The Insecurity of Calvinism

[adelphos]

Hi,

The reality is that if one studies the Calvinistic doctrinal system, one is left with a sense of complete and uttter insecurity - just the opposite of what they teach, at least from a very pragmatic and experiential point of reference. An objective thinking Calvinist will recognize what I say as true immediately. You see, even the most dedicated Calvinist cannot claim that they know for certain that they are one of the elect! If they do say so, they argue it from "experience," not absolute knowledge. They will claim that they have fruit, or the Spirit bears them witness, etc... which really makes it boild down to "their decision of what they believe to be true." In reality, using their own system, it would be absolutely presumptuous to make this claim. So, in essence, how can a Calvinist really, and actually know they are elect - oh no, it can't be through repentance and faith, and a resulting holy life, can it be?

Respectfully,

Adelphos​

 

[ivdavid]

The Insecurity of Calvinism.....You see, even the most dedicated Calvinist cannot claim that they know for certain that they are one of the elect!

Calvinism does not find security in being the elect as such where you mean this as some inherent status of man - but finds security in the continual working of God alone in man by His grace, mercy and love. Election is a revelation of God's nature and how He works, to deny the flesh any glory.

They will claim that they have fruit, or the Spirit bears them witness, etc... which really makes it boild down to "their decision of what they believe to be true."

How would you suggest one witness to the truth of Col 1:6 and Rom 8:16 without it really boiling down to "one's decision of what he believes to be true"?

how can a Calvinist really, and actually know they are elect..... it can't be through repentance and faith, and a resulting holy life, can it be?

Aren't repentance, faith and sanctification fruits of the Spirit - these do happen to be the evidence that one is under grace. The way you're presuming these to be excluded seems indicative of you holding some misconceptions.

 

[adelphos]

Calvinism does not find security in being the elect as such where you mean this as some inherent status of man - but finds security in the continual working of God alone in man by His grace, mercy and love. Election is a revelation of God's nature and how He works, to deny the flesh any glory.

So, are you suggesting that finding security in the continual working of God alone brings personal salvific security?

Are you suggesting, then, that one's salvation is secure by merely mentally ascribing to the revelation of God's nature and how He works while denying the flesh any glory brings personal salvific security?

May I suggest that if a Calvinist is secure by what you have shared, then my point is still valid - there is no personal security in the faith. I would consider this a shift brong Biblical faith to embracing of a mere Biblical hope. Thus no saving security!

How would you suggest one witness to the truth of Col 1:6 and Rom 8:16 without it really boiling down to "one's decision of what he believes to be true"?

Are you suggesting that you can trust your "senses" concerning the Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God?

Are you suggesting that you can trust your evaluation of your fruitfulness, and know that it is not self motivated deception?

It would seem to be that if one is using those two passages for security, one is forced to evaluate themselves which transfers the trust to one's own sense of what is true fruit or what is the Spirit's bearing witness? Thus, no saving security!

Aren't repentance, faith and sanctification fruits of the Spirit - these do happen to be the evidence that one is under grace. The way you're presuming these to be excluded seems indicative of you holding some misconceptions.

I may be holding some misconceptions, this is true. None the less, one who believes in Calvinism is forced to make a decision concerning whether they are truly in the faith, and this may be self deception. Afterall, man heart is extremely wicked and self deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9). Thus, no saving security!

To be a conisistent Calvinist, one either forced to make a decision about whether they are truly in the faith, or abandon all security, relying totally on the sovereignty of God and wait until judgement to find out if they are truly in the faith:

The heart is
deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

Respectfully,

Adelphos

 

[ivdavid]

So, are you suggesting that finding security in the continual working of God alone brings personal salvific security?

Absolutely. God's working alone in man.

May I suggest that if a Calvinist is secure by what you have shared, then my point is still valid - there is no personal security in the faith.

What I've stated above is faith in God - this is believing in Christ. Our resting on God's works alone to provide salvation - this is grace alone. And even such resting is not of our own effort but given of God by His grace. Faith in God's sufficiency is your security - for God cannot fail.

I would consider this a shift brong Biblical faith to embracing of a mere Biblical hope.

Mere Biblical hope? I wish you'd see how you've reduced Biblical truth to 'mere' man's level. The word "hope" is usually used to signify the expectation of an event to be fulfilled in the future - this is the common usage w.r.t. man. There is no certainty in the fulfillment of that future event at all. But when it comes to Biblical truths and assurances in God's promises - one's faith in God's ability to fulfill all that He promises, makes the very thing hoped for, absolutely certain. This is Hebrews 11:1 .

