The Insecurity of Calvinism

[HisSheep]

Would you agree that, initially, we must come to Christ with our, weak mustard seed faith (and believe with that) then, we are given Christ's "faith" by the Holy Spirit???

God initiates the salvation, if that clarifies things. He must draw, call, and enable a person. Those whom He draws, He saves. Those He saves, He brings to Heaven.

There are 3 tenses of salvation. So there is growth. (someone mentioned this in one of these recent threads, and they're right.) When discussing salvation, Paul refers specifically to a person who:

Is saved... (This is justification)
Is being saved... (This is sanctification)
Will be saved... (This is glorification.)

Thses things are each silmultaneously true of Christians. AND all three happen to ALL those whom He calls:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

If you come with your OWN flawed faith, you will be like the seed that fell among the thorns; It will not prevail against the world.

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

God initiates the salvation, if that clarifies things. He must draw, call, and enable a person. Those whom He draws, He saves. Those He saves, He brings to Heaven.

There are 3 tenses of salvation. So there is growth. (someone mentioned this in one of these recent threads, and they're right.) When discussing salvation, Paul refers specifically to a person who:

Is saved... (This is justification)
Is being saved... (This is sanctification)
Will be saved... (This is glorification.)

Thses things are each silmultaneously true of Christians. AND all three happen to ALL those whom He calls:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

If you come with your OWN flawed faith, you will be like the seed that fell among the thorns; It will not prevail against the world.

-HisSheep

God initiates the salvation, through the deliverance of His Gospel (good news) to ALL men. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." It's true ALL men are flawed and sinners, and that's precisely why Christ came and paid the price for the sins of ALL men. Now ALL men have the offer of God's gift. Some will receive, other's will not...Free-will, as seen in the Bible is, irrefutable...There is Free-will written throughout Scripture...

 

[childeye]

God initiates the salvation, through the deliverance of His Gospel (good news) to ALL men. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." It's true ALL men are flawed and sinners, and that's precisely why Christ came and paid the price for the sins of ALL men. Now ALL men have the offer of God's gift. Some will receive, other's will not...Free-will, as seen in the Bible is, irrefutable...There is Free-will written throughout Scripture...

Grubal. Name one instance where the noun not the adjective, "freewill" defined as free to disobey or obey God is found. To be clear name one instance where the flesh was not the power of diobedience and Trust in Love was not the power of obedience. For to be truly free in the will there can be no power restraining or compelling the decision.

free will

[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: [SIZE=+0]chose to remain behind of my own free will.[/SIZE]
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal. Name one instance where the noun not the adjective, "freewill" defined as free to disobey or obey God is found. To be clear name one instance where the flesh was not the power of diobedience and Trust in Love was not the power of obedience. For to be truly free in the will there can be no power restraining or compelling the decision.

free will

[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: [SIZE=+0]chose to remain behind of my own free will.[/SIZE]
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

We have a, "free-will" to choose what we believe. We are not, forced of God, to choose Salvation or not. Putting the English lessons aside, let us rather stick to the, truth and error of things...

 

[ivdavid]

A "worldly work" can be, good, bad, or indifferent.

Are you sure about this? Any work that involves a moral choice can only be good or bad. Can you point me to where there is this concept of neutral 'indifferent' works involving moral choice? Some illustrations too would be helpful in my understanding this.

For instance, if an unbeliever gives money to the poor, is that sinful (or evil?) The Bible teaches us, to give to the poor.

Please distinguish between good works w.r.t. its effects - and good works w.r.t. the intent of the doer.
Giving money to the poor is, in common parlance, called a "good" work w.r.t. its effect in benefiting the poor. This is not what I'm referring to. But the doer of this work can be said to have done a good work only if his intent is right before God - else, if he has transgressed God's law, he is deemed to have committed an act of sin.

Would you say God was indifferent towards the act of giving money to the poor in Matt 6:2?


