THE GREAT I AM

[LeviR]

To give the concept of the word a face, it would be the face of God.
To give the concept of the word to mortal flesh, it would be the face of Jesus.

2Co 4:6 - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[LeviR]

Moses asked God, show me thy glory. God said, no man can see My face and live.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 1:1 says the Word was God and you're right God doesn't stop being God which is my point. Yet the Word was God in the past tense. So how do we deal with the fact the Word "was" God in the past tense when it follows the Word wouldn't be God now? It's because the Word isn't literally God.

It's personification of the Word of God. Logos literally means something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression. This isn't talking about an actual person. 1 John 1:1-4 refers to the Word of Life as a thing that was revealed through Jesus.

John 1:9 also refers to the true Light coming into the world in the present tense and it says the true Life gives light to all men. John the baptist was testifying about this. That would place the age of Jesus of about 30 years old (John 3:23) when the true Light was coming into the world. That also means Jesus isn't the true light.

I also might add, the disciples are also the light of the world (Matthew 5:14) and so is Jesus (John 8:12) but they aren't the true Light. Only the true Light gives light to men.

Nothing in John 1 says Jesus is God.

As I said RM
You'll have to come to terms about Jesus being God in your own time.

 

[LeviR]

As I said RM
You'll have to come to terms about Jesus being God in your own time.

The nice thing about it is you don’t have to go outside of scripture to where the next thing you know you’re adding your own words and phases like “Trinity”, “eternally begotten”, “ one ousia, two hypostasis”, “God-man”, “Two natures”, “mother of God”, “co-eternal”, co-equal” etc.

He was first son of God, crucified in weakness of the flesh. He was then declared son of God in power by resurrection of the dead to die no more.
The first nature he had was human nature. And the second nature he now has is the divine nature.

2Co 13:4 - For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Rom 1:4 - And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spiritof holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 6:5 - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

2Pe 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: thatby these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptionthat is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear whatwe shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for weshall see him as he is.

1Co 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:48 - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly,such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And I added nothing.

False doctrines give themselves away, hence, “Trinity”, “eternally begotten”, “ one ousia, two hypostasis”, “God-man”, “Two natures”, “mother of God”, “co-eternal”, co-equal” etc

 

[GodsGrace]

The nice thing about it is you don’t have to go outside of scripture to where the next thing you know you’re adding your own words and phases like “Trinity”, “eternally begotten”, “ one ousia, two hypostasis”, “God-man”, “Two natures”, “mother of God”, “co-eternal”, co-equal” etc.

He was first son of God, crucified in weakness of the flesh. He was then declared son of God in power by resurrection of the dead to die no more.
The first nature he had was human nature. And the second nature he now has is the divine nature.

2Co 13:4 - For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Rom 1:4 - And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spiritof holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 6:5 - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

2Pe 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: thatby these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptionthat is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear whatwe shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for weshall see him as he is.

1Co 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:48 - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly,such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And I added nothing.

False doctrines give themselves away, hence, “Trinity”, “eternally begotten”, “ one ousia, two hypostasis”, “God-man”, “Two natures”, “mother of God”, “co-eternal”, co-equal” etc

Did you just state that Jesus was born a human being but died as a divine being?

Could you post a verse that states this?

 

[Runningman]

Did you just state that Jesus was born a human being but died as a divine being?

Could you post a verse that states this?

1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I believe LeviR probably meant 1 Corinthians 15:45 for that.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Walter and Free,

Good morning TrevorL, https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=43...A0gEJODExNDlqMGoxqAIAsAIA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531

I reject the Trinitarian biased translation of Exodus 3:14 "I AM" and I endorse Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:12-14 in the future tense, and I also like his interesting spelling “I wilbe”. Refer also my thread "The Yahweh Name".
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
...
Joh 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (ESV)

Jesus rejected their false accusation and gave a thorough answer including the fact that the Judges were called "gods" or Elohim because they spoke and administered the word of God.

So, when God uses the terms "Father" and "Son," we know what that entails. We know that it is impossible for a son to be of a different nature than his father. Human fathers always have human sons; it simply cannot be otherwise. Therefore, when Jesus calls himself the Son of God or claims that God is his Father, it communicates to us that they are of the same nature.

