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The Jewish Holocaust and Soma's thoughts.....

Hitler Was a Christian

The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism:




History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian deed. Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.

Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime. This is important information to take into consideration for I am privy to some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning Nazi Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism. 3) Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due to his Christianity.



Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.†His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.†-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God†in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.†Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.†(If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.†–Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.†-Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism



How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,†Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity.



How the Nazi Regime converted the people:

a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a “Programme†with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive†Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession...â€Â

b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.†– Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.

d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.

e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.

f) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Unsâ€Â. For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Usâ€Â.

g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich†that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.



Quotes from Hitler:

Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.†-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.†-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition†up until the 20th century.)

"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile†the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)

“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.â€Â–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.†–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.†–Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.†–Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

Quotes from Other Nazis about Hitler and Religion:

"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)
 
Re: holocaust

DivineNames said:
An argument I came across-

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq135.html


Matthew--and only Matthew--tells us that a profound event occurred after Jesus gave up the ghost and rose to heaven.

"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama zabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."(Matthew 27:45-53)

The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, writing during the second half of the first century AD, produced two major works: History of the Jewish War and Antiquities of the Jews, and he had not one word to say about this most extraordinary occurrence. Fifty days after the alleged event, Peter was giving a speech recorded in Acts 2, but said nothing about the saints rising. Paul, who spoke at great length (1 Corinthians 15) to convince his listeners that Jesus' resurrection had occurred, had nothing to say about it either; surely his listeners would have quite readily accepted the resurrection of Jesus if the resurrection of saints "appearing to many" were a fact.

The appearance of these bodies "unto many" must have been the sensation of a lifetime for the residents of Jerusalem. If this remarkable event actually happened, why did only Matthew report it? About twenty percent of the gospels is repetition so it is not as if New Testament writers did not like to repeat what others have written; repetition of the most mundane events occurs everywhere, so why didn't Mark, Luke, John, Peter, or Paul write about the dead bodies of the saints marching through Jerusalem, appearing unto many?

Also, how come Matthew doesn't think we should know the names of the saints that rose from their graves? Why doesn't he tell us with whom the bodies of the saints met, and what they said--assuming they said anything, and where they went after their appearance unto the many? Did the bodies of the saints dutifully return to their graves after a polite visit, or did they remain for years among the residents of Jerusalem?

Is there proof of veracity for this event that has so many unanswerable questions? We have an answer that might surprise you: It never happened!

How about this site, and do some real research about the event that the Jewish Christian Josephus recorded, Christ's Resurrection:

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/ntparallels.htm

as well as the homepage itself:

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/
 
Soma Sight, quite frankly you're a person who thinks he/she knows everything, when in fact you're devoid of all fact and logical conclusions. How the hell did you conclude that Fundamentalism made Nazism, when Hitler destroyed Churches? Or does your brilliant mind somehow leeway this with your fertile imagination using magic???

Why don't you do some real research, and just because you're dad was under Nazi oppression doesn't mean you get the say on what's what with Hitler and nazism.

As for your long philosophical essay:

Please read these quotes, wherever they are, wherever I previously posted them, again:

Was Hitler a Christian?
By John Baskette - but the information came from Marty Helgesen in a soc.religion.christian post.
The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

If you still think Hitler was a Christian, fundamentalist moreso, then I'm not gonna bother looking at this thread anymore.
 
Re: holocaust

DivineNames said:
protos said:
Haha! Christ fulfilled all the prophecies. Did you know that the Jewish Messiah must have come prior to 70 A.D.? Do you know that Daniel and Isaiah both calculated the exact year of Christ's coming when He was born???? What more do you need?That's the sign God gave them. How are they supposed to recognize their Messiah??????


In fact, Jesus did next to nothing to fulfill what Jews regard as genuine Messianic prophecies. It is also worth pointing out that Jesus (a) wasn't anointed, and (b) didn't have Davidic lineage.

Umm....there's a boundary between objective evidence and your opinions:

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/ ... ecies.html

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r004.html

Maybe next time you read those jewish discussions, you should mention how in their books the prophet Daniel and Isaiah give the exact year of Christ's coming, and how it says in The Old Testament that the Scepter in their Temple won't depart until the Messiah comes. By 70 A.D. that temple was in ruins, so please do at least a little research.

If Jesus hadn't fulfilled even ONE of the Jewish prophecies, Christianity would have been ridiculed to disexistence in its infancy, so please, use reason, God's 3rd greatest gift.

EDIT: Jesus' genealogy: Matthew 1:1-16 as well as the other gospels. The genealogies were stored in the Temple at Jerusalem. The records were destroyed in the Jewish War of 68-70 A.D. If Jesus hadn't fulfilled this prophecy Christianity would have never started.

By the way Divine, have you ever done anything wrong?
 
Soma-Sight said:
Greetings Soma (and others):

As you may know, the issue of the reality of an eternal hell has been roundly discussed here at 123. I joined this board having an unexamined belief that the lost will indeed suffer forever in hell.

I am now convinced that this is not the case. Even apart from non-scriptural arguments, the scriptures themselves do not, on my understanding, speak of an eternal hellfire even though this is widely believed as you are no doubt are aware.

I know this sounds deferential, but perhaps you (and others) might want to read some of those threads and decide for yourself which arguments carried the day regarding the fate of the lost.