When I believe that there is nothing - absolutely nothing - I can do of myself to attain unto salvation - I rest completely on what Christ has done and does in me to save me. As long as I trust in Christ's works alone, I have complete security because of the assurance that whatever He has promised, He will do. This is the Law of faith - whoever throws himself upon Christ alone to work out his salvation, such shall not be ashamed. This hope of salvation is secured in the faith of Christ's sufficiency and His alone ( reiterating Heb 11:1).

Are you saying that one cannot rest on the continual work of God to result in an absolutely certain, successful fulfillment?

Are you suggesting that you can trust your "senses" concerning the Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God?

Are you suggesting that you can trust your evaluation of your fruitfulness, and know that it is not self motivated deception?

You can be certain that anything of the self is definitely evil and deceptive. You can be certain that anything that is not of the self but of the Spirit is always truth. You can also be certain that the Spirit is able to reveal truth to you through faith.

It would seem to be that if one is using those two passages for security, one is forced to evaluate themselves which transfers the trust to one's own sense of what is true fruit or what is the Spirit's bearing witness?

This is not our own evaluation in the flesh - this is the revelation of the Spirit in our spirit. The former will always be deceptive - the latter is always true.

None the less, one who believes in Calvinism is forced to make a decision concerning whether they are truly in the faith, and this may be self deception. Afterall, man heart is extremely wicked and self deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9).

Man in the flesh has a totally depraved heart - and he is continually deceived by sin in his flesh. This is precisely why one needs to be regenerated by the Spirit - to have a new heart and a renewed spirit - through which man is able to discern truth imparted by the Spirit in his new regenerated nature.

To be a conisistent Calvinist, one either forced to make a decision about whether they are truly in the faith, or abandon all security, relying totally on the sovereignty of God and wait until judgement to find out if they are truly in the faith:

We are truly in the faith as long as we rest totally upon the works of God alone - and in this is our security. What is your argument against?

 

[HisSheep]

Hi Adelphos,

Your post it pretty flashy, but it doesn’t really make that much sense. I paraphrase it like this:

The proof that God doesn’t choose His people is that those who claim that He does aren’t certain of their salvation.

That’s what I get from your post, am I right? This sounds more like a question about the awareness of salvation than one about Calvinism. Trying to use salvation evidence arguments to disprove Calvinism is just plain loopy.

Whether God chose you or you chose God, He obviously doesn’t want His people left to wonder. He wants bold, confident witnesses who know their status. That is why He gave us verses like 1 John 5:13:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Scripture explains the way a Christian can be convinced of God’s work in him. Make a special reading of 1 John (not to be confused with John 1) with this topic in mind. It gives us the best description in all of scripture of the evidences of salvation.

The fact is: one can’t be reborn without knowing it full well, Calvinist or not.

-HisSheep

 

[Saltwater]

Hi,

The reality is that if one studies the Calvinistic doctrinal system, one is left with a sense of complete and uttter insecurity - just the opposite of what they teach, at least from a very pragmatic and experiential point of reference. An objective thinking Calvinist will recognize what I say as true immediately. You see, even the most dedicated Calvinist cannot claim that they know for certain that they are one of the elect! If they do say so, they argue it from "experience," not absolute knowledge. They will claim that they have fruit, or the Spirit bears them witness, etc... which really makes it boild down to "their decision of what they believe to be true." In reality, using their own system, it would be absolutely presumptuous to make this claim. So, in essence, how can a Calvinist really, and actually know they are elect - oh no, it can't be through repentance and faith, and a resulting holy life, can it be?

Respectfully,

Adelphos​

Hello Adelphos,

Over the years of fellowshipping with Calvinists I have found the following teaching to be the source of this insecurity I think you ar talking about.

Once one has fellowshipped within Christian circles for quite a few years we eventually encounter people who clearly were Christians (demonstrated by the works/fruit accompanying their faith) but who grow cold & end up ceasing living as Christians & go back into worldly living.

Two explanations are usually given to explain the behaviour of these people which usually follows along these lines:

1. they were never saved in the first place
2. they were not part of the elect & God gave them a false faith/belief which fooled them into thinking they really were Christians (I've forgotten the term Calvinists use for this type of faith/belief).

The insecurity arises when a Calvinist cannot gurarantee that the same fate will not happen to them in the future. How can they know that they are not really partakers of the above type of faith/belief? As you say they cannot argue from the point of absolute knowledge & I would add even from experience as both may be spurious.