Jesus is the human Son of God because God the Father is his father in the begettal/birth process.
Luke 1:34–35 (AV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus was of human nature, the same as us:
Hebrews 2:14 (AV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He is also the Son of God because by the time of his ministry he fully revealed the character of God. This was achieved through his special birth and his special education.
John 1:14 (AV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

We don't know exactly what it means--there are many possibilities, with no certainty--but it doesn't matter. The Jews twist Jesus's words into the question in verse 57: 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”.' And it is that question that Jesus addresses, where adding "he" and understanding it as such makes no grammatical sense.

I suggest that Jesus is alluding to Abraham's statement based upon the sacrifice of Isaac:
Genesis 22:14 (AV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
The Pharisees deliberately muddied the waters. You are looking at the muddied waters and prefer to leave it as obscure, rather than understanding what Jesus is saying. Jesus is greater than Abraham because he is the Messiah.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe LeviR probably meant 1 Corinthians 15:45 for that.

I don't know what he meant.
We'll have to wait and see.

 

[JLB]

I reject the Trinitarian biased translation of Exodus 3:14 "I AM" and I endorse Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:12-14 in the future tense, and I also like his interesting spelling “I wilbe”. Refer also my thread "The Yahweh Name".
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD is the Son of God?

 

[LeviR]

I don't know what he meant.
We'll have to wait and see.

2Co 13:4 - For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Rom 1:4 - And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spiritof holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 6:5 - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

2Pe 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: thatby these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptionthat is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear whatwe shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for weshall see him as he is.

1Co 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Jesus was to be called son of God when he was born of Mary. He was fully man, as all the rest. That was his only nature. He was crucified in weakness of the flesh.

He was then declared son of God with power by resurrection from the dead to die no more.

He first shared the human nature as all. He now shares the never dying divine nature as His God and Father.

And just like him, we are sons of God in weakness of the mortal flesh, but just like him, we will share the divine nature when we, like him, are raised from the dead.
The verses I posted, and there are many more, which confirm this truth, are clear to anyone who can read and comprehend.

 

[Runningman]

2Co 13:4 - For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Rom 1:4 - And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spiritof holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 6:5 - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

2Pe 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: thatby these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptionthat is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear whatwe shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for weshall see him as he is.

1Co 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Jesus was to be called son of God when he was born of Mary. He was fully man, as all the rest. That was his only nature. He was crucified in weakness of the flesh.

He was then declared son of God with power by resurrection from the dead to die no more.

He first shared the human nature as all. He now shares the never dying divine nature as His God and Father.

And just like him, we are sons of God in weakness of the mortal flesh, but just like him, we will share the divine nature when we, like him, are raised from the dead.
The verses I posted, and there are many more, which confirm this truth, are clear to anyone who can read and comprehend.

Here's a question, Acts 13:33 says "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."

So Paul said that Psalm 2:5 was fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected. Means to say, Jesus became the Son of God at the resurrection but Jesus also spoke of himself as the Son of God before this. Are there multiple senses of being the Son of God?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Greetings again Walter and Free,

I reject the Trinitarian biased translation of Exodus 3:14 "I AM" and I endorse Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:12-14 in the future tense, and I also like his interesting spelling “I wilbe”. Refer also my thread "The Yahweh Name".
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.


Jesus rejected their false accusation and gave a thorough answer including the fact that the Judges were called "gods" or Elohim because they spoke and administered the word of God.

Jesus is the human Son of God because God the Father is his father in the begettal/birth process.
Luke 1:34–35 (AV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus was of human nature, the same as us:
Hebrews 2:14 (AV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He is also the Son of God because by the time of his ministry he fully revealed the character of God. This was achieved through his special birth and his special education.
John 1:14 (AV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth


I suggest that Jesus is alluding to Abraham's statement based upon the sacrifice of Isaac:
Genesis 22:14 (AV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
The Pharisees deliberately muddied the waters. You are looking at the muddied waters and prefer to leave it as obscure, rather than understanding what Jesus is saying. Jesus is greater than Abraham because he is the Messiah.

