THE GREAT I AM

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

You, however, are saying that the Son is of a different nature than the Father. That, as I said, makes that relationship meaningless to us

Yes, Jesus was born human nature Hebrews 2:14, Romans 8:3 and God the Father was his father of this conception/birth and Mary his mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14. God the Father did not create another God in this birth, this new Father/Son relationship. Jesus was born mortal. The concept of him having two natures is a impossible myth.

Kind regards
Trevor.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings fish123,

What RM and some others on this board need is the touch and revelation of the Spirit of God to see that Jesus is indeed GOD. We do not come to this conclusion through human wisdom or understanding. We come to this knowledge when the Spirit reveals it clearly to us through His Holy Word. So we need to pray for those on this board who are trying to understand Spiritual things with the Natural mind. May God reveal the truth to them through His Spirit.

Yes, welcome to the forum. Your Holy Spirit inspiration has made a mistake or you got your wires crossed in your mind as you claim that the Title "The Son of God" represents that Jesus is God.

Simon answers correctly: "You are the Messiah, the SON of the LIVING GOD". It was through the Father's revelation that Peter came to see that Jesus was God.

Nathanael needed special revelation to see that Jesus is God. He says "You are the Son of God;
Nathanael clearly realized Jesus is GOD.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again Free,

Yes, Jesus was born human nature Hebrews 2:14, Romans 8:3 and God the Father was his father of this conception/birth and Mary his mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14. God the Father did not create another God in this birth, this new Father/Son relationship. Jesus was born mortal. The concept of him having two natures is a impossible myth.

Kind regards
Trevor.

Yes, Hebrews 2:14 and Romans 8:3 are parallel verses saying the same exact thing.

 

[Free]

Yes, Jesus was born human nature Hebrews 2:14, Romans 8:3 and God the Father was his father of this conception/birth and Mary his mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14.

Okay, so the Father and Son have different natures. This makes that relationship completely meaningless to us; it communicates nothing to us, which is odd given just how much emphasis is put on it.

God the Father did not create another God in this birth, this new Father/Son relationship.

Of course he didn't. That is not what Trinitarianism teaches.

Jesus was born mortal.

And preexisted as the divine Son, being both human and divine after his birth.

The concept of him having two natures is a impossible myth.

How, exactly, is it impossible? You need to prove it, not just state it.

 

[JLB]

No, I believe that The Angel of Yahweh is The Angel that appeared to Moses and spoke and acted on behalf of Yahweh.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. Exodus 3:2

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

The scripture plainly says Moses was afraid to look upon the Angel of the LORD; God who appeared to Him

• I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob

This is what Jesus said to the Jews, and why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, because He was saying that He Himself was the God of Abraham; I AM
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free and JLB,

Okay, so the Father and Son have different natures. This makes that relationship completely meaningless to us; it communicates nothing to us, which is odd given just how much emphasis is put on it.

I am not sure if this is only your own personal view, or the view of Trinitarians in general. I cannot fathom your reasoning here. Perhaps all that you see in Christ and his ministry is God walking and talking. I see a human, the perfect development from a child to the age of 33. He was the complete and perfect character. All the faithful who preceded him only partially pointed forward to the character of Jesus. Hebrews 1 speaks of the many parts and many ways of all previous revelations of God, while the complete revelation is in the Son:
Hebrews 1:1–2 (AV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The Apostle Paul is a great example to us, but the greatest is Jesus:
1 Corinthians 11:1 (AV): Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Here is one expression of the character and ministry of Jesus, that we are exhorted to follow:
1 Peter 2:19–25 (AV): 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Is this speaking here of a being who is God, who cannot be tempted or tried, or is this our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the beloved Son of God?

