Bible Study The Identity of the Pre-Incarnate Messiah

[R7-12]

Hello everyone,

This thread will be a study concerning the identity of the Messiah before he was born of Miriam. We will begin by examining a title or name with which Jesus Christ identified himself – Morning Star, and explore the scriptures for further understanding, as it is written.

We will then move on to other names and titles associated with God’s creation and specifically with the being called, “The Angel of YHVH†or “The Angel of God†to determine its relationship with the word of God.

Morning Star

Revelation 22:16 from the NKJV,
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel(s) to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.â€Â

For the sake of this study, we will begin with and focus on the second part of Rev. 22:16, where we find Jesus Christ declare of himself,
“I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.â€Â

The Messiah identified himself as the Bright and Morning Star. Whatever it means we must accept that he is the Bright and Morning Star. There can be no debate that he identified himself as such.

The obvious questions that follow on from here include,

1). What is a Morning Star?

2). Are there Morning Stars other than Messiah?

3). Will others become Morning Stars?

The Bible will be shown to provide clear answers to each of these questions. Who is willing to listen and hear, and see and understand?

Productive and edifying comments are welcome.

R7-12

 

[gingercat]

I am willing to learn and listen. Please keep going. Thank you.

 

[stovebolts]

Sounds good. I'd like to see the answers to the questions you pose.

Jeff

 

[MrVersatile48]

Jesus did warn of false christs/messiahs, etc, in Matt 24 etc

Lucifer translates as 'son of the morning' - as Paul put it, 'the devil presents himself as an angel of light..so do his servants'

 

[John the Baptist]

Sure, but when was this Jesus/Son Eternal Plan to be the 'root and the offspring' of David? It it clear that the verse is looking at the future fulfillment of the time of Hebrews 1:1-5 time/frame. When Christ was to become the Christ/God of Psalms 2:7 or Acts 13:29-32.

But, we will see what your thinking is, huh? Maybe? :wink:

---John

 

[stovebolts]

Give it a break Mr. V....

1). What is a Morning Star?

2). Are there Morning Stars other than Messiah?

3). Will others become Morning Stars?


That's the study and your not the teacher. Why don't you sit back and hear what R7 has to say. :evil:

Man, you guys gotta chill, this isn't apologetics :smt014

 

[John the Baptist]

Give it a break Mr. V....

1). What is a Morning Star?

2). Are there Morning Stars other than Messiah?

3). Will others become Morning Stars?


That's the study and your not the teacher. Why don't you sit back and hear what R7 has to say. :evil:

Man, you guys gotta chill, this isn't apologetics :smt014

-------
Jesus did warn of false christs/messiahs, etc, in Matt 24 etc

Lucifer translates as 'son of the morning' - as Paul put it, 'the devil presents himself as an angel of light..so do his servants'

__

What is wrong with these questions??? And you guy's means what??

And 'you are not the teacher' reply to Mr. V??? And you gotta chill out??

'Productive and edifying comments are welcome' was in the posting. Perhaps we might see the postman ( :wink: ) tell us who he might want to censor out, if that be the case?

One day soon we will not need to think that we can read the mind of any posters.
---John

 

[gingercat]

Thank you Stove for your open mindedness. God bless you.

 

[R7-12]

Thank you everyone for your comments and respectful attitude toward this very important topic.

John,
I would like to ask you to assist me in making sure this thread stays on track and to kindly remind everyone who wishes to argue or distract or sidetrack us, that this is not the point of this study. Thank you in advance.

From the responses so far, no one has disagreed that Jesus Christ identified himself as a Morning Star. I'm glad we are all in agreement on this, as it is our starting point which must be established on a firm foundation before we continue.

Any objections to this point?

R7-12

 

[gingercat]

no :D

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Thank you everyone for your comments and respectful attitude toward this very important topic.

John,
I would like to ask you to assist me in making sure this thread stays on track and to kindly remind everyone who wishes to argue or distract or sidetrack us, that this is not the point of this study. Thank you in advance.

From the responses so far, no one has disagreed that Jesus Christ identified himself as a Morning Star. I'm glad we are all in agreement on this, as it is our starting point which must be established on a firm foundation before we continue.