Is this the type of insecurity you are talking about?

 

[HisSheep]

An interesting nuance Saltwater. Thank you for the clarification.

Don’t forget the third possible explanation to the scenario of our wayward friend: that the poor soul is temporarily backsliding, and may well return… Perhaps he is the “one†in the “Ninety and Nineâ€:

The Ninety and Nine

1. There were ninety and nine that safely lay
In the shelter of the fold.
But one was out on the hills away,
Far off from the gates of gold.
Away on the mountains wild and bare.
Away from the tender Shepherd's care.
Away from the tender Shepherd's care.

2. "Lord, Thou hast here Thy ninety and nine;
Are they not enough for Thee?"
But the Shepherd made answer: "This of Mine
Has wandered away from Me;
And although the road be rough and steep,
I go to the desert to find My sheep,
I go to the desert to find My sheep."

3. But none of the ransomed ever knew
How deep were the waters crossed;
Nor how dark was the night the Lord passed through
Ere He found His sheep that was lost.
Out in the desert He heard its cry,
Sick and helpless and ready to die;
Sick and helpless and ready to die.

4. "Lord, whence are those blood drops all the way
That mark out the mountain's track?"
"They were shed for one who had gone astray
Ere the Shepherd could bring him back."
"Lord, whence are Thy hands so rent and torn?"
"They are pierced tonight by many a thorn;
They are pierced tonight by many a thorn."

5. And all through the mountains, thunder riven
And up from the rocky steep,
There arose a glad cry to the gate of Heaven,
"Rejoice! I have found My sheep!"
And the angels echoed around the throne,
"Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own!
Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own!"

Despite skillful clarification, the foundation of the thread remains flawed: Arminians don’t have this “absolute knowledge†of salvation either. So, logical thinkers must remove it from BOTH SIDES of the equation.

A much more illuminating question regarding sovereign election goes something like this:

Bearing in mind that all glory belongs solely to God, what is the difference between those who go to Heaven and those who go to Hell?

I think that an Arminian must answer that the difference resides with the souls in question; that they chose their own fates. Hence, those in Heaven are wholely responsible for their own salvation. They saved themselves.

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Hi,

The reality is that if one studies the Calvinistic doctrinal system, one is left with a sense of complete and uttter insecurity - just the opposite of what they teach, at least from a very pragmatic and experiential point of reference. An objective thinking Calvinist will recognize what I say as true immediately. You see, even the most dedicated Calvinist cannot claim that they know for certain that they are one of the elect! If they do say so, they argue it from "experience," not absolute knowledge. They will claim that they have fruit, or the Spirit bears them witness, etc... which really makes it boild down to "their decision of what they believe to be true." In reality, using their own system, it would be absolutely presumptuous to make this claim. So, in essence, how can a Calvinist really, and actually know they are elect - oh no, it can't be through repentance and faith, and a resulting holy life, can it be?

Respectfully,




Adelphos​

Good points...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So, are you suggesting that finding security in the continual working of God alone brings personal salvific security?

Are you suggesting, then, that one's salvation is secure by merely mentally ascribing to the revelation of God's nature and how He works while denying the flesh any glory brings personal salvific security?

May I suggest that if a Calvinist is secure by what you have shared, then my point is still valid - there is no personal security in the faith. I would consider this a shift brong Biblical faith to embracing of a mere Biblical hope. Thus no saving security!



Are you suggesting that you can trust your "senses" concerning the Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God?

Are you suggesting that you can trust your evaluation of your fruitfulness, and know that it is not self motivated deception?

It would seem to be that if one is using those two passages for security, one is forced to evaluate themselves which transfers the trust to one's own sense of what is true fruit or what is the Spirit's bearing witness? Thus, no saving security!



I may be holding some misconceptions, this is true. None the less, one who believes in Calvinism is forced to make a decision concerning whether they are truly in the faith, and this may be self deception. Afterall, man heart is extremely wicked and self deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9). Thus, no saving security!

To be a conisistent Calvinist, one either forced to make a decision about whether they are truly in the faith, or abandon all security, relying totally on the sovereignty of God and wait until judgement to find out if they are truly in the faith:



Respectfully,

Adelphos

Excellent!!! Calvinism is a heresy that blocks the truth of God's Grace towards an unsaved world. Where should we put our faith, In Christ, or some elitist, man made doctrine???

 

[Grubal Muruch]

An interesting nuance Saltwater. Thank you for the clarification.