And since I want to understand your position more clearly, I'm repeating some of my earlier questions that might have been missed by you -

- Will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good but dead works" be judged by God or not?
- And if they are judged, will God approve of these thoughts and intents to be according to His will or not?
- Aren't works that detract from the glory of God considered sinful?

Simple "yes/no/waiting on the Lord to reveal" answers are sufficient for now. I just want to know what exactly you do believe on this subject that you've kept at for a while.

 

[childeye]

We have a, "free-will" to choose what we believe. We are not, forced of God, to choose Salvation or not. Putting the English lessons aside, let us rather stick to the, truth and error of things...

Now how can we stick to truth by putting the truth of the definition of a term aside. With all due respect Grubal, you have made a statement claiming scripture says we are free to choose either way at our convenience and I don't think it unfair to ask you you to back it up. I take it that you are not willing to do so because you are unable to according to the dictionary definition provided. If that's the case just say so.

Love is a good force Grubal, and you address it as if the power of goodness is an imposition and should be only at man's discretion. This is only true when in ignorance of what Love is. As the prodigal son was. For the prodigal son was forced to admit his error in thinking freedom was outside his fathers house.

I hope you see the difference between the powers of light and dark, which is why I gave you the definition of freewill that is commonly used; to show you that according to that definition, there is no scripture that says there is a freewill except the very first lie said in the garden. Expressly this: You can disobey God and live. God cannot force you to comply. You can be your own master just like God. That's semantics being used to beguile the gullible. Had we not been ignorant of such semantics, we would have said to Satan,"I want to be forced. I want to be compelled by Love and be restrained by love". But we can only say that now, because we only now see that God is Love and therefore He is ever trustworthy. We now see the effects of sin upon our wills that were supposedly free and it is even this Love that makes us now see and even care.

I don't want this freewill of the devil because it does not exist. It is in fact slavery to dark forces. I want the freewill that is slavery to the good force. Only then will I be fit to be a son when I have the desire to be a servant. Let me make a statement here about the semantics of Satan. It"s God's way or the highway; To some, they hear me saying they have a choice when in fact I am saying they don't.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Are you sure about this? Any work that involves a moral choice can only be good or bad. Can you point me to where there is this concept of neutral 'indifferent' works involving moral choice? Some illustrations too would be helpful in my understanding this.


Please distinguish between good works w.r.t. its effects - and good works w.r.t. the intent of the doer.
Giving money to the poor is, in common parlance, called a "good" work w.r.t. its effect in benefiting the poor. This is not what I'm referring to. But the doer of this work can be said to have done a good work only if his intent is right before God - else, if he has transgressed God's law, he is deemed to have committed an act of sin.

Would you say God was indifferent towards the act of giving money to the poor in Matt 6:2?


And since I want to understand your position more clearly, I'm repeating some of my earlier questions that might have been missed by you -

- Will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good but dead works" be judged by God or not?
- And if they are judged, will God approve of these thoughts and intents to be according to His will or not?
- Aren't works that detract from the glory of God considered sinful?

Simple "yes/no/waiting on the Lord to reveal" answers are sufficient for now. I just want to know what exactly you do believe on this subject that you've kept at for a while.

First of all, what does W.R.T stand for? I'm unfamiliar...

 

[ivdavid]

Sorry. It stands for "With Respect To"....

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Are you sure about this? Any work that involves a moral choice can only be good or bad. Can you point me to where there is this concept of neutral 'indifferent' works involving moral choice? Some illustrations too would be helpful in my understanding this.


Please distinguish between good works w.r.t. its effects - and good works w.r.t. the intent of the doer.
Giving money to the poor is, in common parlance, called a "good" work w.r.t. its effect in benefiting the poor. This is not what I'm referring to. But the doer of this work can be said to have done a good work only if his intent is right before God - else, if he has transgressed God's law, he is deemed to have committed an act of sin.

Would you say God was indifferent towards the act of giving money to the poor in Matt 6:2?


