The Gospel: Good News or Bad News?

[elijah23]

I took this from Wikipedia:

The word gospel derives from the Old English gōd-spell [1] (rarely godspel), meaning "good news" or "glad tidings".

Why is it so many people turn the good news of the Gospel into bad news? All that is required of us is that we repent:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

 

[WIP]

I believe there's more to it than just repentance. I think repentance goes alone with believing, trusting completely, and accepting Jesus as our Lord and savior. I also believe these are things we do out of love for Christ and not out of duty or self-righteousness.

The good news of the gospels is that we no longer have to earn our way because He has done it for us. Thank God for that because we would surely fail. In response to that wonderful news we repent, believe, trust, and love Him with all our heart, mind, and soul. Every time I partake in Holy Communion I remember.

Thank you, Jesus!

 

[elijah23]

I believe there's more to it than just repentance. I think repentance goes alone with believing, trusting completely, and accepting Jesus as our Lord and savior. I also believe these are things we do out of love for Christ and not out of duty or self-righteousness.

The good news of the gospels is that we no longer have to earn our way because He has done it for us. Thank God for that because we would surely fail. In response to that wonderful news we repent, believe, trust, and love Him with all our heart, mind, and soul. Every time I partake in Holy Communion I remember.

Thank you, Jesus!

Jesus forgives our past sins but he does expect us to learn from our errors.

Repentance covers a great deal. It covers our failure to do all the things we should do, or not do all the things we shouldn’t do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I took this from Wikipedia:



Why is it so many people turn the good news of the Gospel into bad news? All that is required of us is that we repent:

How do people turn the good news of Christ into the bad news of Christ?

 

[elijah23]

How do people turn the good news of Christ into the bad news of Christ?

They make it sound like we are all doomed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They make it sound like we are all doomed.

All? I have not heard that gospel.

But it is true that the splendor of the Lord's coming means salvation for us at the same time that it means destruction for the unbelieving. It's like how we are the aroma of Christ to both believers and unbelievers. To believers we are the fragrance of life, but to the unbelieving that same aroma is the smell of death. Same aroma, but a different smell depending on whether you believe or not. So I can see how the good news can be bad news at the same time. It's only good news for those who embrace it.

 

[Former Christian]

Elijah23

“Why is it so many people turn the good news of the Gospel into bad news? All that is required of us is that we repent:”


Repentance is impossible until after one is already in Christ. And then only to those who walk by the Spirit.

The Greek word metanoeo is translated in all English translations as repentance. Repentance means “feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin” (Oxford Dictionary). Christianity has changed the meaning of repentance to mean “turn to God and way from one’s sins, to amend with abhorrence one’s past sins”. Either way, repentance is a mistranslation of metanoeo. The Greek word metanoeo simply means to “change one’s mind”. That’s all it means. But by changing the meaning of that Greek word, Christianity has changed the good news into bad news. Because the Gospel preached by Christianity, by preaching repentance, asks of the unbelievers something not within their power to do. When they discover that fact, they turn away completely. Only the ones who look to God and to Jesus may overcome the misspeaking of Christianity.

The good news is that we are saved by Jesus Christ alone. We are saved by being in Christ and only by being in Christ. We are saved by the faith and works of Christ alone. Not by our faith, whether alone or with works. Not by our repentance. Those who are in Christ are part of a new creation. What Jethro Bodine speaks of very eloquently is true. For those who will believe into Christ, the good news is truly good news. For those who will not, the good news is truly bad news.

The preaching should be regarding the situation of man, and the remedy for this situation in Christ. Metanoeo speaks to agreeing with that preaching. Agreeing that God exists, and agreeing that mankind has a problem for which God has provided a solution. The primary work of that faith is to be baptized by water into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19). Simultaneously to our water baptism, the Spirit will baptize us into Christ according to our faith (Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 12:13). And the preaching should be a plea to agree with God in this matter (metanoeo), for that will lead to faith in what God has provided.