Any objections to this point?

R7-12

We await with breathless anticipation :P

 

[R7-12]

Hi all,

I will try to keep posting on this thread as soon and as often as I am able. I am currently responding to multiple threads so I'm feeling like I'm spread a little thin at the moment. :o

Please be patient with me I will respond as time permits.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Let’s continue by examining the key words in the term Morning Star to gain a more accurate and in-depth understanding of what this term encompasses.

Morning

3720 orthrinos, from 3722;; adj

1) early

- 3722 orthros (from the same as 3735;; n m)

1) daybreak, dawn
2) at early dawn, at daybreak, early in the morning

- 3735 oros

probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or “rearâ€Â, perhaps akin to 142, cf 3733); TDNT - 5:475,732; n n

1) a mountain

From Greek we can see that the term “Morning†includes the understanding of “early morning daybreak as at a mountain†(God) or “the day dawning at or from the mountainâ€Â

Oros is found 65 times in the Greek Scriptures but translated “mountain†in English between 28 and 43 times.


Star

SGD 792 aster

1) a star (from: 4799)

- 4799 stronnumi

prolongation from a still simpler stroo (used only as an alternate in certain tenses, probably akin to 4731 through the idea of positing);; v

1) to spread
2) furnish
3) to spread with couches or divans

- 4731 stereos (from 2476)

1) strong, firm, immovable, solid, hard, rigid
1b) in a good sense, firm, steadfast

- 2476 histemi

a prolonged form of a primary stao (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);

1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
1b31) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
1c) to set or place in a balance
2) to stand
2a) to stand by or near


When placed together, the meanings of “Morning†and “Star†are more fully developed:

Morning:
The early light of day shining from the mountain

Star:
Provider, firm and steadfast, immovable, making stand and keeping intact with authority, and standing by.

From this we can glean the correct understanding of the position and role and responsibility of those with the title, Morning Star: Provider, in a steadfast manner with authority, and making stand, the early light of day shining from the mountain, standing by it, keeping the light intact.

The Light is Almighty God (1 John 1:5, Rev. 22:5). The Light of God is life and this life was given to His son Jesus Christ (John 5:26). This life is the light of men (John 1:4). Jesus Christ reflects that light as the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). Christ reflects the light of God and thereby is the light of this world (John 8:12). Christ proclaimed the light of God and thus is the word or spokesman or logos of Almighty God and is also an elohim or theos (John 1:1).

The fact that God is light and Christ reflects that light as a Morning Star shows that One is God – the Father, and Christ is a subordinate elohim and a bene elohim or son of God.

This also reveals the significance in the word of God found in Isaiah 8:20,

“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.â€Â

So we have come to identify some of the responsibilities, and have a better understanding of the role that is part of the title or rank of, Morning Star. Now we will look for additional texts to provide further understanding of the title with which Jesus Christ identified himself.

There is lots more to come…

R7-12

 

[stovebolts]

R7

I like the way that came together and the direction that it forms.

Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your next post in this study.

 

[R7-12]

Hi everybody,

Previously we examined the rank of Morning Star held by Jesus Christ in Revelation 22:16. I now want to examine another text that speaks of Christ using similar terms.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Morning Star rises in your hearts (2 Peter 1:19, NKJV).

In the KJV it is rendered,
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

NASB,
And so we have the prophetic word more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

BBE,
And so the words of the prophets are made more certain; and it is well for you to give attention to them as to a light shining in a dark place, till the dawn comes and the morning star is seen in your hearts

LITV,
and we have the more established prophetic Word, in which you do well to take heed, as to a lamp shining in a murky place, until day dawns and the Light-bearing One rises in your hearts

NIV,
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Can anyone other than Christ shine or be seen in our hearts? No. Will anyone other than Messiah arise as a Morning or Day Star in our hearts? No.

Consider the entire sequence where this text is found.

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.†18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts (2 Peter 1:16-19).

Let's examine some of the key words.

