The Insecurity of Calvinism

[Grubal Muruch]

What exactly do you mean by that qualification? Is there some "Fleshly" good in man before regeneration?

There is a "worldly" good that people participate in. Such as, giving to the poor, giving a helping hand to a stranger, etc,.etc. These kind of "worldly works" are pleasant in the world we live in but in the Spiritual world, so far as God's concerned, those "good works" are as filthy rags (our righteousness) Only after we are "born again" and have the Holy Spirit residing in us, can we manifest true "fruits/good works...

 

[mondar]

Your post Mondar seems to indicate a frustration with dealing with misrepresentation and I empathize. I would like to say I appreciate your contributions to discussion and hope you do not stop writing.

LOL, your right, I felt some frustration. I will take this as a sign to tone it down some. I think it is too easy to judge other peoples motives. When I observe people persistently and consistently misrepresenting things, and bringing nothing but confusion to a conversation, I suspect that they are doing it on purpose. It becomes hard not to give a reply that is a little sharp. Thanks for the reminder that I cannot read motives. I should be aware that people do not always check sources, or do their homework, who here has time to do all that?

I am not going to quit and I would like to continue being a part of the conversation, but it might be better for me to watch and read what others are saying a little more. It will be good for me to learn from ivDavid and HisSheep and see how they handle the misinformation and misrepresentations. I am probably newer to Reformed theology then them and I have much to learn from them.

 

[ivdavid]

There is a "worldly" good that people participate in.

Do you see such distinctions and categorization of "good" in the Bible? An act is either good or it's evil - and that's always w.r.t. God. There is no other basis - neither world nor man. Either the act is for God or it is against God. So, is "worldly good", good in the sight of God or is it evil in His sight? Let's take one of your instances - if an unregenerated unbeliever gives alms to the poor, will this person be said to have done good in the sight of God or would he be said to have committed sin in the sight of God - and please note, I am not enquiring w.r.t. the person receiving alms - it's quite obvious that the person has benefited. I'm only asking if this unregenerated man giving alms could be considered to have done a good work in the sight of God or if he has committed sin. Feel free to explore different scenarios, qualifying each one appropriately.

 

[savedbygrace57]

adelp

You see, even the most dedicated Calvinist cannot claim that they know for certain that they are one of the elect! If they do say so, they argue it from "experience," not absolute knowledge.

So you believe one cannot know if they are absolutely saved or not ? Only the Elect are believers. What you are saying is against scripture.

Jn 10:14

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Now Christ's Sheep are the Same as The Elect. Now Jesus says #1 That He knows His Sheep. #2 And they Know Him ! They know they are Christ Sheep, so they know they are His Elect !

In both cases the word for know and known is the verb ginosko :

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
a) to understand
b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

It is written that Christ, the Son of God hath given us an understanding to know Him that is True ! 1 Jn 5:20

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Also, the given here in 1 Jn 5:20 is in the perfect tense in the greek, it was given once and for all in the past with results into the future. This Understanding will never cease, but will only be increased by God.

So this pretty much shows the error of your comment and how biblically unlearned it was !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Do you see such distinctions and categorization of "good" in the Bible? An act is either good or it's evil - and that's always w.r.t. God. There is no other basis - neither world nor man. Either the act is for God or it is against God. So, is "worldly good", good in the sight of God or is it evil in His sight? Let's take one of your instances - if an unregenerated unbeliever gives alms to the poor, will this person be said to have done good in the sight of God or would he be said to have committed sin in the sight of God - and please note, I am not enquiring w.r.t. the person receiving alms - it's quite obvious that the person has benefited. I'm only asking if this unregenerated man giving alms could be considered to have done a good work in the sight of God or if he has committed sin. Feel free to explore different scenarios, qualifying each one appropriately.

