The identity of the antichrist in 5 verses

[Jim Parker]

Well, just my personal opinion but as knowone coukd hold the law I also believe knowone can love God with all there heart and equally there neighbour. Knowone can live up to Jesus or the fathers standards.

I do not believe in a perfect righteous christian, not one. Many do good works but every mind struggles at times.

That's another topic. Jesus didn't say "good works of the Law"; He said "good works."
He says exactly what He was talking about at Matthew 25:31-46.
When you see the words "good works", think: "acts of mercy" not: "keep the Law of Moses."

iakov the fool

 

[Corn Pop]

That's another topic. Jesus didn't say "good works of the Law"; He said "good works."
He says exactly what He was talking about at Matthew 25:31-46.
When you see the words "good works", think: "acts of mercy" not: "keep the Law of Moses."

iakov the fool

What is good works?. Can you give an example of how to have eternal life by these good works as a beliver in Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

What is good works?. Can you give an example of how to have eternal life by these good works as a beliver in Christ.

Yes: Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Sinthesis]

Christ was crucified to pay for our sins.

A sinner does not incur a debt for his sin which has to be "paid back" to someone.
Sin creates a disconnect.

So Jesus didn't "pay" for our sin; He destroyed the power of the consequence of sin, which is death, to keep anyone in the grave. Jesus didn't "pay" the enemy of our souls to set us free; He destroyed our enemy's power to imprison us and set us free from death, hell and the grave.

There was a 'cost' associated with our rescue that had to be borne by God because our means are insufficient. To overcome death, hell, and the grave Jesus first subjected Himself to them; a condescension God accepted out of love for us. Payment is not made to anyone, rather Grace is freely given such that God does not insist on everything due Him.

Mat 20:27 - And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 - Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A sinner does not incur a debt for his sin which has to be "paid back" to someone.
Sin creates a disconnect.

That's not what Paul says:
"13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." (Colossians 2:13-14 NASB)

 

[smaller]

It's not a story line.

Yeah, it is. If we factor in the fact of Jesus as stated in Mark 4:15 then the "story" changes to a real story and it's not about Eve only. It's about Eve and Satan who entered her heart.

This is how we should picture Adam from the narrative if we picture him accurately:

Adam: [Adam, the natural flesh man and Satan, the tempter in his heart]

This is the identical fact that Jesus taught Paul in Acts 26:18 and that Paul taught in many places, but most easily seen in 2 Cor. 4:4.

There is no free standing individual. There is the person and there is their "internal temptations and lusts" via the tempter.

The parties must be viewed together, but they are not the same.

Mark 4:15 is about what happens when a variety of people, who are already sinners, hear the Gospel. It's not about what happens to innocent (child-like) people, who have only known God, hear a lie for the first time.

IF we see that all have sin (all do) and that all are sinners (all are) and that sin is in fact of the devil, 1 John 3:8, then the scriptural math is in harmony.

There is no natural man that can see this reality because they are blinded to it by the other party.

 

[reba]

Here is a surprise guys...there are some snarks a page or so back... 2

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Jim Parker]

There was a 'cost' associated with our rescue that had to be borne by God because our means are insufficient. To overcome death, hell, and the grave Jesus first subjected Himself to them; a condescension God accepted out of love for us. Payment is not made to anyone, rather Grace is freely given such that God does not insist on everything due Him.

The concept of sin creating a debt to God is, IMO, the use of a metaphor. Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection was not a quid pro quo transaction which paid off a literal debt that mankind had incurred through sin. It was the destruction of the power of death to destroy God's purpose that mankind would have eternal life (soul and body) in intimate relationship with Him. It is not that only Jesus could pay the debt incurred but rather, that only God the Word who became man could destroy death's power over sinful man and set free those who were "imprisoned" in Hades because of their sins. Therefore the scripture says "Death is swallowed up in Victory."

1Co 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's my view, anyway.

iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The concept of sin creating a debt to God is, IMO, the use of a metaphor.

The debt we incur by sinning against God is death. The law is our written debt that explains what we owe God for our sin ("for all have sinned"). It has to be paid in full by us one day. The good news is you can have that debt cleansed away by the blood of Jesus before the Day of Reckoning arrives.

When we believe in the forgiveness of God through Christ the written debt of death we owe God gets nailed to the cross and marked 'Paid in Full' by the death Christ suffered on our behalf.

If you don't feel like singing right now there's something wrong with you.

 

[turnorburn]

The concept of sin creating a debt to God is, IMO, the use of a metaphor. Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection was not a quid pro quo transaction which paid off a literal debt that mankind had incurred through sin. It was the destruction of the power of death to destroy God's purpose that mankind would have eternal life (soul and body) in intimate relationship with Him. It is not that only Jesus could pay the debt incurred but rather, that only God the Word who became man could destroy death's power over sinful man and set free those who were "imprisoned" in Hades because of their sins. Therefore the scripture says "Death is swallowed up in Victory."