This is what Jesus said to the Jews, and why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, because He was saying that He Himself was the God of Abraham; I AM

A very neat Trinitarian exposition. I agree with Tyndale that Exodus 3:14 should be translated in the future tense and his rendition is "I wilbe". The word Elohim often translated God can apply to the Angels and Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again Free and JLB,

I am not sure if this is only your own personal view, or the view of Trinitarians in general. I cannot fathom your reasoning here. Perhaps all that you see in Christ and his ministry is God walking and talking. I see a human, the perfect development from a child to the age of 33. He was the complete and perfect character. All the faithful who preceded him only partially pointed forward to the character of Jesus. Hebrews 1 speaks of the many parts and many ways of all previous revelations of God, while the complete revelation is in the Son:
Hebrews 1:1–2 (AV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The Apostle Paul is a great example to us, but the greatest is Jesus:
1 Corinthians 11:1 (AV): Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Here is one expression of the character and ministry of Jesus, that we are exhorted to follow:
1 Peter 2:19–25 (AV): 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Is this speaking here of a being who is God, who cannot be tempted or tried, or is this our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the beloved Son of God?


A very neat Trinitarian exposition. I agree with Tyndale that Exodus 3:14 should be translated in the future tense and his rendition is "I wilbe". The word Elohim often translated God can apply to the Angels and Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

There’s a big difference in saying “I Am what I Am” and “I will be what I will be”.
The former suggests a God who never changes, while the latter suggests One who does.
“Before Abraham was I will be”?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings LeviR,

There’s a big difference in saying “I Am what I Am” and “I will be what I will be”.
The former suggests a God who never changes, while the latter suggests One who does.

Context! Context! The Divine Name in Exodus 3:14 is associated with the fact that God would be with Moses in delivering Israel from under their bondage in Egypt. A future activity, not a statement of existence - refer AB Davidson. Refer also my thread The Yahweh Name.

“Before Abraham was I will be”?

Jesus is not quoting or alluding to Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings LeviR,

Context! Context! The Divine Name in Exodus 3:14 is associated with the fact that God would be with Moses in delivering Israel from under their bondage in Egypt. A future activity, not a statement of existence - refer AB Davidson. Refer also my thread The Yahweh Name.

Jesus is not quoting or alluding to Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yeah, I don’t think it can be determined without doubt that Jesus was referring to Exodus 3:14.
God was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. And would be the same God to those He brought out from Egypt.

 

[JLB]

A very neat Trinitarian exposition. I agree with Tyndale that Exodus 3:14 should be translated in the future tense and his rendition is "I wilbe". The word Elohim often translated God can apply to the Angels and Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews try to stone Him when He said … Before Abraham was, I AM?





JLB

 

[Runningman]

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews try to stone Him when He said … Before Abraham was, I AM?





JLB

According to Scripture, there are no verses of Jesus saying or doing anything before Abraham.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews try to stone Him when He said … Before Abraham was, I AM?





JLB

Good morning, That is a good question, My personal view of this is that they did not know of His Pre-Existence with the Father, https://www.google.com/search?q=Christ+Pre-Existence+with+the+Father/Scripture&sca_esv=47d9023402be2ded&sca_upv=1&source=hp&ei=R2CBZu_tI8PP0PEPo8Hq6AM&iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZoFuV5fJ-UB1wLfBPIIwXka9M6HHbN0v&ved=0ahUKEwivrfH6uYOHAxXDJzQIHaOgGj0Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=Christ+Pre-Existence+with+the+Father/Scripture&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ii5DaHJpc3QgUHJlLUV4aXN0ZW5jZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBGYXRoZXIvU2NyaXB0dXJlMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUi75QNQAFi8mANwAXgAkAEAmAGmAaABwRKqAQUxNC4xMLgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCGaACwRPCAgUQIRirAsICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIIEAAYogQYiQWYAwCSBwUxMS4xNKAHmkE&sclient=gws-wiz

Other Views:
Selected Text: ```text Why did the Jews try to stone Him when He said … Before Abraham was, I AM?```


In the Gospel of John, there’s a powerful moment when Jesus declares, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Let’s explore the significance of this statement:

1. Divine Identity: When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am,” He intentionally invoked the name of God. The phrase “I am” is significant because it echoes God’s self-revelation to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). By using this phrase, Jesus was proclaiming His divine identity.
2. Radical Claim: Jesus wasn’t merely saying He existed before Abraham; He was asserting His eternal existence. The Jews understood this and considered it blasphemous. They picked up stones to stone Him because they recognized that He was claiming to be God Himself.