Worldly good (or works of the flesh) are considered "filthy rags" according to the Bible. Therefore, they are neither good nor evil in the sight of God, and therefore, useless and not beneficial to us (in the eternal) or the kingdom of God. And is considered "dead works." Even if an unbeliever gives alms to the poor (as you brought up) the act itself is NOT beneficial in the Spiritual realm, to that person, or towards the kingdom of God. I re-iterate, fleshly, good works are as, "filthy works before God." (Isaiah 64:6) In the end analysis, fleshly man can do "good words" but they are ONLY beneficial in the world we live in. And of NO benefit in eternity. They are "useless."

 

[HisSheep]

Thanks for the compliment (that was nice) However, I do profoundly disagree with your assessment that God ONLY offers His Grace to a few "chosen" people,that is, unacceptable with regards to logical sense. Time and time again the Bible speaks about how God's mercy and forgiveness is offered to a world of lost sinners. Men have (had the free will) since he was first created. Look at the Jews in the wilderness how they rebelled and disobeyed God, and how each time He forgave them. Those (the chosen people) had free will to obey or not and choose to disobey God many times. God doesn't make any of us, sin, and then turn around and judge and blame us for sinning. That's not logical and God is a logical Creator and NOT the author of confusion...

I see that this thread has taken a turn toward the value of works. I don’t mean to dig back too deeply into the thread to reply to this, but I had to crash early last night, and couldn’t respond to this like I wanted to.

It is true Grubal, that man has free will, but he cannot choose salvation. We are like sheep. Our will, although free, is so badly flawed that we are sure to die if left unattended.

We can choose to drink from a puddle or stand behind a tree, but with regard to salvation, we will choose poorly every time. We will choose the puddle or the tree instead of the fold! I was an atheist for decades, so I know. I was perfectly happy with my idols and my collections and my buzz. One simply cannot “choose†to believe. God must “prove†himself to a man. This He does by revelation:

no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Mat 11:27)

With regard to Israel and the choices that Jews made in the O.T, let me say this: I regard Israel not as a corollary of the church, but of an INDIVIDUAL Christian. This really changes things, if you’ll consider it:

-God Choose Israel; He chooses the Christian.
-God Delivers Israel from bondage; He delivers the Christian from bondage.
-God walks with Israel, He walks with the Christian.

See where I’m going with this?

God did not choose each individual Jew; He chose the entire Nation. There were sinful members of the nation who needed to be removed before the Nation entered the Promised Land, where the Nation was SURE to go.

This is also true of Christians; we have sinful “members†with us that God (He who makes men holy) is cleansing us of during our walk.

If you want to know what happened when Jesus came into your life, read about the Jew’s deliverance from Egypt, and their ensuing journey.

The Nation did not choose God. God chose the Nation. God DID play favorites. (sorry to tell ya.) He DID NOT choose the Egyptians, or the Philistines, or the Amalakites, or Ai, or…..

He only chose Israel, His beloved. Not because of anything inherently “good†in them, and certainly not because they were willing or pliable. A grumbling bunch of ingrates, JUST LIKE US!

This correlation is both true and important, and it all breaks down if we reduce it to merely: God choose all the Israelites who were willing. Without this corollary a whole bunch of scripture becomes useless. Consider Psalm 101 in which David writes:

I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD. (Psalm 101:8)

What does a Christian make of this? Are we to begin killing the wicked in the church or in our country? No, of course not. We are to slay the evil members within our personal selves, because each of us individually are like Israel.

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I see that this thread has taken a turn toward the value of works. I don’t mean to dig back too deeply into the thread to reply to this, but I had to crash early last night, and couldn’t respond to this like I wanted to.

It is true Grubal, that man has free will, but he cannot choose salvation. We are like sheep. Our will, although free, is so badly flawed that we are sure to die if left unattended.