Day

SGD 2250 hemera

1) the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
1a) in the daytime
2) of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)
3) of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom

Dawn

SGD 1306 diaugazo

from 1223 and 826;; v

1) to shine through, to dawn
1a) of daylight breaking through the darkness of night

The words, Day and Dawn(s) are accurate translations of the Greek words hemera and diaugazo. Together they carry the basic meaning, “day dawns†or “the day shines through.â€Â

However, notice also the prophetic implications associated with these words especially the third definition of 2250 hemera, “the last day of this present age.†This is a direct reference to the return of Christ and the first resurrection when the dead in Christ will be raised and along with those who are still alive and in Christ, will be changed or translated or BORN into spiritbeings as true sons of God – when Christ RISES in our hearts as the Morning Star! When mortal puts on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:54) and we become firstfruits of God (1 Corinthians 15:20; James 1:18; Revelation 14:4, cf. John 3:6-8).

Day Star comes from the word phosphorus which is a recognizable derivative of several English words.

Day Star

SGD 5459 phosphoros (from 5457 and 5342);

1) light bringing, giving light
2) the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
3) metaph. Christ

- 5457 phos

from an obsolete phao (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays, cf 5316, 5346);

1) light
1a) the light
1a1) emitted by a lamp
1b) anything emitting light
1b1) a star
1b2) fire because it is light and sheds light
1b3) a lamp or torch
1c) light, i.e brightness

- 5342 phero

1) to carry
1a) to carry some burden
1a1) to bear with one’s self
1b) to move by bearing; move or, to be conveyed or borne, with the suggestion of force or speed
1b1) of persons borne in a ship over the sea
1c) to bear up i.e. uphold (keep from falling)

Phos and phero carry the meaning of “light bearer.â€Â

Arise(s)

393 anatello (from 303 and the base of 5056);

1) rise
1a) to cause to rise
1a1) of the earth bring forth plants
1b) to rise, arise, to rise from, be descended from
1b1) of sun moon and stars)

This word (393 anatello) is also found in Hebrews 7:14; Matthew 5:45 & Matthew 4:16. These texts are also revealing when the usage of anatello is taken into consideration.

- 303 ana

a primary prep and adv;; prep

1) into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among, between

- 5056 telos (from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);

properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely]

result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid).
Compare 5411.

- 5411 phoros

(from 5342; a load (as borne), that is, (figuratively) a tax (properly an individual assessment on persons or property): - tribute.

- 5342 phero

A primary verb (for which other and apparently not cognate ones are used in certain tenses only; namely to “bear†or carry (in a very wide application, literally and figuratively: - be, bear, bring (forth), carry, come, + let her drive, be driven, endure, go on, lay, lead, move, reach, rushing, uphold.

We have much to consider here for the word rendered “arise(s).†It carries the meaning, “to rise into the midst becoming the point or goal aimed at, bearing a load such as a tribute or tax.â€Â

Truly incredible revelations within these words! Christ rises as the Light Bearer in our midst as the goal or purpose of God, carrying the burden or load of our sins upon him – precisely what the census tax of the Day Atonement pictured – our paid debts borne in himself! (Exodus 30:11-16). The half-shekel was the atonement price of every Israelite 20 (age of adulthood) and older regardless of one’s wealth. Rich or poor everyone had to pay the same amount. The set fee pictures the sacrifice of Christ as an equal offering for everyone and indicates that salvation is paid for, not according to the physical circumstance of the individual, but, by the sacrifice of Christ once and for all.

The Day Star or Morning Star thus carried the function of Light-Bearer who is to fulfill the goal aimed at (a sacrifice) which provides redemption (to redeem or pay) from the penalty of death, thereby making everlasting life possible. This is realized on the day of Christ’s return when he will rise in the hearts of all who overcome and keep the logos of God. Then the elect will be given the Morning Star by God through Messiah.

“And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations 27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’ as I also have received from My Father; 28 “and I will give him the morning star. 29“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.†’ (Rev. 2:26-29).

The word rendered Morning in the text above is a variation of the word used in Rev. 22:16 (3720 orthrinos).