When Jesus says, “repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand”, he isn’t saying anything other than, “Agree with me, the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. Jesus was asking the Jews to take the starting point toward faith in what’s reality. The reality they were believing in was the Traditions of men. Many decided to not agree with Jesus. And they consequently missed the whole point of why Jesus Christ came to them. And eventually, the way in Christ was taken to the Gentiles. The rejection of the majority of the Jews was taken into consideration and God hardened their hearts so that they would carry out his plan that Jesus die. Because Jesus came to save mankind, not just the Jews. After the fact of the death, resurrection, ascension of Jesus Christ, and the blood applied for all on the mercy seat in heaven, Then the eyes of the Jews were opened, as seen in Acts 1 and 2, and thousands became part of the ekklesia in Jerusalem.

FC

 

[elijah23]

All? I have not heard that gospel.

But it is true that the splendor of the Lord's coming means salvation for us at the same time that it means destruction for the unbelieving. It's like how we are the aroma of Christ to both believers and unbelievers. To believers we are the fragrance of life, but to the unbelieving that same aroma is the smell of death. Same aroma, but a different smell depending on whether you believe or not. So I can see how the good news can be bad news at the same time. It's only good news for those who embrace it.

I exaggerated. Not all, but most.

 

[elijah23]

All? I have not heard that gospel.

But it is true that the splendor of the Lord's coming means salvation for us at the same time that it means destruction for the unbelieving. It's like how we are the aroma of Christ to both believers and unbelievers. To believers we are the fragrance of life, but to the unbelieving that same aroma is the smell of death. Same aroma, but a different smell depending on whether you believe or not. So I can see how the good news can be bad news at the same time. It's only good news for those who embrace it.

The Lord is loving and caring. He has a way of putting pressure on us to accept the truth. It takes longer with some with others, perhaps, and the pressure can be extremely powerful, but I think sooner or later we all come around. After all, which would you prefer: eternity in bliss or eternity in fire?

 

[elijah23]

Elijah23

“Why is it so many people turn the good news of the Gospel into bad news? All that is required of us is that we repent:â€


Repentance is impossible until after one is already in Christ. And then only to those who walk by the Spirit.

The Greek word metanoeo is translated in all English translations as repentance. Repentance means “feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin†(Oxford Dictionary). Christianity has changed the meaning of repentance to mean “turn to God and way from one’s sins, to amend with abhorrence one’s past sinsâ€. Either way, repentance is a mistranslation of metanoeo. The Greek word metanoeo simply means to “change one’s mindâ€. That’s all it means. But by changing the meaning of that Greek word, Christianity has changed the good news into bad news. Because the Gospel preached by Christianity, by preaching repentance, asks of the unbelievers something not within their power to do. When they discover that fact, they turn away completely. Only the ones who look to God and to Jesus may overcome the misspeaking of Christianity.

The good news is that we are saved by Jesus Christ alone. We are saved by being in Christ and only by being in Christ. We are saved by the faith and works of Christ alone. Not by our faith, whether alone or with works. Not by our repentance. Those who are in Christ are part of a new creation. What Jethro Bodine speaks of very eloquently is true. For those who will believe into Christ, the good news is truly good news. For those who will not, the good news is truly bad news.

The preaching should be regarding the situation of man, and the remedy for this situation in Christ. Metanoeo speaks to agreeing with that preaching. Agreeing that God exists, and agreeing that mankind has a problem for which God has provided a solution. The primary work of that faith is to be baptized by water into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19). Simultaneously to our water baptism, the Spirit will baptize us into Christ according to our faith (Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 12:13). And the preaching should be a plea to agree with God in this matter (metanoeo), for that will lead to faith in what God has provided.

When Jesus says, “repent, the kingdom of heaven is at handâ€, he isn’t saying anything other than, “Agree with me, the kingdom of heaven is at handâ€. Jesus was asking the Jews to take the starting point toward faith in what’s reality. The reality they were believing in was the Traditions of men. Many decided to not agree with Jesus. And they consequently missed the whole point of why Jesus Christ came to them. And eventually, the way in Christ was taken to the Gentiles. The rejection of the majority of the Jews was taken into consideration and God hardened their hearts so that they would carry out his plan that Jesus die. Because Jesus came to save mankind, not just the Jews. After the fact of the death, resurrection, ascension of Jesus Christ, and the blood applied for all on the mercy seat in heaven, Then the eyes of the Jews were opened, as seen in Acts 1 and 2, and thousands became part of the ekklesia in Jerusalem.