We can choose to drink from a puddle or stand behind a tree, but with regard to salvation, we will choose poorly every time. We will choose the puddle or the tree instead of the fold! I was an atheist for decades, so I know. I was perfectly happy with my idols and my collections and my buzz. One simply cannot “choose†to believe. God must “prove†himself to a man. This He does by revelation:



no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Mat 11:27)

With regard to Israel and the choices that Jews made in the O.T, let me say this: I regard Israel not as a corollary of the church, but of an INDIVIDUAL Christian. This really changes things, if you’ll consider it:

-God Choose Israel; He chooses the Christian.
-God Delivers Israel from bondage; He delivers the Christian from bondage.
-God walks with Israel, He walks with the Christian.

See where I’m going with this?

God did not choose each individual Jew; He chose the entire Nation. There were sinful members of the nation who needed to be removed before the Nation entered the Promised Land, where the Nation was SURE to go.

This is also true of Christians; we have sinful “members†with us that God (He who makes men holy) is cleansing us of during our walk.

If you want to know what happened when Jesus came into your life, read about the Jew’s deliverance from Egypt, and their ensuing journey.

The Nation did not choose God. God chose the Nation. God DID play favorites. (sorry to tell ya.) He DID NOT choose the Egyptians, or the Philistines, or the Amalakites, or Ai, or…..

He only chose Israel, His beloved. Not because of anything inherently “good†in them, and certainly not because they were willing or pliable. A grumbling bunch of ingrates, JUST LIKE US!

This correlation is both true and important, and it all breaks down if we reduce it to merely: God choose all the Israelites who were willing. Without this corollary a whole bunch of scripture becomes useless. Consider Psalm 101 in which David writes:

I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD. (Psalm 101:8)

What does a Christian make of this? Are we to begin killing the wicked in the church or in our country? No, of course not. We are to slay the evil members within our personal selves, because each of us individually are like Israel.

-HisSheep

It's by God's Grace we are Saved, not by works, not even by our faith. Our faith is necessary in the Salvation process, but it's NOT what Saves us...

 

[HisSheep]

Don’t you care to take up any serious discussion at all, or just going to give me a drive by? I keep replying to your posts with substance and you ditch out. It’s irritating. Anyway, I’ll take this one up on substance as well:

It's by God's Grace we are Saved, not by works, not even by our faith. Our faith is necessary in the Salvation process, but it's NOT what Saves us...

empasis added

It's EXACTLY what saves us!

For by grace are ye saved through faith ... (Eph 2:8)

We ARE saved by faith. It's not OUR faith though, man! It is the Faith of Jesus!

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:22)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16)

it's a gift... Indeed, it is THE gift! It’s His and He gives it to us.

It is a gift, a true possessor of which would never, ever trade for anything in this passing world.

Thereby, it is eternal.

We are not only SAVED by faith, we are KEPT by faith!

By Jesus', mighty faith! Our faith is far too frail to be of any use.

-HisSheep

 

[childeye]

=HisSheep;577674]Don’t you care to take up any serious discussion at all, or just going to give me a drive by? I keep replying to your posts with substance and you ditch out. It’s irritating. Anyway, I’ll take this one up on substance as well:

empasis added

It's EXACTLY what saves us!

For by grace are ye saved through faith ... (Eph 2:8)

I would love to discuss some matters with you HisSheep. I like your postings but I was taken back by your saying we have a freewill. Morally speaking I don't believe that is true unless one has been revealed the Truth. Hence Jesus says the Truth will set you free. Also if I were grubal I would point out that faith alone does not save you, but grace through faith does. This may seem like a minor technicality, but given the scripture that says God has chosen the lowly rich in faith, it is hard to say that faith itself was not somehow provided by grace.

 

[ivdavid]

With regard to Israel and the choices that Jews made in the O.T, let me say this: I regard Israel not as a corollary of the church, but of an INDIVIDUAL Christian. This really changes things, if you’ll consider it:

-God Choose Israel; He chooses the Christian.
-God Delivers Israel from bondage; He delivers the Christian from bondage.
-God walks with Israel, He walks with the Christian.