Morning

SGD 4407 proinos

from 4404;; adj

1) pertaining to the morning

- 4404 proi

1) in the morning, early
2) the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o’clock in the morning until 6 o’clock approximately

- 4253 pro

1) before


The word Star in this text is the same as Rev. 22:16,

Star

SGD 792 aster

1) a star

From: 4799 stronnumi

prolongation from a still simpler stroo (used only as an alternate in certain tenses, probably akin to 4731 through the idea of positing);; v

1) to spread
2) furnish
3) to spread with couches or divans

We see here the same concepts related to the Morning or Day Star as examined above, therefore confirming what has thus far been revealed in the written word of God.

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6).

More to come...

R7-12

 

[Quasar]

The Scriptural 'Autobiography' of the pre-incarnated Jesus

Quote by R7-12:

>>>Hello everyone,

This thread will be a study concerning the identity of the Messiah before he was born of Miriam. We will begin by examining a title or name with which Jesus Christ identified himself – Morning Star, and explore the scriptures for further understanding, as it is written.

We will then move on to other names and titles associated with God’s creation and specifically with the being called, “The Angel of YHVH†or “The Angel of God†to determine its relationship with the word of God.<<<


This is not an easy question to provide that people are willing to accept because of the false doctrine that has permeated the church over the past 1,600 years. From the RCC, through the Reformation, the Seminaries and into most all the mainstream Christian churches. Yet the facts come directly from the Word of God.


It is necessary to first properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as the Spirit. Secondly, God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44, and is therefore obviously the HOLY SPIRIT.

In the third place, the fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles I will not further enumerate, as they are all quite well known to you all.

In the fourth place, God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in another place, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isa.44:6. See also Ex.3:14, "I AM WHO I AM."

In the fifth place, now that it can be clearly seen from the Word of God, that God - is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been stated, what about Jesus. Along with misconceptions of who the Holy Spirit is - the most important of all, is the description of Jesus.


Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV]. This is the 'autobiography of the pre-incarnated Jesus Christ, written by Solomon, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the same way David wrote Ps.22 about Jesus through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]. [Which is in complete harmony with both Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Jn.1:1;2].

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]


That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3


From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ.

In the KJV, another example of the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus being created comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESSED in both, means CREATED, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ.

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of His works, before the world began.


In the sixth place, when the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, when she conceived what became the incarnated Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7 and repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnated Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said, whover believes in him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives to those who do, and promises eternal life. Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. See also Jn.20:21-22 and 1 Jn.4:13.


At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], is YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., etc., etc., and is now also the Father! We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.


Point number seven brings us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, which many people fail to comprehend and understand - those remarks were all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with any kind of physical involvement. He said He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21. What Jesus meant in 17:21-22, that all we believers become one with He and the Father, as He and the Father are. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him, receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], becoming a born again person [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But it must be understood that we all retain our own physical, individual identities, personage, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Personages!

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28. An exact case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, where Satan enters into Judas, who is then controlled by [the spirit who is] Satan, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both He and Judas retained their own spirits and individuality.


Point eight is the fact that the apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the [Holy] Spirit.

The ninth point is the fact that the Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and in other places. Jesus ascended and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12 and in other places. For all those who participate in the first resurrection, they are to be priests of God and of Jesus. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23.

Point ten pertains to the literal description of God - in that Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would have undoubtedly said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, as was the case in the OT, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied, by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7 and in Isa.7:14. After they had been fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:8-9. It is also written that Jesus is the image of the living God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body that received an imperishable, immortal resurrection body [1 Cor.15:52-55], whose pre-incarnated Spirit was created.. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is:

ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST [GOD THE SON], THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.


Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, and with that having been established, The Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, also in the Bible. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 is a verse that was tampered with and added onto, and 1 Jn.5:7 which is an out and out fraudulant insert. As the Scriptures clearly reveal, God is the Holy Spirit as well as the Father and therefore, Jesus would never make such a remark.


In His love,

Quasar

 

[John the Baptist]

Here is anothers view of the thread subject:

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL ..... JESUS?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To begin, let's look at the phrase *angel of the LORD* in the story of Moses and the burning bush-

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Now note the following-

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

Acts 7:32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, *I am* he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, *I am* he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Jesus Christ again makes it clear He is the *I am*. Merely speaking the words made those present fall over. So the *angel of the Lord* and Jesus are identical to, and synonymous with, the *I am* that met Moses at the burning bush.