Don’t forget the third possible explanation to the scenario of our wayward friend: that the poor soul is temporarily backsliding, and may well return… Perhaps he is the “one†in the “Ninety and Nineâ€:

The Ninety and Nine

1. There were ninety and nine that safely lay
In the shelter of the fold.
But one was out on the hills away,
Far off from the gates of gold.
Away on the mountains wild and bare.
Away from the tender Shepherd's care.
Away from the tender Shepherd's care.

2. "Lord, Thou hast here Thy ninety and nine;
Are they not enough for Thee?"
But the Shepherd made answer: "This of Mine
Has wandered away from Me;
And although the road be rough and steep,
I go to the desert to find My sheep,
I go to the desert to find My sheep."

3. But none of the ransomed ever knew
How deep were the waters crossed;
Nor how dark was the night the Lord passed through
Ere He found His sheep that was lost.
Out in the desert He heard its cry,
Sick and helpless and ready to die;
Sick and helpless and ready to die.

4. "Lord, whence are those blood drops all the way
That mark out the mountain's track?"
"They were shed for one who had gone astray
Ere the Shepherd could bring him back."
"Lord, whence are Thy hands so rent and torn?"
"They are pierced tonight by many a thorn;
They are pierced tonight by many a thorn."

5. And all through the mountains, thunder riven
And up from the rocky steep,
There arose a glad cry to the gate of Heaven,
"Rejoice! I have found My sheep!"
And the angels echoed around the throne,
"Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own!
Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own!"

Despite skillful clarification, the foundation of the thread remains flawed: Arminians don’t have this “absolute knowledge†of salvation either. So, logical thinkers must remove it from BOTH SIDES of the equation.

A much more illuminating question regarding sovereign election goes something like this:

Bearing in mind that all glory belongs solely to God, what is the difference between those who go to Heaven and those who go to Hell?

I think that an Arminian must answer that the difference resides with the souls in question; that they chose their own fates. Hence, those in Heaven are wholely responsible for their own salvation. They saved themselves.

-HisSheep

There will be no man in Hell because of his sins. Only those who REJECT God's Grace will find this end...

 

[Saltwater]

Hello HisSheep,

With regards to your comment: "A much more illuminating question regarding sovereign election goes something like this:

Bearing in mind that all glory belongs solely to God, what is the difference between those who go to Heaven and those who go to Hell?

I think that an Arminian must answer that the difference resides with the souls in question;that they chose their own fates. Hence, those in Heaven are wholely responsible for their own salvation. They saved themselves[/B]."

Just a slight correction re the underlined section - no Christian of the Arminian/Wesleyan persuasion would ever believe or say that they saved themselves. As you rightly said all glory belongs solely to God. Salvation is by grace thru faith & both are sourced from God courtesy of the workings/influence/enabling of prevenient grace.

John ch6 gives a fascinating insight into some of the workings of previent grace, eg. v44-45. But there is a gold mine of teaching to be found on the subject from v22 to the end of the chapter!!

Hope this clarifies a misconception about Arminian/Wesleyan beliefs!

 

[adelphos]

Hi Adelphos,

Your post it pretty flashy, but it doesn’t really make that much sense. I paraphrase it like this:

The proof that God doesn’t choose His people is that those who claim that He does aren’t certain of their salvation.

That’s what I get from your post, am I right? This sounds more like a question about the awareness of salvation than one about Calvinism. Trying to use salvation evidence arguments to disprove Calvinism is just plain loopy.

Whether God chose you or you chose God, He obviously doesn’t want His people left to wonder. He wants bold, confident witnesses who know their status. That is why He gave us verses like 1 John 5:13:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Scripture explains the way a Christian can be convinced of God’s work in him. Make a special reading of 1 John (not to be confused with John 1) with this topic in mind. It gives us the best description in all of scripture of the evidences of salvation.

The fact is: one can’t be reborn without knowing it full well, Calvinist or not.

-HisSheep

This is no more than a Cavalier Dismissal as I read it.

Respectfully

Adelphos

 

[HisSheep]

A dismissal, huh... I see. I can assure you, I thought my post out carefully and it is scriptural, cogent and honest. That you think it is a mere dismissal is a bit of a poke in the eye. Why would you do me like that?

Nevertheless, I reiterate the question again for rumination, answers from thread readers requested:

What is the difference between those who end up in Heaven and those who end up in Hell? Did those in Heaven simply make the right choice?