Kind regards
Trevor

Good morning TrevorL, What is your belief? We believe that Jesus Christ Is The Messiah, The Son Of The Living GOD, and our Saviour, Most importantly we believe also of what Jesus says in John 4:24 KJV, Ecclesiastes 12: 13, 14 KJV

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[LeviR]

Here's a question, Acts 13:33 says "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."

So Paul said that Psalm 2:5 was fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected. Means to say, Jesus became the Son of God at the resurrection but Jesus also spoke of himself as the Son of God before this. Are there multiple senses of being the Son of God?

Right, God is called Father for a reason. And it’s not because He is the first person of a Trinity. He called Father because He has children. When believers enter covenant with God through Christ, they becomes sons of God by promise of inheritance. When they are raised from the dead by God’s Spirit, they become sons forever.
Jesus is the example.
We are now sons of God, but it does not yet appear what will shall be, but when he appears we shall be like him.
The difference is the nature(physis). The first nature is mortal, the second nature is immortal.

 

[GodsGrace]

2Co 13:4 - For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Rom 1:4 - And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spiritof holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 6:5 - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

2Pe 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: thatby these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptionthat is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear whatwe shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for weshall see him as he is.

1Co 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Jesus was to be called son of God when he was born of Mary. He was fully man, as all the rest. That was his only nature. He was crucified in weakness of the flesh.

He was then declared son of God with power by resurrection from the dead to die no more.

He first shared the human nature as all. He now shares the never dying divine nature as His God and Father.

And just like him, we are sons of God in weakness of the mortal flesh, but just like him, we will share the divine nature when we, like him, are raised from the dead.
The verses I posted, and there are many more, which confirm this truth, are clear to anyone who can read and comprehend.

I don't see anywhere in the above verses that states that Jesus was BORN A MAN
and then BECAME DIVINE.

If you could dwindle it down to one or two verses that say SPECIFICALLY what you have posted, it would be appreciated.

A HUMAN does not BECOME DIVINE.
When Jesus was born He was ALREADY the SON of God.
He already existed before He was born - which would be God made flesh.

John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh,

But WHO is the Word?

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Now....through WHOM were all things created?

Colossians 1:15-16
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, [both] in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.


John 1:14
John 1:1
Colossians 1:15-16
ALL POINT TO JESUS.
ALL SPEAK OF JESUS.

Easy.

Jesus existed from the beginning.
Only God existed from the beginning.
God became flesh.
The same God that created everything.

Jesus = God

 

[Free]

Jesus rejected their false accusation and gave a thorough answer including the fact that the Judges were called "gods" or Elohim because they spoke and administered the word of God.

Where, exactly, does Jesus reject "their false accusation"? What, exactly, is the "false accusation"?

Notice the flow of the argument:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
Joh 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Joh 10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” (ESV)

So, on the contrary, Jesus affirms what they said. Jesus's argument is that if even the Judges were called "gods," being humans with God's divine authority to speak and act on his behalf, how much more is he actually God because he is the Son of God.

Jesus is the human Son of God because God the Father is his father in the begettal/birth process.
Luke 1:34–35 (AV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And, yet, multiple times Jesus claims to have preexisted, even prior to all creation, which is then repeated multiple times by NT writers.

Jesus was of human nature, the same as us:
Hebrews 2:14 (AV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Of course, that is fully affirmed by Trinitarianism. It is worth pointing out here that your three points don't actually address my argument, which was:

'So, when God uses the terms "Father" and "Son," we know what that entails. We know that it is impossible for a son to be of a different nature than his father. Human fathers always have human sons; it simply cannot be otherwise. Therefore, when Jesus calls himself the Son of God or claims that God is his Father, it communicates to us that they are of the same nature.'

You, however, are saying that the Son is of a different nature than the Father. That, as I said, makes that relationship meaningless to us. We cannot understand what that relationship is. Remember, we are the analogues to God, not the other way around. It isn't like the NT writers decided to create the relationship of Father and Son; God revealed himself to us using that relationship for a reason.