FC

When the Lord decides it’s time for us to repent, it’s time for us to repent.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Greek word metanoeo is translated in all English translations as repentance. Repentance means “feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin” (Oxford Dictionary). Christianity has changed the meaning of repentance to mean “turn to God and way from one’s sins, to amend with abhorrence one’s past sins”. Either way, repentance is a mistranslation of metanoeo. The Greek word metanoeo simply means to “change one’s mind”. That’s all it means. But by changing the meaning of that Greek word, Christianity has changed the good news into bad news. Because the Gospel preached by Christianity, by preaching repentance, asks of the unbelievers something not within their power to do. When they discover that fact, they turn away completely. Only the ones who look to God and to Jesus may overcome the misspeaking of Christianity.
FC

Here's where we see that 'repentance' is not actually the turning away from sin, but rather the acknowledging of God (OT speak) which is then confirmed by the turning away from sin:

"...I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." (Acts 26:20 NIV1984)

Our deeds prove whether or not we have 'repented', acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ and the way that God has provided to forgive sin and draw people unto himself in perfect righteousness (as opposed to the way of law to obtain the righteousness that saves). We can tell who believes that Jesus is the Christ when they prove that change of mind (repentance) by what they do.

 

[WIP]

Our deeds prove whether or not we have 'repented',

To whom? Who do we need to prove it to?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To whom? Who do we need to prove it to?

Although Paul doesn't say specifically, I think we are to prove our repentance 'to ourselves', 'to others', and 'to God'. These would all be good answers, but I think 'to ourselves' is probably the best Biblical answer for us individually. The Bible teaches us in more than one place to examine our own lives so that we can know beyond our confession that we have believed as to inherit eternal life. The Bible tells us how we can know we will be saved on the Day of Wrath by what we see in our lives.

 

[Former Christian]

Jethro Bodine

"...I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." (Acts 26:20 NIV1984)

The NIV is generally a good translation. But here it gives the wrong impression. The Greek word axia doesn’t mean to prove. It means to be worthy of or deserving of. Paul is saying to do works worthy or befitting of agreement with and the turning to God. The following translations are in this case more accurate:

“and do works meet for repentance.†(KJV)

“performing deeds appropriate to repentance.†(NASB)

“and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.†(RSV)

“performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.†(ESV)

The idea is not to prove agreeing with and turning to God, but to do that which in keeping with having done so. You may think this is quibble about a word. But I don’t think so. Take into consideration that if our works prove our faith, the ekklesia in Corinth was made up mainly of unbelievers who proved by their works that they hadn’t yet agreed with and turned to God. Not to mention what this idea proves as far as Christianity is concerned. Though I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion, I would never presume that on that account all therein, by virtue of at least one work, that of adhering to Christianity, all are proven to not have agreed with and turned to God.

And there is precedent that some Christians have actually thought that of their fellow Christians. Just because they didn’t believe in the same doctrines that they did. Calvinistic Evangelical Protestants are a case in point. They are ask, “Are Catholics Christian?†And they answer their own question with a resounding “No!â€. They don’t realize that there is no denomination that expresses of Christianity more clearly.


“The Bible teaches us in more than one place to examine our own lives so that we can know beyond our confession that we have believed as to inherit eternal life. The Bible tells us how we can know we will be saved on the Day of Wrath by what we see in our lives.â€

This is a common idea among Evangelical Protestants. And many biblical verses are used to back up such an idea. Misused verses in my opinion.

The first thing to note is that James says in chapter 2 that faith and works are inseparable. And does indeed show by expression whether or not faith exists. Seemingly bolstering the Catholic opinion concerning faith and works. Martin Luther had a poor opinion concerning James on that account, because it showed the error of his own faith alone idea.