Love, Walter

 

[JLB]

1. Divine Identity: When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am,” He intentionally invoked the name of God. The phrase “I am” is significant because it echoes God’s self-revelation to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). By using this phrase, Jesus was proclaiming His divine identity.
2. Radical Claim: Jesus wasn’t merely saying He existed before Abraham; He was asserting His eternal existence. The Jews understood this and considered it blasphemous. They picked up stones to stone Him because they recognized that He was claiming to be God Himself.

Amen.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

Why did the Jews try to stone Him when He said … Before Abraham was, I AM?

This was at the conclusion of a sequence of events starting in John 7 where they had tried to arrest him, and then entrap him with the adulterous woman and stone him on that occasion, and then the arguments in John 8 about who is the true seed of Abraham, with Jesus denouncing the Pharisees. John is drawing upon the the theme of revealing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31, and here the emphasis is whether or not Jesus is the Christ. In John 8:24 and John 8:28 Jesus declared that he is the Christ, using the expression "I am he". Here similarly in John 8:58 he uses the same expression, and this should also be translated "I am he" the same as previously.

The Jews were frustrated that the people did not stone Jesus, but after the earlier incident when Jesus had shown their duplicity concerning casting the first stone, here the Jews failed to provoke some volatile member of the audience to cast the first stone. The Pharisees would be scared to cast the stones, as the common people who received Jesus' words and works with gladness would have turned on them. It is unusual that both here in John 8:58 and another favourite Trinitarian verse John 10:30 that Trinitarians take the same side and arguments of the Pharisees and ignore the actual teaching of Jesus in both these verses and contexts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Greetings again JLB,

This was at the conclusion of a sequence of events starting in John 7 where they had tried to arrest him, and then entrap him with the adulterous woman and stone him on that occasion, and then the arguments in John 8 about who is the true seed of Abraham, with Jesus denouncing the Pharisees. John is drawing upon the the theme of revealing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31, and here the emphasis is whether or not Jesus is the Christ. In John 8:24 and John 8:28 Jesus declared that he is the Christ, using the expression "I am he". Here similarly in John 8:58 he uses the same expression, and this should also be translated "I am he" the same as previously.

The Jews were frustrated that the people did not stone Jesus, but after the earlier incident when Jesus had shown their duplicity concerning casting the first stone, here the Jews failed to provoke some volatile member of the audience to cast the first stone. The Pharisees would be scared to cast the stones, as the common people who received Jesus' words and works with gladness would have turned on them. It is unusual that both here in John 8:58 and another favourite Trinitarian verse John 10:30 that Trinitarians take the same side and arguments of the Pharisees and ignore the actual teaching of Jesus in both these verses and contexts.

Kind regards
Trevor

Actually this was a dialog between Jesus and those who believed in Him as Messiah but not as LORD, much like we have today.


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:31-36

They were deceived in thinking they were not in bondage to anyone, even though at that moment they were in bondage to the Romans.


The scripture says it was "then", at the moment He said these particular words that they picked up stones to stone Him...

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

They plainly understood He was saying that He was the God of Abraham; the God who appeared to Moses in the burning bush.

As we see from that account -

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. Exodus 3:2

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

Here we see the Angel of the LORD declare Himself to be the God of Abraham, just as Jesus did.

Also we the scriptures plainly say Moses was afraid to look upon God.

• Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus Christ is YHWH the LORD God of Israel who became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16



JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

Actually this was a dialog between Jesus and those who believed in Him as Messiah but not as LORD, much like we have today.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Fair enough, it was also some of the crowd as well as the Pharisees who ended up opposing Jesus. These were not long term disciples, but had only responded to what Jesus had just said:
John 8:28–30 (KJV): 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Jesus is certainly not preaching being Deity in John 8:28 as Jesus calls himself the Son of Man, and that he is completely dependent on God, his Father.