I'd love to discuss more on this. Perhaps in the Bible study forum or in another thread here. It's beautiful to see how all that has happened in the OT was a template to show all that's actually happening now spiritually. It's again beautiful to see how the entire OT law's commandments is applicable even today, without resorting to dividing it into moral laws and ceremonial laws, and referring to the latter to explain away "we are no longer under the law". Lots to discuss on this, yes.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Don’t you care to take up any serious discussion at all, or just going to give me a drive by? I keep replying to your posts with substance and you ditch out. It’s irritating. Anyway, I’ll take this one up on substance as well:

empasis added

It's EXACTLY what saves us!

For by grace are ye saved through faith ... (Eph 2:8)

We ARE saved by faith. It's not OUR faith though, man! It is the Faith of Jesus!

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:22)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16)

it's a gift... Indeed, it is THE gift! It’s His and He gives it to us.

It is a gift, a true possessor of which would never, ever trade for anything in this passing world.

Thereby, it is eternal.

We are not only SAVED by faith, we are KEPT by faith!

By Jesus', mighty faith! Our faith is far too frail to be of any use.

-HisSheep

Are you trying to say, we are saved by the faith that Christ has in Himself or some special anointing of faith given to us. I don't quite understand what your talking about. Could you elaborate please ?

The verse you used, (Romans 3:22) was quoted wrong. It states,"even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe, For there is no difference;" This verse is not talking about, "the faith {of} Christ," but, the righteousness of God, through faith {"IN"} Jesus Christ, to All and on ALL who, believe"

We must put our faith "IN" Christ as our ONLY Lord and Savior. Notice the verse states,"to "ALL" and on "ALL" who believe." It's not talking about just a few believers chosen before the foundation of the world, but --ALL who will believe...

Ephesians 2:8,9--- For by Grace you have been saved through faith,(an individuals faith) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (here it's talking about "Grace" being the gift of God, not faith) not of works, lest anyone should boast. We are Saved "through" faith and Grace is not attained by works. It's all in the context of the interpretation...

 

[ivdavid]

Worldly good (or works of the flesh) are considered "filthy rags" according to the Bible. Therefore, they are neither good nor evil in the sight of God, and therefore, useless and not beneficial to us (in the eternal) or the kingdom of God. And is considered "dead works."

Is this a conclusive answer given by you or are you speculating that it could be this way? Does this form a part of your belief framework or are you yourself exploring this topic now? If it's a conclusion you've already arrived at and which forms a part of your belief framework, then I'll continue this discussion. Else, I'd refrain from further discussion till you can explore further and definitively make up your mind on this.

Assuming you are absolutely convinced in what you've stated (else, ignore what follows), I'd like to ask - how did you draw the conclusion that certain works of the flesh are neither good nor evil in the sight of God? By "filthy rags", you have taken it to mean "irrelevant" and I've taken it to mean "abhorring" - your connotation leads one to ignore these works as "non-beneficial" while my connotation leads one to treat these works as grave "sins" to be repented of.

You take "dead works" to mean "useless works", which carries a utilitarian, non-threatening connotation - while I take it to mean "works that result in my death instead of giving me the life that I hoped for" and this carries a frightful connotation. Hebrews 6:1 talks about repentance from "dead works" - what must I repent of them if there's nothing sinful in my having done them?

And again, if these works are neither good nor evil in the sight of God, how did it get this quoted "good work" tag? How did this happen and why do you use it this way?
As for me, I look at Romans 7:25 and see that the flesh serves the law of sin - quite indicting. Also, Romans 8:7-8 affirm that the flesh cannot but transgress God's law which is what we call sinning. How do you see this?
(Again note, if you are unsure of these things, you are not obligated to reply. I'd rather you be given space to read and learn from God than to be "persuaded" by man's reasoning.)

Even if an unbeliever gives alms to the poor (as you brought up) the act itself is NOT beneficial in the Spiritual realm, to that person, or towards the kingdom of God.