1 Cor 6:
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(NIV)

This is commonly used to show how sinful works show that the individual isn’t going to make it. Yet all they have to do is to read the following verse to see that Paul isn’t saying that at all. Rather he is showing something else entirely.

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(NIV)

By outward appearance, the Corinthians were unbelievers. They were still drunkards and such. But Paul knew differently. He knew they were in Christ. Notice in verse 11 he says “wereâ€, not “didâ€. He knew they needed to bring their works up to the standard of their reality. The whole point of the two Corinthian letters was just that. Paul encouraged them to give one of their own over to Satan. Not because he belonged to Satan, but that his spirit might be saved. Paul even spoke of some building on wood, hay and stubble. Not as people who were proven to be lost. But that they will be saved in spite of such building.


2Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you— unless, of course, you fail the test?
(NIV)

Paul wrote this in the second letter, not the first letter that revealed all the negativity in the Corinthian ekklesia. Christians well know the principle of taking into consideration the context of a verse to understand it properly. Yet when it comes to Traditonal ideas, Catholic or Protestant, the principle just seems to evaporate.

2Cor 13:4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God’s power we will live with him to serve you.
(NIV)

Paul uses himself as an example. Living by the power of God. It was how Jesus lived. It’s how we are to live. The Corinthians were questioning Paul’s authority (vs. 3). It’s in that context one must understand verse 5. And that context continues,

2Co 13:6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.
(NIV)

Paul was trying to point out their own arrogance that questioned his authority as an apostle of God and of Jesus Christ. All they had to do was to open their eyes to see the authority that resided in Paul.


Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed— not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence— continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
(NIV)

This is another verse used commonly in this regard. And again the context isn’t being considered.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
(NIV)

If our works prove our faith, it’s only because of God who is working in us. All praise goes to God. Not in our works lest we should boast.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(NIV)

FC

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, these are the scriptures I had in mind:

"8...land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience (the fruit of the Spirit, not works) inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:8-12 NIV1984 emphasis and parenthesis mine)


"5...make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities (fruit, not works) in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV1984 emphasis mine)


These are not saying we establish our salvation by walking in the fruit of the Spirit. It's saying we can make known the surety of that which we believe by being careful to nurture and walk in the fruit of the Spirit. The scriptures are plainly telling us to purposely seek to confirm the reality of our salvation (if it is real) by nurturing the fruit of the Spirit within. (Obviously, the value of doing that would to help us see whether we really have the spiritual capacity through a born again experience to do that or not...and if not, to then acknowledge that and...well...get saved.)

Similarly, John says it is those who have the fruit of the Spirit love actually manifested in their lives who have the surety that they belong to Christ and for that reason have no fear of Judgment Day:

"...love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him." (1 John NIV1984)


The fruit of the Spirit is how the Church is to "5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith", and see if "Christ Jesus is in you" (2 Cor. 13:5 NIV 1984)...

..."unless, of course, you fail the test?" (2 Cor. 13:5 NIV1984)


The Christian life is all about the fruit of the Spirit. It seems few know this.

 

[Former Christian]

Jethro Bodine

“The Christian life is all about the fruit of the Spirit. It seems few know this.â€


I have to agree, even that few seem to know or understand about the Spirit, let alone the fruit of the Spirit. It’s not something commonly taught in Christianity. And when it is taught, it’s generally according to a philosophy arrived at through biblical interpretation instead of what the bible actually says about it. Christians, in Christ or not, are being taught how to practice biblical interpretation and how to be conformed to the image of a denomination, rather than to the image of Christ.

In order to continue to be a believer, in order to continue to believe there is actually such a thing as being in Christ and walking by the Spirit, as I believe I am experiencing, an experience upon which I base what I believe to be true; I have to also believe there are many more in Christianity who are in Christ than appears on the surface. This means there has to be a lot of those who are in Christ who began by the Spirit, but are being perfected by the flesh.

How many believe in the existence of the human spirit, having been taught that it’s the higher part of the mind or just a synonym for the mind? Even though they had to have experienced the human spirit initially having been put into Christ? And how many have a right understanding of their human spirit even when they do believe in its existence as something separate from the mind, how it's connected to the human mind, how it’s connected to the Spirit of God, what it’s true function is? When all they’ve been taught is the philosophy of a Holiness or Pentecostal denomination? Or a denomination that understands something of its true function, while practicing something entirely natural?

