortunately, in most cases, they have misunderstood my point. I am NOT saying that Calvinists actually teach God is wicked, or a sinner, or even directly responsible for sin. Most Calvinists stop short of drawing those conclusions. I am saying that this is the logical outcome when you project Calvinism's philosophy to its logical conclusions. And let's be frank. If the logical outcome of a particular philosophy is impossible, then the system is illogical.

The real mistake of Calvinists is elevating God's sovereignty at the expense of His holiness. They have failed to see that sovereignty does NOT demand God's micromanaging all His creatures. That God has the power to control everything is without question. But, His purpose in creation would not be realized if He did so. Free will and allowing natural consequences to follow human choices is a major component of what God is accomplishing with His creation.

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin09.html

 

[AVBunyan]

Will be so kind as to explain to me why the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers, and missionareis of the 1600's to the 1890's were "Calvinists?

No Armenian today is producing 1/2 the results those men did.

Would you be so kind as to explain why God used Georege Whitefield and CH Spurgeon and others to get such tremendous results and have such a profound affect by adhering to such a doctrine?

Would you be so kind as to explain why these men, such as Jonathan Edwards and David Braianrd and others had a practical holiness that make the modern Armenian today look unsaved?

Would you mind showiing me where Armenians of the same period were bascially a wash compared to the fruits of these men.

Do you know what I think - just an opinion - I do not believe you've read much of Thomas Watson, John Owen, John Newton, Thomas Boston, John Bunyan, Christopher Love, Richard Allein, Richard Baxter, etc. If you haven't then I invite you to sit at their feet a while and glean...http://av1611bible.com/links/puritansites.htm

By the way your writer's statement, "The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word "Satan" instead of "God" in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine." tells me you and the writer really do not understand the doctrines of grace and may not even understand much about God.

God bless

 

[JM]

Are you a cut and paste theologian or did you want to say something with this post DN? Besides, you're not a member of the Church, who are you to judge theology!

 

[Sothenes]

Where Calvinism Leads
Tim Warner

I agree with you. I and other Christians don't agree with all the points of Calvanism. It is one of my projects to debate the topic of Calvinism and win.

 

[Sothenes]

Will be so kind as to explain to me why the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers, and missionareis of the 1600's to the 1890's were "Calvinists?

No Armenian today is producing 1/2 the results those men did.

Would you be so kind as to explain why God used Georege Whitefield and CH Spurgeon and others to get such tremendous results and have such a profound affect by adhering to such a doctrine?

It was their aim to make people work until you felt "elected".

I read some of Calvin's original works and while he is very smart, I think he totally missed the point of scripture by reading his own meanings into the text and I also feel that he was illiterate of other Bible verses.

My pastor points to CH Spurgeon as a Calvinist who believed that you could choose.

 

[Heidi]

Where Calvinism Leads
Tim Warner

When the philosophy that drives Calvinism is projected to its logical conclusion, even Satan's activity is an extension of God's sovereignty. God sovereignly controls Satan's every move. This makes God the author of everything evil, and the most wicked sinner of all. Some Calvinists actually admit this, and seek to defend it from Scripture. If ultimately God sovereignly is in control of everything, and if free will of man, angels, or even Satan, is ultimately under the control of God, then the responsibility for all wickedness and evil must be placed at the feet of God Himself. Are Satan's actions of his own free will? If so, then God has obviously limited His sovereignty regarding Satan's activities. He allows Satan free will. If Satan's actions are ultimately under the control of God, then Satan is merely God's puppet, or "dark side."
The God of the Bible does not resemble this kind of god.

I John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

We must keep in mind that Satan's ultimate ambition is to usurp God's position, (Isaiah 14:13-15, 2 Thes. 2:3,4). Satan cannot make himself holy, but, he can make God appear to be unholy, closing the gap between man's perception of God and Satan. Satan simply assumes the dark side of God. This philosophical merging of God and Satan in effect fulfills Satan's ultimate aspiration.

The danger for Christians, however, is that only one baby step separates the Calvinism, taught in mainstream Evangelical churches, from the logical philosophical conclusion, that God is both good and evil. Ultimately, God is Satan and Satan is God. In the last days this philosophy will facilitate Christians worshipping the Beast.

I am very troubled by the logical implications that the Calvinist philosophy forces Christians to embrace. And also the image of the Christian "God" presented to the world.

Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:

1. God's offers of salvation to "whosoever will" are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.
2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.
3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.
4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.
5. God controls Satan's every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.