Jesus sought further commitment from them, and only if they listened to and accepted fully what Jesus was teaching could they become true disciples. This is a repeat of what you quoted:
John 8:31–32 (KJV): 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

But Jesus knew that their present response was only superficial, because underneath they still sought to kill him:
John 8:37 (KJV): I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

They were deceived in thinking they were not in bondage to anyone, even though at that moment they were in bondage to the Romans.

Jesus states that they were still in bondage to sin because their belief was still superficial. He is not speaking about the Romans:
John 8:34–36 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Jesus states that they were still in bondage to sin because their belief was still superficial. He is not speaking about the Romans:
John 8:34–36 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Kind regards
Trevor

I didn't say Jesus said they were in bondage to the Romans. Jesus always dealt with the root cause of people's issue which was sin, and the devil.

They, the Jews who were speaking to Jesus were in blatant denial of their condition, both natural and spiritual.

They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” John 8:33

IOW's sin is deceptive, it's deceitful.




JLB

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free and JLB,

I am not sure if this is only your own personal view, or the view of Trinitarians in general. I cannot fathom your reasoning here.

Because we are the analogues to God, not the other way around. If we are made in God's image and have father and son relationships, that means those reflect something of God, something we can know about him. At a minimum, since we know that sons are always the same nature as their fathers--it cannot be otherwise--then that reflects God's revelation of Father and Son. If the Son is not the same nature as the Father, then the whole thing breaks down and God's use of Father and Son communicates nothing to us.

Perhaps all that you see in Christ and his ministry is God walking and talking. I see a human, the perfect development from a child to the age of 33. He was the complete and perfect character. All the faithful who preceded him only partially pointed forward to the character of Jesus. Hebrews 1 speaks of the many parts and many ways of all previous revelations of God, while the complete revelation is in the Son:
Hebrews 1:1–2 (AV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It's interesting to note the parts that you underlined and bolded, and the one main part you didn't: "by whom also he made the worlds." Just one of many passages that clearly point to the preexistence of the Son, showing that he is not merely human.

The Apostle Paul is a great example to us, but the greatest is Jesus:
1 Corinthians 11:1 (AV): Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Here is one expression of the character and ministry of Jesus, that we are exhorted to follow:
1 Peter 2:19–25 (AV): 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Is this speaking here of a being who is God, who cannot be tempted or tried, or is this our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the beloved Son of God?

That is a false dichotomy. It isn't whether Jesus is God or is human, he is both; two natures in one person. It is precisely because he is divine that he maintained his sinlessness and is the basis for why his sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of all humans who have ever or will ever live. If he was a mere human, not only would that mean he was an insufficient sacrifice, but it it would imply that others, too, could live completely sinless lives, which also shows why his sacrifice would have been insufficient.

I'll break that down a bit more. First, if Jesus was a mere human, he was a mere creature. And we know from the OT sacrificial system that no animal was enough to once and for all die for sin. Being a mere human would not change that fact. Second, if Jesus was merely human, then it is possible that some people have and some people will live perfectly sinless lives. That means they also could die for sins, which means that Jesus's sacrifice was insufficient for all the sins of humanity past, present, and future.

Jesus's humanity means that he completely identifies with us and our weaknesses, tempted in every way as we are. Yet, because he is also divine, was able to resist temptation and remain sinless, being not only the unblemished sacrifice required the law, but an infinite sacrifice able to cover every sin ever committed or that will be committed.

God did what man could not, so that his justice would be satisfied and holiness maintained while showing the immeasurable greatness of his love toward us, as seen in his mercy and grace.

 

[Fish153]

Great post Fish!
I agree totally.
Welcome to the Forum.

Thank you God's Grace! May God bless you!

 

[LeviR]

According to Scripture, there are no verses of Jesus saying or doing anything before Abraham.

Give me a massage.