And since I want to understand your position more clearly, I'm repeating some of my earlier questions that might have been missed by you -

- Will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good but dead works" be judged by God or not?
- And if they are judged, will God approve of these thoughts and intents to be according to His will or not?
- Aren't works that detract from the glory of God considered sinful?

Simple "yes/no/waiting on the Lord to reveal" answers are sufficient for now. I just want to know what exactly you do believe on this subject that you've kept at for a while.

ivdavid says---Are you sure about this? Any work that involves a moral choice can only be good or bad. Can you point me to where there is this concept of neutral 'indifferent' works involving moral choice? Some illustrations too would be helpful in my understanding this.

Grubal---As humans we make choices that are either good, bad (evil) or have nothing to do with either good nor bad they are just plain choices.

ivdavid says---Please distinguish between good works w.r.t. its effects - and good works w.r.t. the intent of the doer.
Giving money to the poor is, in common parlance, called a "good" work w.r.t. its effect in benefiting the poor. This is not what I'm referring to. But the doer of this work can be said to have done a good work only if his intent is right before God - else, if he has transgressed God's law, he is deemed to have committed an act of sin.

Grubal---If this is w.r.t the unbeliever, than neither the intent nor the outcome can be regarded as anything but a "dead work," and therefore of no Spiritual significance. The believer has the indwelling Spirit of God and is immensely influenced to do "good works" that bring glory to God...

ivdavid says---Would you say God was indifferent towards the act of giving money to the poor in Matt 6:2?

Grubal---The Scripture is in reference to Christ telling the people not to call attention to themselves regarding, giving to the poor. He says, "As the hypocrites do." The intent of giving should not be from a, self centered, hey, look at me and how good I am approach, but an act of doing right before God. Another words, do it in silence, before God...

ivdavid says---Will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good but dead works" be judged by God or not?

Grubal---All that can be said about this is, in Revelation it speaks of ALL having to give an account of what they did in the flesh. That would indeed, include intent and outcome. But the unbeliever will get no rewards for the good he did because his works were ALL dead...

ivdavid says--- Aren't works that detract from the glory of God considered sinful?

Grubal---Please be more specific here...

ivdavid says---Simple "yes/no/waiting on the Lord to reveal" answers are sufficient for now. I just want to know what exactly you do believe on this subject that you've kept at for a while

Grubal---Which subject are you referring to???

 

[ivdavid]

As humans we make choices that are either good, bad (evil) or have nothing to do with either good nor bad they are just plain choices.

Agreed. But when it comes to moral choices, I can't imagine what would be a neither-good-nor-bad choice. Could you give some examples of such moral choices.

Would you say God was indifferent towards the act of giving money to the poor in Matt 6:2?

The intent of giving should not be from a, self centered, hey, look at me and how good I am approach...

You're right there about what is expected by God. But I'd still like my question to be answered unambiguously. When these people in Matt 6:2 acted out of a self-centered intent, was God being indifferent or was He chastising them of sin?

Will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good but dead works" be judged by God or not?

That[The account of our deeds at judgement] would indeed, include intent and outcome.

I'll take that as a "yes" to my question, if you will have no objections to that. Well then, does the Scripture tell us if the intent behind these "good but dead works" are according to the will of God or if they're against it?

Please be more specific here...

If there is a particular act that would give glory unto God - and if one does not do that act, thereby falling short of the glory of God, - would that not be considered sinful? To not do the work that we know we ought to do is sin too, right?

Which subject are you referring to???

This very topic we've been discussing on so far - the nature of the flesh.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Now how can we stick to truth by putting the truth of the definition of a term aside. With all due respect Grubal, you have made a statement claiming scripture says we are free to choose either way at our convenience and I don't think it unfair to ask you you to back it up. I take it that you are not willing to do so because you are unable to according to the dictionary definition provided. If that's the case just say so.

Love is a good force Grubal, and you address it as if the power of goodness is an imposition and should be only at man's discretion. This is only true when in ignorance of what Love is. As the prodigal son was. For the prodigal son was forced to admit his error in thinking freedom was outside his fathers house.