He is also the Son of God because by the time of his ministry he fully revealed the character of God. This was achieved through his special birth and his special education.
John 1:14 (AV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

This completely ignores the entire context of John 1:1-18, the whole point of which is to introduce us to the Son of God. Even just four verses prior:

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. (ESV)

Who is "He" and "him"? Clearly Jesus, or better, the Son. When was the world made through him? In verse 3:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

The logic of verse is that if "without him was not any thing made that was made," then it precludes "him" from being something that was made. That is the only logical conclusion. And, if he isn't made, then it necessarily follows that he is God in nature. Again, that is the only logical conclusion. All of that is supported or used to support what was already stated in verses 1 and 2.

I suggest that Jesus is alluding to Abraham's statement based upon the sacrifice of Isaac:
Genesis 22:14 (AV): And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

You can suggest that, but there are numerous suggestions that could be given.

The Pharisees deliberately muddied the waters. You are looking at the muddied waters and prefer to leave it as obscure, rather than understanding what Jesus is saying.

Because there is no certain understanding of when "Abraham rejoiced" and what "my day" refers to. But, as I stated, it is not relevant to the question from the Jews that follows and Jesus's answer. I would rather stick to those things that are clear and we can know, than speculate as to what something means and base the meaning of a text on that.

Jesus is greater than Abraham because he is the Messiah.

Again, Jesus's answer is directed at the question the Jews asked, which is one of chronology and existence. Jesus contrasts Abraham's coming into existence--"was" is ginomai--with his own eternal, absolute existence.

 

[Fish153]

As I said RM
You'll have to come to terms about Jesus being God in your own time.

One thing to always remember is that many thought Jesus was "this" and Jesus was "that" (see Matt. 16:14 directly below):

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
V. 14: They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven". (Matt. 16:13-17)

But Simon answers correctly: "You are the Messiah, the SON of the LIVING GOD". It was through the Father's revelation that Peter came to see that Jesus was God.

Nathanael realized Jesus was God through special revelation also:

“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” (John 1: 48-49)

Nathanael needed special revelation to see that Jesus is God. He says "You are the Son of God; you are the KING of Israel. Who is the KING OF ISRAEL? "Thus saith the LORD, the KING OF ISRAEL, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". (Is. 44:6).
Nathanael cleary realized Jesus is GOD.

Thomas also needed special revelation:
"Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:27,28)
Thomas realized Jesus is GOD after Jesus showed him who He was.

All three of these apostles, Peter, Thomas and Nathanael say that JESUS IS GOD. It's interesting that all (3) of them are on the boat in John 21, along with James and John and two un-named disciples. See John 21:1-3.

What RM and some others on this board need is the touch and revelation of the Spirit of God to see that Jesus is indeed GOD. We do not come to this conclusion through human wisdom or understanding. We come to this knowledge when the Spirit reveals it clearly to us through His Holy Word. So we need to pray for those on this board who are trying to understand Spiritual things with the Natural mind. May God reveal the truth to them through His Spirit. Amen.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JLB and Greetings again Walter and Debbie,

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD is the Son of God?

No, I believe that The Angel of Yahweh is The Angel that appeared to Moses and spoke and acted on behalf of Yahweh. The language and appearance seems difficult at first, but there are many other similar examples. Consider when Isaiah speaks or preaches as if he is Jesus, speaking the words and thoughts of Jesus in the second and third Servant Songs.

What is your belief? We believe that Jesus Christ Is The Messiah, The Son Of The Living GOD, and our Saviour

Yes, Jesus is the Son of The Living God and our Saviour Matthew 1:20-21, and therefore he is not God the Son, or the One God, Yahweh. There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection and is now seated at the right hand of the One God, His Father in God the Father's Throne.

Most importantly we believe also of what Jesus says in John 4:24 KJV, Ecclesiastes 12: 13, 14 KJV

Yes, I believe these verses and all Scripture is important and a true understanding and balance is required.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings JLB and Greetings again Walter,

No, I believe that The Angel of Yahweh is The Angel that appeared to Moses and spoke and acted on behalf of Yahweh. The language and appearance seems difficult at first, but there are many other similar examples. Consider when Isaiah speaks or preaches as if he is Jesus, speaking the words and thoughts of Jesus in the second and third Servant Songs.

Yes, Jesus is the Son of The Living God and our Saviour Matthew 1:20-21, and therefore he is not God the Son, or the One God, Yahweh. There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection and is now seated at the right hand of the One God, His Father in God the Father's Throne.

