The Gospel of Grace

[francisdesales]

I do believe. I believe, have faith, trust and confidence in what Jesus did on the cross.

A person who has faith, trust and confidence in God has no problems with the Command to Love, given to us by Christ, as I have already laid out for you. It is not a burden, as He said. Does this love for others earn us salvation? No. But if we do not have this love, how can we call ourselves "saved"???

Being saved is not a legal declaration. Being saved indicates an actual change within one's heart. Thus, if one is NOT doing the works of Christ, NOT becoming perfected as God is perfect, NOT setting aside evil ways, in WHAT way are they saved? Christ came to give life and give it NOW, not just in the next life.

His work has set me free.

It appears, in your mind, Christ's work freed you to sin and sin all the more, since you are "covered" with the "righteousness of Christ". Too bad that is not biblical.

Sorry that you cannot seem to see me as a child of God.

Oh boy. Did I say that? Like many children, you are just confused. But that doesn't mean you are not a child of God...

But I am one because Jesus has made me one and no man can take that away from me. Nor will your attempts to make me think I am not a child of God make me place my faith, trust, confidence in men and their understanding.

Continue to trust in God. But true trust and faith in God breeds obedience to His Command to Love. James said faith alone, merely assent, is not enough - for even the devil believes... No, being saved includes loving our neighbor. This appears to be the entire point of James - a corrective to those who mis-read Paul's letter to the Galatians or Romans... James 2 attacks your very attitude!

What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

The answer, of course, is NO...

Regards

 

[RichardBurger]

First of all I wish to say that religious teachings of men that indicate a person becomes righteous in the flesh are an insult to the simplicity that is found in Christ.

2 Cor 11:3 NKJV

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You can preach works that a person must do to become righteous, or show their faith, all you wish but there is no way you can become righteous in the flesh. But you will not give up works because you do not really believe, have faith in, have trust in, have confidence in the work of God on the cross. To the religious that just isn’t enough. They do not understand that only the born again spirit of a man is righteous. That a child of God has two natures (Romans 7). The following scriptures indicate that that righteousness is freely given to those of faith apart from works of the flesh and support my views.

1 Cor 2:12 NKJV

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Rom 3:21-26 NKJV God's Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 4:5-8 NKJV

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

Rom 9:30-10:1 NKJV

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Only those that have placed their faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus and His work on the cross know if they do or not. And certainly God knows them and sees that they glorify God’s Son. They do not have to prove to men that they have faith.

 

[Drew]

First of all I wish to say that religious teachings of men that indicate a person becomes righteous in the flesh are an insult to the simplicity that is found in Christ.

Rom 3:21-26 NKJV God's Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You post this text as if you think it deals with a status of righteousness that we "get" from God. That is not what this particular text is about. It is about God's own righteousness, his covenantally faithful actions. It is not about a righteousness imputed or ascribed to us. We do indeed obtain a status of righteousness from God.

But that is not what Paul is writing about in this particular text.

 

[Adullam]

First of all I wish to say that religious teachings of men that indicate a person becomes righteous in the flesh are an insult to the simplicity that is found in Christ.

2 Cor 11:3 NKJV

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You can preach works that a person must do to become righteous, or show their faith, all you wish but there is no way you can become righteous in the flesh. But you will not give up works because you do not really believe, have faith in, have trust in, have confidence in the work of God on the cross. To the religious that just isn’t enough. They do not understand that only the born again spirit of a man is righteous. That a child of God has two natures (Romans 7). The following scriptures indicate that that righteousness is freely given to those of faith apart from works of the flesh and support my views.

1 Cor 2:12 NKJV

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Rom 3:21-26 NKJV God's Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 4:5-8 NKJV

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

Rom 9:30-10:1 NKJV

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Only those that have placed their faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus and His work on the cross know if they do or not. And certainly God knows them and sees that they glorify God’s Son. They do not have to prove to men that they have faith.

You are perfectly describing the modern "salvation through one's own opinion" It is merely a modification of "You are what you think" It is no wonder that those who preach this have psychiatry degrees.

It is a religion of "assent to salvation" subverting the real message of the Way of Christ. "Just say yes" it says. "Claim it for yourself".... "Visualize".... "Imagine yourself siting on God's lap" (The key word here is imagine) Since this playmaking doesn't have any power over sin, you will find those who practice this form of charade will speak invariably against righteousness and holiness. They prove their doctrine by their own lack of either righteousness or holiness. It is a religion of agnostics seeking a special gnosis of salvation (the inside track as it were).