I’ve seen too many who obviously had a supernatural experience that put them into Christ, only to eventually become a staunch defender of a denominational distinction in the form of doctrines that may teach the existence of the supernatural, but they themselves no longer have any actual or obvious experience of the supernatural. They’ve become philosophers, very natural philosophers, espousing a philosophy of life, rather than continuing to experience the life in Christ. They conform outwardly to a philosophy of morals, just as any natural man can. They even become pillars of the community and of their Church of choice or birth, while living a life any natural man can live. There’s no outward sign that they’re walking by the Spirit at all. They walk just as any man in Adam, according to their own mind and soul. Some even by the flesh. But either way, in a way that has conformed to what’s considered denominationally acceptable.

I believe there are Christians who are in Christ, but are also living a gay lifestyle. Simply because they are in a denomination wherein this lifestyle is considered, not only NOT a sin, but acceptable, even as appropriate as a heterosexual lifestyle. They no doubt once felt a twinge in their conscience, or in their human spirit, when they initially were put into Christ that something was wrong. But they’ve become convinced by a practice of biblical interpretation that replaces the clear teaching of the bible, so clear even Atheists see it. They’ve become convinced that it was their conscience or what they received through their human spirit that was wrong.

The bible says nothing about smoking. One has to either interpret principles into the bible to be against it or compromise and say it’s alright if done in moderation. In keeping with what the bible says about the only drug it talks about, alcohol. Doesn’t matter that modern science has proven smoking is bad for one’s health. And modern science now claims that a daily glass of wine is actually good for you, even though it is quite obvious that what they say makes it good for you is in a glass of common grape juice, without the obvious side effects of any alcoholic content. Whether a glass of wine may be better for you than a glass of water purified by chlorine and other assorted chemicals remains to be seen.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

I don't know what's going on with post #16, but something is surely wrong. I think it has to do with the ads sitting there right above and right below what I said.

FC

And now I've noticed it says below everything: Code corrupted. Insert fresh copy. Going to need a computer geek to straighten this out.

 

[reba]

FC i do not see what you see... sorry

 

[Former Christian]

Reba

Quite alright. I've yet to meet any Christian that sees what I see. Oh, there are things here and there that a few Christians here and there see the same as I do. But no Christian sees all of what I see. According to my experience thus far, I would say that they probably never will. And when it comes down to the nitty gritty, I really don't see much at all compared with what there is to see. And what I share with Christians, in real life or on the forums, isn’t all that I see, being very basic things. Not that I don't dare share other things. Just don't see much sense to it if basics can’t be seen.

But then, I'm sure you've noticed I'm not like Christians in a conventional sense. So I guess it stands to reason that Christians aren't going to see what I see. Christians tend to see according to whatever Tradition they’ve been exposed to, and only as much as that Tradition will allow them to see. Having rejected Christian Tradition, in a historical sense and also in a denominational sense, I’m not quite as inhibited to see as Traditional Christians are. I take heart from the fact that neither Jesus nor his immediate followers fit into their own era very well. Not like Christians tend to fit into their own era today.

I'm sure some one would like to bring up how arrogant that all sounds. But really arrogance has nothing to do with it. If it did, it would be just as easy for non-Christians to claim how arrogant Christians are for seeing what they can see. Due to the nature of Christian Tradition, I just don’t see how arrogance has anything to do with it, except perhaps in rare cases. Paul certainly saw things that others couldn’t see. But with Paul, God had a definite purpose in view. That purpose is already in place, so we don’t need another Paul today. And interestingly enough, I know of one who claimed to be an Apostle on the order of Paul, believing his ministry to be not only one of revelation, but also of correction. No doubt there are other such claimants out there.