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Now look at the story of Hagar in Genesis-

Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

Gen 16:9 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen 16:10 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Hagar has been visited and spoken to by the *angel of the Lord*, but look who she says it was-

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Again the *angel of the Lord* is actually none other than the LORD Jesus Christ Himself. Now a little later in Genesis-

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Who would make a great nation of the lad? Surely not a mere angel, but actually Jesus Christ Himself.


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Now let's look at the story of Abraham and Isaac-

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God speaks to Abraham, giving him instructions to follow. Look who speaks to Abraham next-

Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16?


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Now on to Jacob-

Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Who does this messenger identify Himself as?-

Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

This vow of Jacob's is found in Gen 28-

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

So the *angel of God* of Gen 31:11 is again none other than the LORD God (Jesus Christ).


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Now to the Israelites in the wilderness-

Exo 14:19 And *the angel of God*, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Who went before them?-

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Again, the messenger or *angel of God* is the same as the LORD.


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Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam-

Num 22:20 And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do.

Then a transition from God to *angel of the LORD*-

Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the *angel of the LORD* stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The *angel of the LORD* is used many times in verses 23,24,25,26,31,32,34,35 and the LORD in verses 28,31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably. In each case it is again referring to the LORD Jesus Christ.


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Now in the book of Judges-

Judg 2:1 And an *angel of the LORD* came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

By now this should be easy. Just who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and made the covenant with Israel that He would never break - *an angel of the LORD* or Jesus Christ, GOD Himself? Yes, the answer is both, one and the same.

Now look who visits Gideon later in Judges-

Judg 6:11 And there came an *angel of the LORD*, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

Note what this messenger (angel) says-

Judg 6:12 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

THE LORD IS WITH THEE ... it was indeed Jesus with Gideon, note-

Judg 6:20 And the *angel of God* said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
Judg 6:21 Then the *angel of the LORD* put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the *angel of the LORD* departed out of his sight.
Judg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an *angel of the LORD*, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an *angel of the LORD* face to face.

Now look who (again) speaks-

Judg 6:23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

Gideon had been speaking with the LORD Jesus Christ all along.


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On to Judges 13-

Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

*Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13, and 15-18.
Note what Manoah asks in verse 17 and the answer in verse 18:

Judg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Judg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

The Hebrew word translated "secret" in the King James (H6383) also can mean "wonderful". Note that this is a title for Jesus:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.
Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

In the instances I have cited, the phrase *angel of the LORD* or *angel of God* actually meant Jesus Christ, who is the *chief messenger (angel) of the LORD (God the Father)*.


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Here is a further text to consider-

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The *Angel which redeemed me* from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Notice that Israel was talking about God and then transitioned to an angel-

God, --- before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk
God --- which fed me all my life long unto this day
The *Angel --- which redeemed me* from all evil
(*the Angel* that) --- bless the lads; and let my name be named on them
(*the Angel* that) --- let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth

This is referring back to Gen 28:13-15 and the Lord's promise to Jacob (Israel)-

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

So in Gen 48:16 Israel is speaking of God as a redeeming angel. Again, not angel the sense of a created being, but rather in the generic sense of the word, meaning messenger. What created angel could redeem anyone? None. Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, and that is exactly who Jacob (Israel) had been speaking with and about. Jesus was, and is, that redeeming angel (messenger) sent from God the Father. A similar passage referring to Jesus as a redeeming angel is in Isaiah:

Isa 63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.


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In Daniel, when the three Hebrew boys were cast into the fiery furnace for not bowing down to the golden statue, not three but four figures were seen in the furnace:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Now most Christians would agree that this was indeed Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who walked with them in the furnace, in a pre-incarnation appearance. Yet, verse 28, interestingly enough, describes the fourth figure as an angel:

Dan 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his *angel*, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.


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The Angel of the Covenant

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

The messenger of the covenant spoken of here in Malachi is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ, and His first and second coming. The word translated as messenger in Mal 3:1 is the same word [H4397, mal'ak] used in the previous passages of the old testament where we saw the phrase angel of the Lord. So this would also be a proper translation:

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

In fact, this is how the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible translates this verse:

CHAPTER 3.