Ask if the brother beside him is also "saved" and he will say..."I don't know? Ask him!"

One would hope that a supernatural birth and power could not be so easily masked.

Isn't the whole point of the gift of the Holy Spirit for us to be a light to this world, showing a holy life through the power of the risen Lord?

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." 2 Cor. 4:7

This power is manifested NOW in these mortal bodies so that we walk as our Master Jesus Christ. Do you deny this?

 

[francisdesales]

First of all I wish to say that religious teachings of men that indicate a person becomes righteous in the flesh are an insult to the simplicity that is found in Christ.

2 Cor 11:3 NKJV

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You can preach works that a person must do to become righteous, or show their faith, all you wish but there is no way you can become righteous in the flesh.

Could you explain the distinction of being "righteous in the flesh" vs. whatever else you have in mind? I am not aware of that term used in Scriptures... Are you refering to self-righteousness?

But you will not give up works because you do not really believe, have faith in, have trust in, have confidence in the work of God on the cross.

How ironic... You tell me I don't really believe, have faith, etc., but it is you who refuse to follow the King of your life - so you claim. Being a disciple of Christ means taking up our cross, loving in the face of hardships, turning the other cheek and putting aside our pride. It is not about getting a "bus ticket" that allows you a free ride to heaven because you 'believe' in some historical event...

To the religious that just isn’t enough. They do not understand that only the born again spirit of a man is righteous. That a child of God has two natures (Romans 7). The following scriptures indicate that that righteousness is freely given to those of faith apart from works of the flesh and support my views.

Faith apart from the works OF THE LAW! You do not understand Paul. He sets aside the necessity to follow works of the Law, the dietary laws and circumcision. Clearly, Paul contrasts circumcision and lack thereof amongst the greatest of Hebrews, Abraham, in Romans. He was declared just BEFORE his circumcision. And so Paul says we don't need to follow SUCH works of the law. But he doesn't say we no longer have to love - quite the opposite. He says faith without love is WORTHLESS, in 1 Cor 13. You can have the faith to move mountains, but without love, shown through your works, your faith is meaningless. James states the same thing in different words. What good is faith without works - you ignoramus - he writes - clearly showing that there were a few misinformed people in his day as well as ours...

1 Cor 2:12 NKJV

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

My signature shows that I think I did it all by myself, right???

Only those that have placed their faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus and His work on the cross know if they do or not. And certainly God knows them and sees that they glorify God’s Son. They do not have to prove to men that they have faith.

That is not why we are commanded to love. Again, you claim to trust in Jesus, but you refuse to follow His teachings... Where does Jesus say that "after I die, you won't have to obey the commandments, won't have to love, anymore"???? Pure hogwash...

Your idea of salvation is getting a bus ticket. Not about the forgiveness of sin which brings men into union with God EVEN NOW. We begin to change, to become perfected, even now - and that is what it means to be saved. Saved from sin and its effects. We don't have to be drawn into a life of sin. What sort of salvation do you pretend to offer by continuing to live in sin and addiction - yet hold that bus ticket up and claim - "I believe"...

It falls on deaf ears...

 

[RichardBurger]

I wish you all would quit implying that I am against loving other etc. I have never said that. You all have said it. What I have said is that our works do not save us. I have also said that works do not prove a person is saved (born again).

Do I love other? Yes as much as a person can while living in a body of sin. But that does not save me.

Am I compassionate towards others? Yes as much as a person can while living in a body of sin. But that does not save me.

Since I can not continually love others and continually have compassion towards others then I will not boast of my works of love and compassion. Nor will I tell others that they must do them. I am not a hypocrite. However I will boast about the work of God on the cross.

Gal 6:13-15 NKJV
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Paraphased: Not even those who preach works do the works, but they desire to have you do the works so they can boast in your flesh.

Many accuse me of WANTING to sin but that is just what they say to try an belittle me. Saying a child of God wants to sin is building a strawman. It does not exist. No child of God WANTS to sin. They are like Paul in Romans 7.

In Romans 7 we see that Paul has a struggle within himself, a struggle between his fleshly nature and his born again spiritual nature. What does he say??? Does he say that he can resist doing the things he wants not to do? Does he say he wants to sin? NO! He says just the opposite. In the end he states that with his mind he serves God but with the flesh he serves the law of sin.

Rom 7:13-25 NKJV

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God  through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

You will say that verse 24 and 25 means He changes a persons sinful nature but I do not believe it says that. It means His blood makes us righteous before God even while we sin.