I believe that revelation from God ended with the Revelation recorded by John. What I believe is needed today is for Christians to stop relying on the practice of Biblical interpretation to understand what that revelation says. I don’t claim that if such a practice is stopped everyone will automatically see what I see. But what they will see will be more complementary to what I see, rather than in contrast as it is now. I don’t’ believe that we’re intended to be individual seers of the grand panorama. Rather, we’re intended to see as a community more than any one individual can see. And no matter what the adherents of any denomination or what the neo-non-denominationalists might think, that simply isn’t happening today. Even the Gospel itself is understood too often as contrasting points of view. I still believe that those who are in Christ today, are in Christ in spite of Christianity, not because of it. God will come to the aid of those who truly seek him.

I don't believe that God chooses who will see or not see certain things. Anymore than I believe that God chooses the human ministries in Christianity. Though the majority would disagree, I’m sure. Personal ministries in Christianity depend on the abilities of the individuals involved. It’s as normal a gravitation process as it is with all who are in Adam. While seeing what isn't apparent to others depends on individual attitude and open mindedness to see.

In the New Testament, the seeing of visions is recorded as if they’re a normal occurrence. Something that I personally, due to the influence of modern Christian Tradition on me, would be very afraid to see. I would no doubt think I'm losing my mind. Something that seems to not have even entered the minds of those in the New Testament era who saw visions. Yet I do take for granted that what I see is intended to be what every one who is in Christ is supposed to see. Even though what I see isn’t due to visions or hearing actual voices. I have no doubt that the only reason I’ve never experienced a vision is because of my own attitude and lack of open mindedness in regard to such a thing. Nevertheless, what I am able to see is as real to me as seeing a physical Christian Church and all the accouterments associated with it.

It puzzled me at first, when I first began to see things that Christians could not. And I’m talking about things that are more than just the usual doctrinal controversies in Christianity. That was a very hard time for me. I almost agreed with the militant Atheists that Christianity will make one insane. You don’t know how close I came to pulling away from it all. But eventually, I didn’t pull away. Rather, I adapted my thinking and actions to what I was seeing.

But who knows. Maybe I’m quite insane. They say the insane never know they’re insane. On the other hand, who defines what or who is insane? Surely it’s everyone else who’s insane except me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee. He said, as insane laughter rolled from his mouth.

FC

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Reba

Quite alright. I've yet to meet any Christian that sees what I see.

I thought she was talking about the formatting issue.

Oh, there are things here and there that a few Christians here and there see the same as I do. But no Christian sees all of what I see.

Although I sympathize with your divorce from those who call themselves 'Christians', because of how terribly they have misrepresented that title these last few centuries, unless what you see that others don't is along this line, I may not be seeing it either:

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" (Gal. 5:6 NIV1984)

According to my experience thus far, I would say that they probably never will.

In regard to what I think 'Christians' do not see, I think they probably never will see it because we are in the prophesied last days of the church. A church utterly corrupted and disconnected from the head, Jesus Christ.

And when it comes down to the nitty gritty, I really don't see much at all compared with what there is to see. And what I share with Christians, in real life or on the forums, isn’t all that I see, being very basic things. Not that I don't dare share other things. Just don't see much sense to it if basics can’t be seen.

Maybe you do, maybe you don't see a lot. But I'm not sure you've ever even shared the basics in any specific manner.

Christians tend to see according to whatever Tradition they’ve been exposed to, and only as much as that Tradition will allow them to see.

Generally speaking, I have found this to be entirely true. It is extremely frustrating to bring down the bricks of a hardened indoctrination held together with the mortar of tradition built up in a person. My frustration used to inspire me to many words. Now my frustration drives me to bitter silence.

I'm sure some one would like to bring up how arrogant that all sounds. But really arrogance has nothing to do with it. If it did, it would be just as easy for non-Christians to claim how arrogant Christians are for seeing what they can see. Due to the nature of Christian Tradition, I just don’t see how arrogance has anything to do with it, except perhaps in rare cases.

It's amazing how sharing things other people don't know, no matter how gentle you do it, arouses the pride of the person hearing it. It is pride in a person that causes them to accuse the other of being arrogant. But they can't see that. Does sharing an opinion always have to be because a person is arrogant? Why do so many people think this? Pride is a major hindrance in the church today.