Christ shall come to his temple, and purify the priesthood. They that continue in their evil ways shall be punished: but true penitents shall receive a blessing.

Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

* Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.

The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the *angel or messenger of the covenant*. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.

Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.

So now, what of Michael the archangel? Is it so difficult to believe that he may actually be Jesus Christ? Let's look at each instance he is mentioned in the Bible and see-

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #1

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the *archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Who raises the dead with His voice? Not a created angel, indeed not even a created archangel. The shout is given with the voice of the *archangel*, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is the voice of Jesus Christ (the Son of man) that raises the dead. Just as 1 Th 4:16 says, the Lord Jesus shall descend from heaven and shout with the voice of the Archangel, because He is the Archangel. With that shout, the righteous dead will be raised from their graves!

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #2

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old Testament event-

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also *Michael the archangel*, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #3

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, *Michael*, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

The prince of the kingdom of Persia is a reference to Satan, and Michael refers again to Jesus. It is the created angel Gabriel that is speaking with Daniel (See Dan 8:16, 9:21). The reference to Michael as one of the chief princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #4

Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Gabriel says that only he and Michael know certain truths which Gabriel will reveal to Daniel. Who could this Michael be but Jesus, God Himself, giving Gabriel the truths to reveal to Daniel?

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #5

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Michael standing up is a reference to the second coming of Jesus at the end of time.

Some might propose that, in these three preceding texts from Daniel, the description of Michael as a mere prince is inappropriate for Jesus, so it must be speaking of a created angel. Note the following verses:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #6

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ...

Who leads the angelic host of heaven, who is their captain?

Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice that Joshua worshipped the *captain of the Host*? If this were a mere angel, then the angel would have protested Joshua worshipping him, just as the angel protested John the Revelator worshipping him (Rev 22:8-9). So Joshua met with God (Jesus Christ) the *captain of the Host*. That is why he stood on holy ground and was asked to remove his shoes (just like Moses was asked in Exo 3:5 and Acts 7:33). Therefore, in Rev 12:7 you have Satan and his angels, and Jesus (Michael, the *captain of the Host*) and His angels - this was the war that began in heaven and continues today.

And what does the name Michael mean? It means *who (is) like God?* A very good question indeed - who is like Jesus?

As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.


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Church Fathers and Catholic Sources on Christophanies


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Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies book III, chapter 6:

2. Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all, who also said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM. And thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me unto you;" and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes those that believe in His name the sons of God. And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people." For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm



Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies book IV, chapter 10:

1. ... "For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;" [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103410.htm



ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA also says it was the Saviour who spoke from the burning bush:

"The Saviour has many tones of voice, and many methods for the salvation of men; by threatening He admonishes, by upbraiding He converts, by bewailing He pities, by the voice of song He cheers. He spake by the burning bush, for the men of that day needed signs and wonders."

See: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/020801.htm



THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN MARTYR.
Chapter LXIII.[63] - How God Appeared to Moses.

And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand."131 And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him."132 Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me."133 From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people."134 And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm



Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 113:

" ... I have proved that it was Jesus who appeared to and conversed with Moses, and Abraham, and all the other patriarchs without exception,..."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01284.htm



Entry on Angels, Catholic Encyclopedia online:

As an instance of how convinced some of the Fathers were in holding the opposite view, we may note Theodoret's words (In Exod.): "The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to him. But (Moses) called Him an angel in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw -- for whose angel could the Father be? -- but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of great Counsel" (cf. Eusebius, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7; St. Irenaeus, Haer., iii, 6).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm



Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Cæsarea in Palestine, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7

Chapter 2. Summary view of the pre-existence and divinity of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

... You will perceive also from the same words that this was no other than he [Jesus] who talked with Moses. For the Scripture says in the same words and with reference to the same one, "When the Lord saw that he drew near to see, the Lord called to him out of the bush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, What is it? And he said, Draw not nigh hither; loose thy shoe from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said unto him, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm



TERTULLIAN, AN ANSWER TO THE JEWS, (Adversus Iudaeos)

TRANSLATED BY THE REV. S. THELWALL.