You had better believe that because no matter what you say you still sin in the flesh just as much as I do.

 

[Adullam]

I wish you all would quit implying that I am against loving other etc. I have never said that. You all have said it. What I have said is that our works do not save us. I have also said that works do not prove a person is saved (born again).

Do I love other? Yes as much as a person can while living in a body of sin. But that does not save me.

Am I compassionate towards others? Yes as much as a person can while living in a body of sin. But that does not save me.

Since I can not continually love others and continually have compassion towards others then I will not boast of my works of love and compassion. Nor will I tell others that they must do them. I am not a hypocrite. However I will boast about the work of God on the cross.

Gal 6:13-15 NKJV
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Paraphased: Not even those who preach works do the works, but they desire to have you do the works so they can boast in your flesh.

Many accuse me of WANTING to sin but that is just what they say to try an belittle me. Saying a child of God wants to sin is building a strawman. It does not exist. No child of God WANTS to sin. They are like Paul in Romans 7.

In Romans 7 we see that Paul has a struggle within himself, a struggle between his fleshly nature and his born again spiritual nature. What does he say??? Does he say that he can resist doing the things he wants not to do? Does he say he wants to sin? NO! He says just the opposite. In the end he states that with his mind he serves God but with the flesh he serves the law of sin.

Rom 7:13-25 NKJV

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God  through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

You will say that verse 24 and 25 means He changes a persons sinful nature but I do not believe it says that. It means His blood makes us righteous before God even while we sin.

You had better believe that because no matter what you say you still sin in the flesh just as much as I do.

You are witnessing of what your gospel of grace has done for you. Not much. I would prefer the gospel of the kingdom of God. There is power there. Your lack of humility is evident in justifying your lack by accusing others of being no different than you. Would you limit Christ? Your error is great. There is actual victory over sin in Christ. Just because you have not known this power in no way denies it's existence.

Rather you should say...I have not yet found the victory that the bible teaches that those who have faith will experience. Be like the publican who beat his chest saying....woe is me a sinner. Perhaps God will hear you from heaven. Accusing and belittling others is more the work of the Pharisee.

 

[RichardBurger]

I wish you all would quit implying that I am against loving other etc. I have never said that. You all have said it. What I have said is that our works do not save us. I have also said that works do not prove a person is saved (born again).

Do I love other? Yes as much as a person can while living in a body of sin. But that does not save me.

Am I compassionate towards others? Yes as much as a person can while living in a body of sin. But that does not save me.

Since I can not continually love others and continually have compassion towards others then I will not boast of my works of love and compassion. Nor will I tell others that they must do them. I am not a hypocrite. However I will boast about the work of God on the cross.

Gal 6:13-15 NKJV
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Paraphased: Not even those who preach works do the works, but they desire to have you do the works so they can boast in your flesh.

Many accuse me of WANTING to sin but that is just what they say to try an belittle me. Saying a child of God wants to sin is building a strawman. It does not exist. No child of God WANTS to sin. They are like Paul in Romans 7.

In Romans 7 we see that Paul has a struggle within himself, a struggle between his fleshly nature and his born again spiritual nature. What does he say??? Does he say that he can resist doing the things he wants not to do? Does he say he wants to sin? NO! He says just the opposite. In the end he states that with his mind he serves God but with the flesh he serves the law of sin.

Rom 7:13-25 NKJV

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God  through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

You will say that verse 24 and 25 means He changes a persons sinful nature but I do not believe it says that. It means His blood makes us righteous before God even while we sin.

You had better believe that because no matter what you say you still sin in the flesh just as much as I do.

You are witnessing of what your gospel of grace has done for you. Not much. I would prefer the gospel of the kingdom of God. There is power there. Your lack of humility is evident in justifying your lack by accusing others of being no different than you. Would you limit Christ? Your error is great. There is actual victory over sin in Christ. Just because you have not known this power in no way denies it's existence.

Rather you should say...I have not yet found the victory that the bible teaches that those who have faith will experience. Be like the publican who beat his chest saying....woe is me a sinner. Perhaps God will hear you from heaven. Accusing and belittling others is more the work of the Pharisee.

Nor has anyone else ever experienced the victory you are talkng about because they still sin. You claim to have this victory and yet you still sin, unless you want to make God a liar because he said the person who says he has no sin is a liar. You claim I have no humility and yet you claim to be sinless. What a joke!