What I believe is needed today is for Christians to stop relying on the practice of Biblical interpretation to understand what that revelation says. I don’t claim that if such a practice is stopped everyone will automatically see what I see. But what they will see will be more complementary to what I see, rather than in contrast as it is now.

Until we know specifically what you're seeing that others aren't this won't get very far with people. The problem of pride in the church will not let people honestly inquire and search for the depth of what you're alluding to.

I don’t’ believe that we’re intended to be individual seers of the grand panorama. Rather, we’re intended to see as a community more than any one individual can see. And no matter what the adherents of any denomination or what the neo-non-denominationalists might think, that simply isn’t happening today.

I think this is what Paul's teaching about the members of the Body and our various gifts and the necessity to meet together to build each other up with those gifts is all about. A totally alien concept to the traditional Sunday church service. It doesn't fit in. Tradition has won out over what works and what God actually intended for us to do when we meet together.

I still believe that those who are in Christ today, are in Christ in spite of Christianity, not because of it. God will come to the aid of those who truly seek him.

I've come to this very same conclusion.

I don't believe that God chooses who will see or not see certain things.

I do to a small extent. By small I mean some are simply more gifted than others and appointed and equipped to help others see to the extent they can. Some are simply given more depth of the Word than others as seen in the parables. But the goal the knowledge we have is to bring us to is identical.

Anymore than I believe that God chooses the human ministries in Christianity. Though the majority would disagree, I’m sure. Personal ministries in Christianity depend on the abilities of the individuals involved. It’s as normal a gravitation process as it is with all who are in Adam. While seeing what isn't apparent to others depends on individual attitude and open mindedness to see.

Sounds like you're saying God does not ordain certain men/ women for specific ministries and tasks in the world. I disagree. Though I think more people need to consider the truth of Romans 12:3. Far fewer of us than people think are appointed to significant ministries. But because the church emphasizes the service of ministry (over the obedience of character) so much it's hard to accept that the Bible actually puts a precautionary brake pedal on one's service to God.

In the New Testament, the seeing of visions is recorded as if they’re a normal occurrence. Something that I personally, due to the influence of modern Christian Tradition on me, would be very afraid to see. I would no doubt think I'm losing my mind. Something that seems to not have even entered the minds of those in the New Testament era who saw visions. Yet I do take for granted that what I see is intended to be what every one who is in Christ is supposed to see. Even though what I see isn’t due to visions or hearing actual voices. I have no doubt that the only reason I’ve never experienced a vision is because of my own attitude and lack of open mindedness in regard to such a thing. Nevertheless, what I am able to see is as real to me as seeing a physical Christian Church and all the accouterments associated with it.

I'm also of the opinion that the church is powerless and not supernatural (even though the Bible talks plainly about being so) because somewhere along the line a self serving doctrine of the end of everything supernatural took root. As we see, the gifts work by faith, but if the church is busy tearing down faith in the supernatural, well, is it any surprise that no one has the faith to walk in a supernatural gift?

It puzzled me at first, when I first began to see things that Christians could not. And I’m talking about things that are more than just the usual doctrinal controversies in Christianity. That was a very hard time for me. I almost agreed with the militant Atheists that Christianity will make one insane.

The only thing that makes me insane is how the church has rejected so much truth. I did question the wonderful truths God showed me, too, because it seemed they were not believed on in the church, even though they are right in the Bible (that's where I learned them). To keep me on pace, God confirmed his Word through other people who were experiencing the same growth I was (there I go again, how arrogant!)

You don’t know how close I came to pulling away from it all. But eventually, I didn’t pull away. Rather, I adapted my thinking and actions to what I was seeing.

This is where we differ. Pulling away was just not an option. It's the truth, and that's just the way it is. There's nothing to go back to.

But who knows. Maybe I’m quite insane. They say the insane never know they’re insane. On the other hand, who defines what or who is insane? Surely it’s everyone else who’s insane except me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee. He said, as insane laughter rolled from his mouth.

FC

Well, I'll be perfectly frank with you. Until I learn a little more about you, I have a guarded sense about your post right now. There really are a lot of whackos in the church, you know.