The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word "Satan" instead of "God" in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine. For the fortunate few on whom Calvinism's God has arbitrarily decided to bestow every good thing, God is a pretty cool dude! They have their ticket, and no matter what they do, they are destined for eternal bliss. To hell with the rest of mankind. Calvinism seems pretty attractive to those with an elitist mentality. But, what kind of God are Calvinists presenting to the rest of mankind? I strongly believe that Atheism thrives largely because of the Reformed - Calvinist model. That is, Calvinism's portrayal of God is one of the major reasons that many thinking people reject God. They are rejecting the Calvinist's God. While I do not agree with all of Dave Hunts' points in his book, "What Love is This?", I think his title is far too tame!

I have received a fair amount of "hate mail" from Calvinists because my expressing the concerns in this article. Usually they accuse me of equating Calvinism with the Occult. But, that is not what I have written. Unfortunately, in most cases, they have misunderstood my point. I am NOT saying that Calvinists actually teach God is wicked, or a sinner, or even directly responsible for sin. Most Calvinists stop short of drawing those conclusions. I am saying that this is the logical outcome when you project Calvinism's philosophy to its logical conclusions. And let's be frank. If the logical outcome of a particular philosophy is impossible, then the system is illogical.

The real mistake of Calvinists is elevating God's sovereignty at the expense of His holiness. They have failed to see that sovereignty does NOT demand God's micromanaging all His creatures. That God has the power to control everything is without question. But, His purpose in creation would not be realized if He did so. Free will and allowing natural consequences to follow human choices is a major component of what God is accomplishing with His creation.

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin09.html

Are you saying that the devil is stronger than God? :o Sorry, friend, but God controls the universe. He kicked Satan out of heaven and has authority over him.

God allows satan to do what he wants which is exactly what He told Job, so that man will feel the pain of Satan and come to God. And that is why God allows sin. Without sin, there can be no mercy or forgiveness. "God bound all men over to disobedience so He can have mercy on them all."

Without Satan men wouldn't know what evil was so they couldn't know what good was. Without Satan, we would feel entitled to God's glory instead of thankfulness.

Jesus said; "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you the truth, not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."

So yes indeed, God controls the universe, not Satan. God steps in any time he wants to show us mercy. The times he doesn't, are the times he wants us to learn something.

 

[DivineNames]

By the way your writer's statement, "The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word "Satan" instead of "God" in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine." tells me you and the writer really do not understand the doctrines of grace and may not even understand much about God.

I think I know enough about Calvinism, to know that they worship something very evil. I don't see anyone around here successfully defending the God of Calvinism against that charge.

 

[DivineNames]

Would you be so kind as to explain why these men, such as Jonathan Edwards and David Braianrd and others had a practical holiness that make the modern Armenian today look unsaved?

Would you mind showiing me where Armenians of the same period were bascially a wash compared to the fruits of these men.

Have there been any scientific studies of the "holiness" of Calvinist's in comparison to those who believe in Arminianism? When you make a claim like that, I think we really need to see some evidence in support.

Even if Calvinism were genuinely producing, "better Christians", it doesn't necessarily follow that Calvinism is true, or that the God of Calvinism isn't as evil as it gets.

If I could find some Hindu's with a high degree of holiness, would you believe in Brahman? I am guessing you wouldn't.

 

[DivineNames]

Do you know what I think - just an opinion - I do not believe you've read much of Thomas Watson, John Owen, John Newton, Thomas Boston, John Bunyan, Christopher Love, Richard Allein, Richard Baxter, etc. If you haven't then I invite you to sit at their feet a while and glean...http://av1611bible.com/links/puritansites.htm

You would be right about that. If these people have written in defence of the God of Calvinism, (i.e. defending the morality of that kind of Deity), then I would be happy to take a look at their arguments. Can you point me in the direction of such argument from these writers?

 

[DivineNames]

Are you a cut and paste theologian or did you want to say something with this post DN? Besides, you're not a member of the Church, who are you to judge theology!

What did I want to say with that post? Well I wouldn't agree with everything it said, but I certainly do agree that you have an evil God. And JM, who are you to say that I shouldn't be judging the ethics of a theological position? If it offends you, sorry... There are plenty of Christians around here that will have an opinion on Islam, obviously without being a member of that religion.

 

[Heidi]

By the way your writer's statement, "The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word "Satan" instead of "God" in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine." tells me you and the writer really do not understand the doctrines of grace and may not even understand much about God.

I think I know enough about Calvinism, to know that they worship something very evil. I don't see anyone around here successfully defending the God of Calvinism against that charge.

So are you saying that it's man's superior nature, intelligence and wisdom that rules the universe? :o Sorry, but Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone."