I hope you see the difference between the powers of light and dark, which is why I gave you the definition of freewill that is commonly used; to show you that according to that definition, there is no scripture that says there is a freewill except the very first lie said in the garden. Expressly this: You can disobey God and live. God cannot force you to comply. You can be your own master just like God. That's semantics being used to beguile the gullible. Had we not been ignorant of such semantics, we would have said to Satan,"I want to be forced. I want to be compelled by Love and be restrained by love". But we can only say that now, because we only now see that God is Love and therefore He is ever trustworthy. We now see the effects of sin upon our wills that were supposedly free and it is even this Love that makes us now see and even care.

I don't want this freewill of the devil because it does not exist. It is in fact slavery to dark forces. I want the freewill that is slavery to the good force. Only then will I be fit to be a son when I have the desire to be a servant. Let me make a statement here about the semantics of Satan. It"s God's way or the highway; To some, they hear me saying they have a choice when in fact I am saying they don't.

What pleases God? Answer:faith. Does it please Him because He "forces" it on us? (the world) Or is He pleased when we come before Him, acknowledging the truth of His Love,mercy,and righteousness. Granted our Salvation needs the work of the Holy Spirit. And as Christ said, "He (Christ) would draw all men to God the Father."

How about you answer a couple questions now???

The question is, how do you "KNOW" for a certainty, that you were, CHOSEN by God to be one of the "Elect?" What exactly tells or shows you that you were chosen? Do you KNOW with certainty that if you died today you would be with Christ in Heaven and why???

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Agreed. But when it comes to moral choices, I can't imagine what would be a neither-good-nor-bad choice. Could you give some examples of such moral choices.


You're right there about what is expected by God. But I'd still like my question to be answered unambiguously. When these people in Matt 6:2 acted out of a self-centered intent, was God being indifferent or was He chastising them of sin?


I'll take that as a "yes" to my question, if you will have no objections to that. Well then, does the Scripture tell us if the intent behind these "good but dead works" are according to the will of God or if they're against it?


If there is a particular act that would give glory unto God - and if one does not do that act, thereby falling short of the glory of God, - would that not be considered sinful? To not do the work that we know we ought to do is sin too, right?


This very topic we've been discussing on so far - the nature of the flesh.

ivdavid---Agreed. But when it comes to moral choices, I can't imagine what would be a neither-good-nor-bad choice. Could you give some examples of such moral choices.

Grubal---If the criteria is, moral choices, then anything mentioned would not have moral significance. Simple things like, where will I go to school, this one or that. They would not be "moral" choices however, they are considered everyday choices of no real consequence...The two moral areas would be, good and evil...

ivdavid---When these people in Matt 6:2 acted out of a self-centered intent, was God being indifferent or was He chastising them of sin?

Grubal---Christ was admonishing that they ought NOT to follow in the footsteps of those who called attention to themselves, and sought glory from their fellow man. He told (those of whom He was speaking) that, those who were behaving that way, had their reward, which was the reward of their fellow man, and not from God...

ivdavid---does the Scripture tell us if the intent behind these "good but dead works" are according to the will of God or if they're against it?

Grubal---All "good works" done in the "flesh" are dead works. They have NO Spiritual significance. The unbeliever receives no reward from God for his "worldly good works." Before regeneration, man's righteousness's according to Scripture are, "as filthy rags."

ivdavid---If there is a particular act that would give glory unto God - and if one does not do that act, thereby falling short of the glory of God, - would that not be considered sinful?

Grubal---According to James 4:17--- ,"Therefore,to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."


However, ALL sins of the believer were covered at Calvary. But the outcome of continued purposeful sin, could bring, the discipline of the Lord...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;578219]What pleases God? Answer:faith.

Yes, we agree and that is important. Now let's define this faith that we are agreeing upon. This faith that pleases God must be faith in God, not faith in Satan. For belief in Satan is unbelief in God. Therefore if I said to Jesus that God is always a liar, he would not say, you have great faith. Can we agree on this? Please answer me on this Grubal.