Yes, I believe these verses and all Scripture is important and a true understanding and balance is required.

Kind regards
Trevor

Consider also that Jesus said Elijah, speaking of John, had already come.
Huh?
Jesus spoke of John as Elijah because John had come in the spirit of Elijah.

Luk 1:17 - “He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Where, exactly, does Jesus reject "their false accusation"? What, exactly, is the "false accusation"?
Notice the flow of the argument:
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

Perhaps we should start earlier and take more notice first of what Jesus states before we concentrate on their "false accusation". They were not really interested in what Jesus states, but only interested in trying to twist his words and discredit him in the sight of the common people. Trinitarians also usually only quote John 10:30 and then put much weight on the Pharisees' assessment and agree with their accusation as above, except Trinitarians accept that Jesus is God and therefore such a statement as this is not blasphemy in a Trinitarian view.

John 10:22–29 (KJV): 22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

The question raised is whether or not Jesus is the Christ, and Jesus claims that they have had adequate proof, but did not accept the evidence that he had presented. There are two statements in this passage that speak against the Trinitarian view. The works that Jesus performed were done in his Father's name, not his own, therefore Jesus is not God. Jesus also claims that the sheep who were under his care were a gift from God his Father and that the Father is greater than all, and this includes himself. Therefore the Trinity is not true and Jesus is not God. The central ideas from this portion of Scripture is that Jesus claims to be the Christ, and that God's work on this earth and the gathering of God's sheep is achieved in and through Jesus, and not because Jesus is Deity.

Now it is the next verse that Trinitarians like to normally quote and put much emphasis.
John 10:30 (KJV): I and my Father are one.
Trinitarians like to suggest that this teaches that Jesus and his Father are the one God, one Being, but Jesus states the same thing in other words in his conclusion telling us that he is united with the One God, his Father and as such he is the Son of God.
John 10:36–38 (KJV): 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Verse 36 interprets John 10:30 showing that Jesus is the Son of the One God, the Father and as such Jesus is not God the Son.

Also verses 37 and 38 lead us into similar words spoken by Jesus, and the following also explain the language of verse 30:
John 17:11,20–23 (KJV): 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Now coming to the start of your quotation:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The question now arises on the basis of what I have already quoted and explained, was Jesus in John 10:30 "being a man, make yourself God". I suggest obviously not, that this is a false accusation, and Trinitarians agree with their false assessment.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Notice here that Jesus is not saying "Yes, you are right, I am God", but he answers their false accusation by giving the example of the position, status and title of the Judges who represented God and acted and spoke on his behalf.

Jesus also answers their false accusation by drawing attention again to his own role and position, derived from God:

Joh 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Joh 10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” (ESV)

I consider the above sufficient to expound the true meaning of John 10:30-36.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

One thing to always remember is that many thought Jesus was "this" and Jesus was "that" (see Matt. 16:14 directly below):

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
V. 14: They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven". (Matt. 16:13-17)

But Simon answers correctly: "You are the Messiah, the SON of the LIVING GOD". It was through the Father's revelation that Peter came to see that Jesus was God.

Nathanael realized Jesus was God through special revelation also:

“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” (John 1: 48-49)

Nathanael needed special revelation to see that Jesus is God. He says "You are the Son of God; you are the KING of Israel. Who is the KING OF ISRAEL? "Thus saith the LORD, the KING OF ISRAEL, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". (Is. 44:6).
Nathanael cleary realized Jesus is GOD.

Thomas also needed special revelation:
"Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:27,28)
Thomas realized Jesus is GOD after Jesus showed him who He was.

All three of these apostles, Peter, Thomas and Nathanael say that JESUS IS GOD. It's interesting that all (3) of them are on the boat in John 21, along with James and John and two un-named disciples. See John 21:1-3.

What RM and some others on this board need is the touch and revelation of the Spirit of God to see that Jesus is indeed GOD. We do not come to this conclusion through human wisdom or understanding. We come to this knowledge when the Spirit reveals it clearly to us through His Holy Word. So we need to pray for those on this board who are trying to understand Spiritual things with the Natural mind. May God reveal the truth to them through His Spirit. Amen.

Great post Fish!
I agree totally.
Welcome to the Forum.