What exactly do you mean by 'not beneficial' here? Would you say that it's harmful then? I can't imagine an indifferent irrelevant status quo or no man's land here. Or do you mean that these acts cannot be counted as "good" and hence cannot be deemed righteous?

In the end analysis, fleshly man can do "good words" but they are ONLY beneficial in the world we live in. And of NO benefit in eternity. They are "useless."

Please contrast this with the spiritual man - what are the differences in a believer doing the same works? And what are the "useful benefits" in that case?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Is this a conclusive answer given by you or are you speculating that it could be this way? Does this form a part of your belief framework or are you yourself exploring this topic now? If it's a conclusion you've already arrived at and which forms a part of your belief framework, then I'll continue this discussion. Else, I'd refrain from further discussion till you can explore further and definitively make up your mind on this.

Assuming you are absolutely convinced in what you've stated (else, ignore what follows), I'd like to ask - how did you draw the conclusion that certain works of the flesh are neither good nor evil in the sight of God? By "filthy rags", you have taken it to mean "irrelevant" and I've taken it to mean "abhorring" - your connotation leads one to ignore these works as "non-beneficial" while my connotation leads one to treat these works as grave "sins" to be repented of.

You take "dead works" to mean "useless works", which carries a utilitarian, non-threatening connotation - while I take it to mean "works that result in my death instead of giving me the life that I hoped for" and this carries a frightful connotation. Hebrews 6:1 talks about repentance from "dead works" - what must I repent of them if there's nothing sinful in my having done them?

And again, if these works are neither good nor evil in the sight of God, how did it get this quoted "good work" tag? How did this happen and why do you use it this way?
As for me, I look at Romans 7:25 and see that the flesh serves the law of sin - quite indicting. Also, Romans 8:7-8 affirm that the flesh cannot but transgress God's law which is what we call sinning. How do you see this?
(Again note, if you are unsure of these things, you are not obligated to reply. I'd rather you be given space to read and learn from God than to be "persuaded" by man's reasoning.)


What exactly do you mean by 'not beneficial' here? Would you say that it's harmful then? I can't imagine an indifferent irrelevant status quo or no man's land here. Or do you mean that these acts cannot be counted as "good" and hence cannot be deemed righteous?


Please contrast this with the spiritual man - what are the differences in a believer doing the same works? And what are the "useful benefits" in that case?

Isaiah 64:6 states, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. If we believe our "good" works will not "save" us, (as is true) than we must assume (logically) that our "good" works are not beneficial before a righteous God who expects ONLY sinless perfection. And only His Son fits that bill. Therefore, God is not impressed with our (the unbelievers) "good works," Only after conversion, does one's "good works" bring forth any benefit to us or the Kingdom of God.

The fact that we sin is irrefutable. However, the fact that we have "free-will" is refutable as well (in my opinion, some will disagree) So when we stand before God as a person, sold unto sin, we stand before God (with all our sins) having heard the Word of Salvation, we STILL have the free-will to except or reject it. God does not force Himself on us.

The born again believer has the benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit who has sealed us and put us into the "Body of Christ." We henceforth are able to bring forth fruit/good works by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. This benefits the kingdom of God and will count for us individually (as rewards) in the afterlife.

We are ALL sinners. But we can be considered "lost sinners" without a Savior, or we can be considered a "Born again, Spirit filled sinner who's had his sins taken care of at the cross. And will spend eternity with Christ. We must make that choice, or not...Grace + faith + nothing---

 

[ivdavid]

Therefore, God is not impressed with our (the unbelievers) "good works,"

I don't exactly know how I'm to interpret the euphemisms you've used here. Is God not being impressed equivalent to His anger being kindled - or Him being indifferent? More to the point, will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good works" be judged by God or not? And if they are judged, will God approve of these thoughts and intents to be according to His will or not? If they are according to His will, we can conclude that these are indeed good works and if they are not according to His will, then we can conclude that these are also acts of sin in His sight.

The born again believer has the benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit who has sealed us and put us into the "Body of Christ." We henceforth are able to bring forth fruit/good works by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. This benefits the kingdom of God and will count for us individually (as rewards) in the afterlife.

I genuinely am unable to understand the difference between a believer's good works and an unbeliever's good works, as described by you. In both cases, man's freewill is presented a choice - a choice to do good or to not do good/do evil. In both cases, man chooses to do good in order for it to be described as a good work. W.r.t. man, where exactly is the difference in his works?

Grace + faith + nothing---

I guess I'll wait for your reply to this in the other thread.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I don't exactly know how I'm to interpret the euphemisms you've used here. Is God not being impressed equivalent to His anger being kindled - or Him being indifferent? More to the point, will the secret thoughts and intents behind these "good works" be judged by God or not? And if they are judged, will God approve of these thoughts and intents to be according to His will or not? If they are according to His will, we can conclude that these are indeed good works and if they are not according to His will, then we can conclude that these are also acts of sin in His sight.


I genuinely am unable to understand the difference between a believer's good works and an unbeliever's good works, as described by you. In both cases, man's freewill is presented a choice - a choice to do good or to not do good/do evil. In both cases, man chooses to do good in order for it to be described as a good work. W.r.t. man, where exactly is the difference in his works?


I guess I'll wait for your reply to this in the other thread.

Again, before a man is, regenerated, his "good works" do not please God. Obviously if his "good works were acceptable before God, then Works would play a part in, the Salvation plan. This is not the case. Works play no part in the Salvation process. It's, Grace+faith+nothing.

Due to the fact that, (before regeneration) mortal man is dead in his trespasses and sins. Therefore anything done in the flesh would be considered, "dead works" and not worthy of the "good works/fruits" that are manifested after regeneration (due to the indwelling Holy Spirit.)

Man's "good works" are of NO consequence (with God) before being "Born again Spiritually." The (worldly) good works only help to make man's live's a little simpler and more pleasant for the unbeliever, otherwise (worldly) good works are useless in the Spiritual realm. (the works do not please God) Faith pleases God...

You asked, "I genuinely am unable to understand the difference between a believer's good works and an unbeliever's good works, as described by you. In both cases, man's freewill is presented a choice - a choice to do good or to not do good/do evil. In both cases, man chooses to do good in order for it to be described as a good work. W.r.t. man, where exactly is the difference in his works?

1) The Unbeliever--- He's good works are self motivated and ruled over by his fallen nature. He can only perform (worldly works) that have no connection in the Spiritual realm. His "good works" are of no Spiritual significance. He doesn't bring glory to God by his "works."
2) The Believer---On the other hand, has the indwelling Holy Spirit and His presence creates, fruits/good works. And these "good works" bring glory to God.

 

[HisSheep]

Are you trying to say, we are saved by the faith that Christ has in Himself or some special anointing of faith given to us. I don't quite understand what your talking about. Could you elaborate please ?

Yes! Exactly, Grubal. It is not our faith at all, but Christ’s. Yes. “A special anointing of faith given to us.â€. I couldn’t have said it better myself! :p

The verse you used, (Romans 3:22) was quoted wrong. It states,"even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe, For there is no difference;" This verse is not talking about, "the faith {of} Christ," but, the righteousness of God, through faith {"IN"} Jesus Christ, to All and on ALL who, believe"

I quoted them correctly. Check the KJV. It is the faith OF Jesus that saves us. Please get this, it is so unbelievably important.

Here are two more verses in addition to (Rom 3:22) and (Gal 2:16), already cited:

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:9)

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (Gal 3:22)

We must put our faith "IN" Christ as our ONLY Lord and Savior. Notice the verse states,"to "ALL" and on "ALL" who believe." It's not talking about just a few believers chosen before the foundation of the world, but --ALL who will believe...