CHAP. IX. -- OF THE PROPHECIES OF THE BIRTH AND ACHIEVEMENTS OF CHRIST

... For He who ever spake to Moses was the Son of God Himself; who, too, was always seen.169 For God the Father none ever saw, and lived.170 And accordingly it is agreed that the Son of God Himself spake to Moses, and said to the people, "Behold, I send mine angel before thy" - that is, the people's - "face, to guard thee on the march, and to introduce thee into the land which I have prepared thee: attend to him, and be not disobedient to him; for he hath not escaped171 thy notice, since my name is upon him."172 For Joshua was to introduce the people into the land of promise, not Moses. Now He called him an "angel," on account of the magnitude of the mighty deeds which he was to achieve (which mighty deeds Joshua the son of Nun did, and you yourselves read), and on account of his office of prophet announcing (to wit) the divine will; just as withal the Spirit, speaking in the person of the Father, calls the forerunner of Christ, John, a future "angel," through the prophet: "Behold, I send mine angel before Thy" - that is, Christ's - "face, who shall prepare Thy way before Thee."173 Nor is it a novel practice to the Holy Spirit to call those "angels" whom God has appointed as ministers of His power. For the same John is called not merely an "angel" of Christ, but withal a "lamp" shining before Christ: for David predicts, "I have prepared the lamp for my Christ;"174 and him Christ Himself, coming "to fulfil the prophets,"175 called so to the Jews. "He was," He says, "the burning and shining lamp;"176 as being he who not merely "prepared His ways in the desert,"177 but withal, by pointing out "the Lamb of God,"178 illumined the minds of men by his heralding, so that they understood Him to be that Lamb whom Moses was wont to announce as destined to suffer. Thus, too, (was the son of Nun called) Joshua, on account of the future mystery179 of his name: for that name (He who spake with Moses) confirmed as His own which Himself had conferred on him, because He had bidden him thenceforth be called, not "angel" nor "Oshea," but "Joshua." Thus, therefore, each name is appropriate to the Christ of God-that He should be called Jesus as well (as Christ).

169 Comp. Num. xii. 5-8.
170 Comp. Ex. xxxiii. 20; John i. 18, xiv. 9; Col. i. 15; Heb. i. 3.
171 Oehler and others read "celavit"; but the correction of Fr. Junius and Rig., "celabit," is certainly more agreeable to the LXX. and the Eng. ver.
172 Ex. xxiii. 20, 21.
173 Mal. iii. 1: comp. Matt. xi. 10; Mark i. 2; Luke vii. 27.
174 See Ps cxxxii. 17 (cxxi. 17 in LXX.).
175 Matt. v. 17, briefly; a very favourite reference with Tertullian.
176 John v. 35
177 Comp. reference 8, p. 232; and Isa. xl. 3, John i. 23.
178 See John i. 29, 36.
179 Sacramentum.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.html



New American Bible for Catholics, Exo 3:2 footnote:

2 [2] An angel of the LORD: the visual form under which God appeared and spoke to men is referred to indifferently [without distinction] in some Old Testament texts either as God's angel or as God himself. Cf Genesis 16:7, 13; Exodus 14:19, 24, 25; Numbers 22:22-35; Jdgs 6,11-18.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus3.htm


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http://biblelight.net

 

[Vic C.]

:o That was long, N.B. 8-)

You did bring up one point that caught my eye;

when we view the word "angel" as "messenger" in some verses, it brings on a clarity that can't be ignored. After all, the Bible describes dufferent angels.

I do not, however, believe the Jesus is Michael theory. Yes, Jesus was a "messenger" but HE was so much more than that also.

Sorry to interject... carry on. 8-)

 

[gingercat]

John,

Your post is almost as long as NT, it seems. I wonder how many are reading?

 

[John the Baptist]

John,

Your post is almost as long as NT, it seems. I wonder how many are reading?

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One 'sincere' person is enough! :fadein: And, I agree with him, that Christ was the messenger! And angel? no, He was the God messenger for His Godhead & also called the archangel! (The angels God Commander) But even all of this was pre/ordained! See Romans 4:17 for the Son of God that They even forknew in the Everlasting Gospel of Revelation 14:6 verification verse.

---John

PS: And by the way, I will need to slip an extra buck into the boss's offering plate for the well worth extra space, huh? :fadein: