The intermediate state

[stranger]

OP The intermediate state - what can be reasonably inferred from scripture?

Between our physical death and the resurrection lies what is called the 'intermediate state.' I believe that there is sufficient evidence in scripture to support this.

The raising of Lazarus John 11:

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

The expressions ' Lazarus has fallen asleep' and 'Lazarus is dead' convey the same reality. 'Death' is decribed as being like 'natural sleep' and from the point of view of the living it is easy to imagine 'time' losing its significance. To us time keeps ticking away. Now what transpires from the 'moment of death' to the 'moment of resurrection' is what I call the intermediate state. I'm sure there are more formal definitions but this at least is a start.

Those who don't hold to the intermediate state are invited to bring there objections to this discussion.

blessings

 

[Bick]

Hi "stranger".

I believe describing "death" as "sleep" is a figure of speech, since as you suggest, when one is dead, it is if he were asleep; even though he wasn't.

Death is the opposite of life. To me, A most amazing miracle is when God resurrects the "dead in Christ", and changes our mortal bodies, making us alive to not die again, at the "rapture" of the church/body of Christ (1 Cor. 15).

In God's mind he see's us alive, knowing we will be resurrected. Just like he said to Moses, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," even though had been dead for years when God said this to Moses.

Many places in the OT we are told that, in death there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:
See: Psa. 6:5; 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Eccl. 8:5; Isa. 38:18.

 

[Fembot]

OP The intermediate state - what can be reasonably inferred from scripture?

Between our physical death and the resurrection lies what is called the 'intermediate state.' I believe that there is sufficient evidence in scripture to support this.

The raising of Lazarus John 11:

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

The expressions ' Lazarus has fallen asleep' and 'Lazarus is dead' convey the same reality. 'Death' is decribed as being like 'natural sleep' and from the point of view of the living it is easy to imagine 'time' losing its significance. To us time keeps ticking away. Now what transpires from the 'moment of death' to the 'moment of resurrection' is what I call the intermediate state. I'm sure there are more formal definitions but this at least is a start.

Those who don't hold to the intermediate state are invited to bring there objections to this discussion.

blessings

What do you think happens during this intermediate stage?
This is what I wrote in the What happens after we die? thread


He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:10


Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: "Death is swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
The sting of death is sin, 27 and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
1 Corinthians 15: 51-58

We may be asleep and still do things-it's called SLEEPWALKING. I'm kiddin'-really.

But, I must mention that we still have emotions and our brain IS active when we sleep as well. Isn't that obvious? So, it may be a state of calmness but not a state of non-existence. We are conscious when we sleep, we exist!

 

[Paidion]

In ordinary sleep, our brain is active, but there are some kinds of deep sleep in which it doesn't seem to be.

When I was first put to sleep in order to have surgery, I was a bit apprehensive, for I imagined my consciousness would sink into a deep, black hole. As I was lying down in the surgery room, I glanced up at the clock and saw that it was 1:00 Then I thought I heard sounds around me. I looked at the clock again and it was 3:00. Two hours had passed, but it seemed to me to be a few seconds! Where was I during that time? I had no memories, no dreams. I might as well have been dead for two hours!

This is the kind of sleep the intermediate state might be compared with --- not that the intermediate state is actual sleep, even of the deep kind. In the intermediate state, we are DEAD! And if God doesn't raise us to life, we'll STAY dead!

 

[stranger]

The raising of Lazarus John 11:

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Fembot wrote:

What do you think happens during this intermediate stage?

It seems to be a transistion from the present life to the next.

This is what I wrote in the What happens after we die? thread

He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:10

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: "Death is swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
The sting of death is sin, 27 and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
1 Corinthians 15: 51-58

We may be asleep and still do things-it's called SLEEPWALKING. I'm kiddin'-really.

But, I must mention that we still have emotions and our brain IS active when we sleep as well. Isn't that obvious? So, it may be a state of calmness but not a state of non-existence. We are conscious when we sleep, we exist!

In the above passage Paul says not all shall fall asleep, yet all shall be changed. This comes just at the end of the 'period' I am looking at. For instance if this life is 'A', and the the 'resurrected/glorified body' is 'C' how do we get from 'A' to 'C' ?

This is a summary... There seems to be two schools of thought emerging -- the dead cease to exist (and know nothing) or the dead exist and this is not a state of non-existence.

blessings

 

[stranger]

In ordinary sleep, our brain is active, but there are some kinds of deep sleep in which it doesn't seem to be.

When I was first put to sleep in order to have surgery, I was a bit apprehensive, for I imagined my consciousness would sink into a deep, black hole. As I was lying down in the surgery room, I glanced up at the clock and saw that it was 1:00 Then I thought I heard sounds around me. I looked at the clock again and it was 3:00. Two hours had passed, but it seemed to me to be a few seconds! Where was I during that time? I had no memories, no dreams. I might as well have been dead for two hours!

This is the kind of sleep the intermediate state might be compared with --- not that the intermediate state is actual sleep, even of the deep kind. In the intermediate state, we are DEAD! And if God doesn't raise us to life, we'll STAY dead!

Hello Paidion,

Yes I've had a similar experience in an operating theatre and recovery room. Quite right the Anesthetic is defined as a substance that causes lack of feeling or awareness. The lack of awareness of time is somehow different to a good night's sleep. My sister had an out of body experience during her operation which is remarkable - I believe that her account is not embellished.

Being dead is the nearest equivalent to having fallen asleep - as per Lazarus. And the 'dead' shall hear the voice of God....

blessings

 

[stranger]

Bick wrote:

I believe describing "death" as "sleep" is a figure of speech, since as you suggest, when one is dead, it is if he were asleep; even though he wasn't.

Death is the opposite of life. To me, A most amazing miracle is when God resurrects the "dead in Christ", and changes our mortal bodies, making us alive to not die again, at the "rapture" of the church/body of Christ (1 Cor. 15).

In God's mind he see's us alive, knowing we will be resurrected. Just like he said to Moses, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," even though had been dead for years when God said this to Moses.

Many places in the OT we are told that, in death there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:
See: Psa. 6:5; 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Eccl. 8:5; Isa. 38:18.

Hello,

The difficulty is finding the right figures of speech that essentially describes something that is commonly outside the experience and frame of reference of the living. That is why any construct has to be based upon what is revealed. As to testimonies of those who have come back to life -- in the histroy of humanity I think there are those who have been raised from the dead --- as Lazarus was but that was not the resurrection of Lazarus.

There are a lot of verses like the ones you listed and I have to say that death is a mystery that is central to the Christian faith.

From the examples of Lazarus, the widows son, and the little girl Jesus raised ( whom He claimed was only sleeping) I would suggest that people can be brought back to this life on the strength of these accounts alone.

The dead are capable of hearing the voice of God --- while they may not know anything as the old testament references seem to indicate.

The same is evident when God speaks to men when they are in a deep (sound) sleep 'then He opens the ears of men'. Job 33:14-16

blessings