Does it please Him because He "forces" it on us? (the world) Or is He pleased when we come before Him, acknowledging the truth of His Love,mercy,and righteousness.

There is no difference between Him forcing it upon us and our acknowledging the Truth of His Love, mercy, and righteousness. Now hold on and don't hit the roof after reading that last statement. Let me explain. Logic concludes that if God is in fact Loving, kind, righteous and merciful, then our acknowledging that, is inevitable for it is knowledge of God. It's more pleasing to God that we take Him at His Word than if He has to die on a cross through extreme torture to prove it.

Yes, I know a man can yet deny that God is Loving, kind, righteous, and merciful. But this is to deceive one's self and be deceived under the guise of a freewill. It is not our free choice to declare Truth and hold a false image of God therefore. For we can declare it all we want that God is a liar and Satan is true till we are blue in the face but it will never make it true. Nor was it our freechoice in the first place when we believed God was a liar. For man in the garden of Eden was told this lie in a subtle form by the serpent. It was not willed into existence by mankind or by God. Therefore the onus was put upon Adam by Satan and Adam was forced to make a determination that in his innocence he would have never even considered without Satan's provocation. This is therefore properly termed as determinism not freewill.

Satan introduced the false image of god not Adam or Eve. Now since Adam was obviously perplexed by such a new and strange concept of God, he listened to the woman whom he felt he could trust, as this was bone of his own bone and flesh of his own flesh. I believe she had already eaten when Adam partook, but that is beside thepoint. I believe in all purity that they were like innocent children being told by a stranger that their mommy had sent the stranger to pick them up. To believe they knowingly meant to slander God is to reveal before heaven that I don't believe God is Holy and I am under a lie.

Granted our Salvation needs the work of the Holy Spirit. And as Christ said, "He (Christ) would draw all men to God the Father."

Yes, and to be clear, it is the Holy Spirit that now comes to testify to the trustworthiness of God the Father, through the work of His son on the cross who pays for our mistake first wrought in Adam through the lies of Satan. His blood is the price God paid to get us back.

How about you answer a couple questions now???

The question is, how do you "KNOW" for a certainty, that you were, CHOSEN by God to be one of the "Elect?" What exactly tells or shows you that you were chosen? Do you KNOW with certainty that if you died today you would be with Christ in Heaven and why???

I don't know for certain. I don't need to in my opinion. I only need to hope I am. There are those who say I must conclude that I am elect or God would not be the loving kind and merciful God I proclaim Him to be. I understand the argument and they make a good and solid point. There is no flaw in their argument. I do not condemn their boldness nor envy it. It's just that I wish to come back to God in the hopes He will take me as a servant even as the prodigal son did, that I might come contrite of heart, and full of humility, and without expectation other than a hope in His mercy. I must be pure and sincere in valuing His mercy. I will come on my knees beating myself for ever thinking God was anything but perfect. My Love for God will be deeper than if I had expected it all along is how I see it. So in effect I fight any such certainty lest in blindness of complacency, Satan is able to deceive me.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes, we agree and that is important. Now let's define this faith that we are agreeing upon. This faith that pleases God must be faith in God, not faith in Satan. For belief in Satan is unbelief in God. Therefore if I said to Jesus that God is always a liar, he would not say, you have great faith. Can we agree on this? Please answer me on this.


There is no difference between Him forcing it upon us and our acknowledging the Truth of His Love, mercy, and righteousness. Now hold on and don't hit the roof after reading that last statement. Let me explain. Logic concludes that if God is in fact Loving, kind, righteous and merciful, then our acknowledging that, is inevitable for it is knowledge of God. It's more pleasing to God that we take Him at His Word than if He has to die on a cross through extreme torture to prove it.

Yes, I know a man can yet deny that God is Loving, kind, righteous, and merciful. But this is to deceive one's self and be deceived under the guise of a freewill. It is not our free choice to declare Truth and hold a false image of God therefore. For we can declare it all we want that God is a liar and Satan is true till we are blue in the face but it will never make it true. Nor was it our freechoice in the first place when we believed God was a liar. For man in the garden of Eden was told this lie in a subtle form by the serpent. It was not willed into existence by mankind or by God. Therefore the onus was put upon Adam by Satan and Adam was forced to make a determination that in his innocence he would have never even considered without Satan's provocation. This is therefore properly termed as determinism not freewill.

Satan introduced the false image of god not Adam or Eve. Now since Adam was obviously perplexed by such a new and strange concept of God, he listened to the woman whom he felt he could trust, as this was bone of his own bone and flesh of his own flesh. I believe she had already eaten when Adam partook, but that is beside thepoint. I believe in all purity that they were like innocent children being told by a stranger that their mommy had sent the stranger to pick them up. To believe they knowingly meant to slander God is to reveal before heaven that I don't believe God is Holy and I am under a lie.

Yes, and to be clear, it is the Holy Spirit that now comes to testify to the trustworthiness of God the Father, through the work of His son on the cross who pays for our mistake first wrought in Adam through the lies of Satan. His blood is the price God paid to get us back.


I don't know for certain. I don't need to in my opinion. I only need to hope I am. There are those who say I must conclude that I am elect or God would not be the loving kind and merciful God I proclaim Him to be. I understand the argument and they make a good and solid point. There is no flaw in their argument. I do not condemn their boldness nor envy it. It's just that I wish to come back to God in the hopes He will take me as a servant even as the prodigal son did, that I might come contrite of heart, and full of humility, and without expectation. I must be pure and sincere in valuing His mercy. I will come on my knees beating myself for ever thinking God was anything but perfect. My Love for God will be deeper than if I had expected it all along is how I see it. So in effect I fight any such certainty lest in blindness of complacency, Satan is able to deceive me.

Before I answer anymore questions, I have a few for you.
1) How do you KNOW that you are one of the Elect???
2) What feeling, knowledge, actions, etc. prove that you are one of the Elect???
3) If you were to die today, are you certain where you would spend eternity and why???

 

[HisSheep]

…But you guys!

We CAN know….And God WANTS us to know…

It is the primary purpose of John’s First Epistle:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

And again, I say, One cannot be “born again†without knowing it full well.

We can tell if we are regenerate by the attendant change in our desires.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

Eternal security / knowledge of salvation is a very separate issue than election/freewill…

They are NOT mutually exclusive.

Many Arminians don't proclaim eternal security... Why shouldn't that disprove Arminianism?

-HisSheep

 

[childeye]

Before I answer anymore questions, I have a few for you.
1) How do you KNOW that you are one of the Elect???
2) What feeling, knowledge, actions, etc. prove that you are one of the Elect???
3) If you were to die today, are you certain where you would spend eternity and why???

Apparrently you did not read my post Grubal.

I don't know for certain. I don't need to in my opinion. I only need to hope I am. There are those who say I must conclude that I am elect or God would not be the loving kind and merciful God I proclaim Him to be. I understand the argument and they make a good and solid point. There is no flaw in their argument. I do not condemn their boldness nor envy it. It's just that I wish to come back to God in the hopes He will take me as a servant even as the prodigal son did, that I might come contrite of heart, and full of humility, and without any expectation that would be haughty. I must be pure and sincere in valuing His mercy. I will come on my knees beating myself for ever thinking God was anything but perfect. My Love for God will be deeper than if I had expected to be saved all along is how I see it. So in effect I fight any such certainty lest in blindness of complacency, Satan is able to deceive me.

 

[childeye]

…But you guys!

We CAN know….And God WANTS us to know…

It is the primary purpose of John’s First Epistle:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

And again, I say, One cannot be “born again” without knowing it full well.

We can tell if we are regenerate by the attendant change in our desires.

-HisSheep

Okay HisSheep. I do not wish to be contentious one bit lest I tarnish your wonderful glow. After all, why would one wish to argue against his own salvation? But I will say this. I do not doubt God's promise, nor do I doubt the power of the blood of Christ. I doubt none of that. I do not fear God in vain, as far as I can tell least ways. I do not want to take anything for granted.

2 Corinthians 7:10

King James Version (KJV)


10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Philippians 2:12

King James Version (KJV)


12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Thessalonians 5:8

King James Version (KJV)


8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Romans 8:24-25

King James Version (KJV)



24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Titus 3:7-8

King James Version (KJV)



7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Apparrently you did not read my post Gubal.

I don't know for certain. I don't need to in my opinion. I only need to hope I am. There are those who say I must conclude that I am elect or God would not be the loving kind and merciful God I proclaim Him to be. I understand the argument and they make a good and solid point. There is no flaw in their argument. I do not condemn their boldness nor envy it. It's just that I wish to come back to God in the hopes He will take me as a servant even as the prodigal son did, that I might come contrite of heart, and full of humility, and without expectation that would be haughty. I must be pure and sincere in valuing His mercy. I will come on my knees beating myself for ever thinking God was anything but perfect. My Love for God will be deeper than if I had expected to be saved all along is how I see it. So in effect I fight any such certainty lest in blindness of complacency, Satan is able to deceive me.

That's the same as concluding that, I don't KNOW if I'm healthy, and in my opinion I don't need to know...You NEED to KNOW if your healthy physically and Spiritually. That's only logical.

In 1 John 5:13 it states, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Just having hope doesn't cut it, you must KNOW. After all don't you want to KNOW where you'll spend eternity???

childeye---There are those who say I must conclude that I am elect or God would not be the loving kind and merciful God I proclaim Him to be. I understand the argument and they make a good and solid point.

Grubal---You may be proclaiming that God is those things, but, is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? Are you trusting Him for the forgiveness of your sins? Have you been, born again by the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit dwell within you through the Grace of God? If you can't answer all of these in the affirmative then you need to do some more seeking...Right now your making assumptions based on other peoples opinions and the idea that you proclaim God as a kind Loving, and merciful God . The Bible says, "You MUST be born again.

God wants you to KNOW you are forgiven. He wants you to KNOW you are Saved by His Grace.

1 Corinthians 14:33 says, "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." God does not want you to be confused about what you believe...

Romans 10:9-10 says, "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We come to God with our small amount of (mustard seed faith) and He gives us "Christs faith" that we might believe. Mark 9:23-25

New King James Version (NKJV)
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a] all things are possible to him who believes.â€
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!â€
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!â€

Read in Matthew 8:5-10 It's speaking about the individual faith of a certain man

Luke 8:40-49

[40] Now when Jesus returned, a crowd welcomed him, for they were all expecting him. [41] Then a man named Jairus, a ruler of the synagogue, came and fell at Jesus' feet, pleading with him to come to his house [42] because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying.

As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him. [43] And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, but no one could heal her. [44] She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.

[45] "Who touched me?" Jesus asked.

When they all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you."

[46] But Jesus said, "Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me."

[47] Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. [48] Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

Here in these verses are instances where mans own faith was used to bring about positive conclusions...(mustard seed faith.) Christ's faith is applied during the Salvation process. But at first we must come before God. (Hebrews 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It's better to be safe than to be sorry later...

 

[HisSheep]

Okay HisSheep. I do not wish to be contentious one bit lest I tarnish your wonderful glow.

What the...?

What'd I do to deserve a chilly remark such as this?

Anyway...

Don’t let the word “hope†rob the bible of its promise to believers of their salvation! "The Biblical definition of hope is "confident expectation."" This is the thesis statement of this brief article from Got Questions.org, a really good outfit:

http://www.gotquestions.org/hope-Bible.html

There are a lot of verses to support eternal security.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6)

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(Romans 5:10)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.(1 John 3:14)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(mark 16:16)

-HisSheep