Paul also says; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or effort but on God's mercy." One can no more decide to believe than he can decide to become perfect. That wreaks of human arrogance and pride which is from the devil.

Also, in Romans 9:11, Paul says; "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in elcetion might stand: not by works but by Him who calls-she was told. 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

So Calvin is right on with the bible. The whole key in the free will issue is that since none of us knows who is called, then salvation is open to all and we are all accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs. God is showing us that He makes the decisions of the universe, not us. But that doesn't set too well with people who don't want to submit to his will. They will resist it as much as the devil does.

 

[DivineNames]

So Calvin is right on with the bible. The whole key in the free will issue is that since none of us knows who is called, then salvation is open to all

What?

That is absurd. :silly:

 

[Heidi]

So Calvin is right on with the bible. The whole key in the free will issue is that since none of us knows who is called, then salvation is open to all

What?

That is absurd. :silly:

So you don't believe God when he says he will harden whom he wants to harden and have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. Is that correct?

Nor do you believe Paul when he says; "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Who do you think gives us the Holy Spirit? The toothfairy? :o Or perhapes there is no God and we give it to ourselves. Sorry, Charlie, but as Jesus said; "You did not choose me, I chose you." "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." Again, God makes the decisions of the universe, not you.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

“The God of Calvinism?â€Â
Now that is a very interesting topic title. I always thought Calvinist and Arminians worshiped the same God… the God of the Bible. Now I am aware of the difference between the two but both believe the essential doctrine required for salvation. There is no doubt in my mind that such Arminians as John and Charles Wesley are in Heaven.

As for the “article†uh well it is not very convincing to me…if anything I see more of a lack of understanding about Calvinism.

Oh one last thing…I find it interesting that the “father of modern missions,ââ¬Â William Carey was a Calvinist.

 

[JM]

Anyone ever hear of Korea? "Korea, South Christian, 48.2%; Buddhist, 48.8%; Confucianist, 0.8%; Chondogyo (religion of the Heavenly Way), 0.2%; other, 2%" The mission work was done by Calvinists over the last 100 years.

8-)

 

[Soma-Sight]

Will be so kind as to explain to me why the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers, and missionareis of the 1600's to the 1890's were "Calvinists?

According to whose standards?????

God's.... or the Worlds!

 

[Sothenes]

Are you saying that the devil is stronger than God? :o Sorry, friend, but God controls the universe. He kicked Satan out of heaven and has authority over him.

God allows satan to do what he wants which is exactly what He told Job, so that man will feel the pain of Satan and come to God. And that is why God allows sin. Without sin, there can be no mercy or forgiveness. "God bound all men over to disobedience so He can have mercy on them all."

Without Satan men wouldn't know what evil was so they couldn't know what good was. Without Satan, we would feel entitled to God's glory instead of thankfulness.

Jesus said; "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you the truth, not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."

So yes indeed, God controls the universe, not Satan. God steps in any time he wants to show us mercy. The times he doesn't, are the times he wants us to learn something.

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:

Satan may be bound but his leash is too long.

 

[Sothenes]

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine."-Luke 4:5-7

Satan was offering Jesus the office of the anti-Christ. Satan is the god (little g) of this world. Jesus didn't argue with the devil and tell Satan that Satan didn't have this authority.

 

[Heidi]

Are you saying that the devil is stronger than God? :o Sorry, friend, but God controls the universe. He kicked Satan out of heaven and has authority over him.

God allows satan to do what he wants which is exactly what He told Job, so that man will feel the pain of Satan and come to God. And that is why God allows sin. Without sin, there can be no mercy or forgiveness. "God bound all men over to disobedience so He can have mercy on them all."

Without Satan men wouldn't know what evil was so they couldn't know what good was. Without Satan, we would feel entitled to God's glory instead of thankfulness.

Jesus said; "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you the truth, not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."

So yes indeed, God controls the universe, not Satan. God steps in any time he wants to show us mercy. The times he doesn't, are the times he wants us to learn something.

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:

Satan may be bound but his leash is too long.

So again, who do you believe controls the universe, God or Satan? :o

 

[Sothenes]

So again, who do you believe controls the universe, God or Satan? :o

The question is not so much who controls the universe. The question is why did God have to redeem or ransom us if God has control of man? Who do you pay a ransom to? Who has ownership of us if we are slaves to sin? Why did Jesus say His kingdom is not of this world. Why did the demons say,'have you come to persecute us before the time"? What was handed over to Adam and Eve in the garden? What was the headship?

1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.