We have no valuable faith of our own to “put†anywhere. What weak faith we may have, we are sure to put in any number of wrong places. Like luck, superstition, idols, and what-have-you…

Ephesians 2:8,9--- For by Grace you have been saved through faith,(an individuals faith) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (here it's talking about "Grace" being the gift of God, not faith) not of works, lest anyone should boast. We are Saved "through" faith and Grace is not attained by works. It's all in the context of the interpretation...

Right there!… see it! “and that not of yourselves†See?! Oh, how I want you to see this, Grubal! The faith is NOT OF US! It is of Christ! He gives it to us. “It is THE gift of Godâ€! You just typed it, Brother!

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

And by the way Grubal, I agree with your points regarding good works. You are on the money.

There's just this one thing: We are saved so that we WILL do the works that God has for us to do.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

We have been re-born (He created us anew) so that we will do the works He has planned. (My paraphrase)

He doesn't save us just to get us saved… He saves us because He is going to use us to save others. Like a tapestry, He has it worked out like that.

He didn’t intervene on the Road to Demascus just to save Paul… Not hardly… He had plans for Paul. Paul was merely an instrument, and SO ARE WE!

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes! Exactly, Grubal. It is not our faith at all, but Christ’s. Yes. “A special anointing of faith given to us.â€. I couldn’t have said it better myself! :p



I quoted them correctly. Check the KJV. It is the faith OF Jesus that saves us. Please get this, it is so unbelievably important.

Here are two more verses in addition to (Rom 3:22) and (Gal 2:16), already cited:

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:9)

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (Gal 3:22)



We have no valuable faith of our own to “put†anywhere. What weak faith we may have, we are sure to put in any number of wrong places. Like luck, superstition, idols, and what-have-you…



Right there!… see it! “and that not of yourselves†See?! Oh, how I want you to see this, Grubal! The faith is NOT OF US! It is of Christ! He gives it to us. “It is THE gift of Godâ€! You just typed it, Brother!

-HisSheep

Would you agree that, initially, we must come to Christ with our, weak mustard seed faith (and believe with that) then, we are given Christ's "faith" by the Holy Spirit???

 

[ivdavid]

1) The Unbeliever--- He's good works are self motivated and ruled over by his fallen nature. He can only perform (worldly works) that have no connection in the Spiritual realm. His "good works" are of no Spiritual significance. He doesn't bring glory to God by his "works."
2) The Believer---On the other hand, has the indwelling Holy Spirit and His presence creates, fruits/good works. And these "good works" bring glory to God.

Beautifully put. Absolutely true.
Given what you've said here, would you personally call such works of an unbeliever to be "good" in the actual sense of the word or are you merely referring to it as the unbelievers would? Aren't works that detract from the glory of God considered sinful?

As for me, I'm simply stating that the works of the flesh are continually sinful and that the works of the Spirit are continually good- From what you've written, I'm guessing you'd agree with me. Am I right?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Beautifully put. Absolutely true.
Given what you've said here, would you personally call such works of an unbeliever to be "good" in the actual sense of the word or are you merely referring to it as the unbelievers would? Aren't works that detract from the glory of God considered sinful?

As for me, I'm simply stating that the works of the flesh are continually sinful and that the works of the Spirit are continually good- From what you've written, I'm guessing you'd agree with me. Am I right?

Thanks for the complement, but I'll still have to "disagree" with your position. A "worldly work" can be, good, bad, or indifferent. For instance, if an unbeliever gives money to the poor, is that sinful (or evil?) The Bible teaches us, to give to the poor. The difference between the unbeliever giving to the poor and the believer giving to the poor is, the believer is doing it with the indwelling Spirit and to the glory of God, and an act of obedience to the Word. Whereas, the unbeliever is doing the good work in the flesh which brings forth, no glory to God, it would be considered a, "dead work," but none the less, a work...