My answer (should you care to consider it): God's mercy alone decides salvation, and He does not offer this to everyone. i.e. Many people live and die without ever hearing the gospel message. God did not simply fail to reach those souls, for God cannot fail. God has planned (or is working) things out so that the lives of the elect will surely intersect with the gospel message, and they will ultimately accept.

Jesus used a lot of sheep analogies, and for good reason. A sheep may not rightly take any credit for having made a right decision to follow the Shepherd or for arriving safely at the fold. The Shepherd is solely responsible for the deliverance of the flock. And our Shepherd cannot fail.

A sheep follows willingly because He is an Awesome and Mighty Shepherd. So I admit, there is a real choice to be made, but to those whom Jesus has revealed the Father, the choice is a "no-brainer". It is an offer that a sheep literally cannot refuse . He makes us want to follow. Emphasis on makes.

Believe me, if God wants me in Hell, that's where I will be; If God wants me in Heaven, that's where I will be. Whatever suits His fancy will certianly happen. I truly believe that I have no say in the matter whatsoever. In fact, I am glad that He has done it this way!

Why do people so despise this understanding of sovereign God and His plan?

Parallel question: Do you think God can bring a spouse into a person's life? Why not salvation?

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

There will be no man in Hell because of his sins. Only those who REJECT God's Grace will find this end...

…But this is not a biblical teaching that you offer us...

If this were the case, we should never spread the gospel message because only those who reject it are condemned to Hell. Folks can’t reject what they don’t hear.

Rather, the bible teaches this:
1.) All men deserve Hell exactly because of their sins.
2.) Only God’s grace through Christ rescues the elect from judgment, under which no man could stand.

Furthermore, no one can reject God’s grace… His grace is the very REASON He cannot be denied. Paul was a murderer, Peter a denier, and Thomas a doubter. (Just 3 of many examples of God’s grace.) The Hell bent condition of these 3 men didn’t stop Jesus from using them mightily and saving them. If necessary, He will even offer proof to give the gift of faith to those whom He is saving. He will lose none.

-HisSheep

 

[Hitch]

Excellent!!! Calvinism is a heresy that blocks the truth of God's Grace towards an unsaved world. Where should we put our faith, In Christ, or some elitist, man made doctrine???

Which of Calvin's works have you read ?

From which would you quote Cavlin to support your position above?

 

[HisSheep]

No Christian of the Arminian/Wesleyan persuasion would ever believe or say that they saved themselves. As you rightly said all glory belongs solely to God. Salvation is by grace thru faith & both are sourced from God courtesy of the workings/influence/enabling of prevenient grace.

Hi Saltwater,

Get rid of the wish-washy word “prevenient†and I agree with this statement. But I’ll bet you could predict that. ;)

Of course a Christian wouldn’t actually say that they “saved themselvesâ€. That’s just the ironic (and comical) conclusion I arrive at if the fundamental difference between those in Heaven and those in Hell is said to be the decision that they made… If all other things (like God’s grace) are equal, then the only difference is their decision. By saying that, Christians effectively (though not literally) say that they alone are the deciding factor in their salvation…

We should not be at all surprised to find man putting himself in the place of descisionmaker-in-chief. As Charles Spurgeon said, “Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne.†Source: Divine Sovereignty A great sermon delivered May 4, 1856: Every Christian would benefit from reading it.

I imagine a group of people in Heaven saying among themselves, “Boy, I sure am glad I made the right decision!†Isn’t that irony?

God does not offer grace equally to all men. It isn’t consistent with His character. He chose Israel, but not the Philistines. How is that fair? He loved Jacob, but not Esau. He does precisely what suits His purpose. God is not “fair†according to worldly standards:

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (Romans 9:18)

-HisSheep

 

[Eventide]

As usual.. many struggle with the most simple aspects of the holy scriptures..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Nothing

 

[Saltwater]

Hello HisSheep,

I like your sense of humour but not your theology!!

Please keep it up (the sense of humour I mean!!!)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

As usual.. many struggle with the most simple aspects of the holy scriptures..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Nothing

A is your ONLY option. B will seal your DOOM...

 

[Eventide]

That true Light..

A is your ONLY option. B will seal your DOOM...

I'll add that a) is biblical and that b) is unbiblical... and from the beginning this is God's 'condition' for all who are chosen to salvation.. belief of the truth.

And of course HE IS the way, the truth, and the life.

But of course those who claim that they could not believe the gospel then must criticize those who do believe the gospel.. and come up with the strawman that they were 'good enough' to believe the truth on their own.. as if the Spirit's conviction and the gospel of God concerning His Son had nothing to do with it.. ? ? ?