1Co 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's my view, anyway.

iakov the fool

That view doesn't put much value on the human soul then does it?

Redemption: the act of purchasing back something previously sold

 

[Jim Parker]

That's not what Paul says:
"13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." (Colossians 2:13-14 NASB)

And what were those decrees of the "certificate of debt" which were canceled?
First, what is the context of the two verses you have selected?
It is found at verse 8: Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Paul then describes the believer's position in relation to God. Col 2:9-14 (NKJV)
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and
(1) you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
(2) In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism,
in which (3) you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
(4) He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
(5) having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
And what was the "handwriting of requirements" ("decrees against us" NASB)?
Is that not the Law which established what is sin?
Rom 4:15b "where there is no law there is no transgression." (NKJV)

And having been delivered from the decree of the Law, what conclusion did Paul make?
Col 2:16-23 (NKJV) So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

The use of the language of debt is a metaphor for the requirements of the Law and the penalty for failure to keep the law. Paul was stating that it was the decrees of the Law (the certificate of debt) which had been nailed to the cross and he was assuring the Colossian church that the dictates of the Law with regard to Sabbaths and feasts and food restrictions, etc. were of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

And that's how I see it.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

There is no free standing individual. There is the person and there is their "internal temptations and lusts" via the tempter.

You are describing mankind AFTER the fall. Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve did not have a conflict with the lusts of the flesh because they had no such demands of the flesh with which to be in conflict.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

The debt we incur by sinning against God is death. The law is our written debt that explains what we owe God for our sin ("for all have sinned"). It has to be paid in full by us one day.

I understand the concept. It is popular in western Christianity. I consider the concept a metaphor.
Scripture says that the WAGES of sin is death. It does not say the "debt incurred by sin" is death. "Wages" are not a debt; they are what you earn by sinning.
Man's salvation from death was not a legal transaction. (Another generally accepted concept of western Christianity most clearly articulated by Anselm of Canterbury in his tract, "Cur Deus Homo") The work of Christ which secured mankind's salvation was a unilateral act of love by God for mankind who is incapable of extricating himself from the result of sin which is death. God was under no compunction of necessity to rescue mankind from their plight. He did so because He loves mankind.

That's my understanding.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

That view doesn't put much value on the human soul then does it?

I have no idea how you would come to that conclusion. A human being is a unity of both body and soul. The soul is already immortal and incorruptible. The body was not so until Christ's resurrection. Now, because of Christ's resurrection, "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1Co 15:53 NKJV)

iakov the fool

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you for those wonderful examples of widespread religious bigotry and hatred for your fellow members of the Body of Christ that is included in the doctrines of so many of churches and has replaced Jesus' command to love on another. I'm sure you have pleased all of God's enemies by that very well documented declaration of your reformed Protestant belief that hatred of fellow believers in Jesus Christ (and, thereby, of Jesus himself) is a basic Christian teaching.

Nice going.

Mr. Parker, these are great men of Christ preaching what they believe.
Should we ignore what they say because you personally find them offending?

 

[Jim Parker]

Mr. Parker, these are great men of Christ preaching what they believe.
Should we ignore what they say because you personally find them offending?

No, Mr. Tamasi, we should not ignore them but we should refute religious bigotry and the propagation of hatred for one another among Christians no matter who teaches it. IMHO

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

You are describing mankind AFTER the fall.

The so called "fall" transpired immediately after the Word was sown to Adam, just as Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15.

From that point on it is as previously noted. Adam can no longer be seen as "alone" in the flesh.

Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve did not have a conflict with the lusts of the flesh because they had no such demands of the flesh with which to be in conflict.

It went down just as Jesus sez. It was never an observation of "just them" as individuals.

Mark 4:15 did happen. Neither of them were exceptions.

Paul elaborates on these matters at length, particularly in 1 Cor. 15:42-49. God fully intended his son, Adam (Luke 3:38), to be planted into natural (dust/earth/clay) flesh "inherent" with dishonor, corruption, weakness, the spirit of disobedience and eventually death.

That condition sez we're not alone in the flesh. We have a built in instrument of death termed the spirit of disobedience, aka the tempter (and his minions) aka the anti-Christ spirit.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, Mr. Tamasi, we should not ignore them but we should refute religious bigotry and the propagation of hatred for one another among Christians no matter who teaches it. IMHO

iakov the fool

Again, that is a matter of opinion as to who is the religious bigot and who propagates the hatred.

 

[Jim Parker]

The so called "fall" transpired immediately after the Word was sown to Adam, just as Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15. From that point on it is as previously noted. Adam can no longer be seen as "alone" in the flesh.

Again, Mark is written long after the fall. There is nothing in scripture that suggests that Adam and Eve had "satan in their hearts" before the fall. That is your imagination.

 

[Jim Parker]

Again, that is a matter of opinion as to who is the religious bigot and who propagates the hatred.

Whatever excuse you think will work for you on judgement day. Good luck with that one.