PRAISE GOD!!!

THE FORUMS HAVE HELPED AT LEAST ONE PERSON SEE THE LIGHT OF GOD'S LOVE RATHER THAN THE DEVIL DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENT!

So, the Bible's evil now? It's actually irrelevant whether you believe in the doctrine or not, but it could show whether you believe in the biblical Christ or a Christ made up in your mind. If you think Christ was describing the grave and a dreamless sleep as a never-ending fire where the worm never dies, then good luck to you. It has become obvious to me that you believe whatever suits your taste, so I'm not going to even respond to any of your comments anymore.

As for the person who now believes in the heretical doctrine of the destruction of the soul, think about this: How can God be just, if the unrepentant don't get what they deserve? Does a judge let a criminal loose out of the goodness of his heart? No. Please read the Bible. Start at the quote in my sig.

Why don't you look at what the early christians had to say on the matter:

http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm

If you continue in your ignorance, Soma-Sight, nothing will spare you from God's Eternal Judgment, because you're not worshipping the God of the Bible, but one that you've invented in your mind to suit you.
 
Re: holocaust

einstein said:
It's worse than that. If you follow fundamentalist Christian teaching you have a situation where Jews who remain Jewish in their faith go to hell after being gassed to death by Nazis (most of whom would be Catholic or Lutheran) who then go to heaven because they accepted Jesus is their hearts! :crying:

No Christian participated in the holocaust. Catholics or Lutherans are not automatically Christian. They must behave as such to deserve the title.
 
So, the Bible's evil now? It's actually irrelevant whether you believe in the doctrine or not, but it could show whether you believe in the biblical Christ or a Christ made up in your mind. If you think Christ was describing the grave and a dreamless sleep as a never-ending fire where the worm never dies, then good luck to you. It has become obvious to me that you believe whatever suits your taste, so I'm not going to even respond to any of your comments anymore.

There is evil in the Bible yes!

No one can deny that Saul killing babies is evil!

As far as eternal torment in hell doctrine.

Many denoms dispute this doctrine of devils and not all Christians in the early forming Church or the current existing one agree with is either.

SDA - Soul death
Universalism - Hell as trial by fire
 
Re: holocaust

protos said:
EDIT: Jesus' genealogy: Matthew 1:1-16 as well as the other gospels. The genealogies were stored in the Temple at Jerusalem. The records were destroyed in the Jewish War of 68-70 A.D. If Jesus hadn't fulfilled this prophecy Christianity would have never started.

The gospel genealogies are irrelevant. Tribal affiliation goes only through the biological father in Judaism.
 
Re: holocaust

protos said:
Maybe next time you read those jewish discussions, you should mention how in their books the prophet Daniel and Isaiah give the exact year of Christ's coming

Could you explain the Isaiah prediction?

And with regard to the prophecy in Daniel, I think it talks about two anointed one's, but does it mention the Messiah?

I think Jesus used that prophecy for the destruction of the second temple. (One of the two ways in which Jews interpret Daniel 9, I think.) Did he also use it for himself in some way? What scripture?
 
Re: holocaust

protos said:
DivineNames said:
In fact, Jesus did next to nothing to fulfill what Jews regard as genuine Messianic prophecies. It is also worth pointing out that Jesus (a) wasn't anointed, and (b) didn't have Davidic lineage.

Umm....there's a boundary between objective evidence and your opinions:

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/ ... ecies.html

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r004.html



Did Jesus fulfill lots of prophecies?


Messianic Prophecies Refuted

http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... gendeu.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... judjob.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... s2ps45.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... 55song.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... s6is48.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... 49is61.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanak ... jermal.htm
 
Re: holocaust

protos said:


I will quote a Jewish response to the claim that Jesus fulfilled lots of prophecies-



Missionary Types and Shadows

Missionaries rely heavily on very non-literal readings of the Hebrew Bible. They call these “types†and “foreshadows.†Jewish Scripture, we are told, “points to Jesus†even when the text is plainly not discussing Jesus. Is this missionary claim at all justified?

This missionary method is not surprising, as the plain meaning of Scripture (pshat) does not support the missionary agenda. Even missionaries concede prophecy fulfillment is generally not based on pshat:

Don't fall into the mistake of assuming that every time a New Testament writer cites an Old Testament text and applies it to Jesus (even if a "fulfillment" formula is followed), it must have been a direct/literal prediction coupled with a direct/literal fulfillment. In most cases by far, the New Testament takes a broader approach to the subject of messianic prophecy (e.g., typology, thematic parallels, corporate solidarity, historical correspondences/analogies, etc.).
(http://www.churchinfocus.org/mod...le&sid=26)

The Biblical Approach to Prophecy

The missionary approach to prophecy is alien to the Biblical view. When Jewish Scripture identifies prophecy as fulfilled, we see a direct one-to-one correspondence between prophecy and fulfillment. We present an example of Biblical prophecy to show how it works:

"Joshua caused [the people] to swear at that time saying, 'Cursed before G-d is the man who rises up and builds this city Jericho. With his firstborn son he will lay its foundations, and with his youngest he will set up its gates' (Joshua 6:26)."

We read of the fulfillment: "In his days, Hiel the Beth-elite built Jericho; with Abiriam, his firstborn, he laid its foundations; and with Segub, his youngest, he set up its doors, according to the word of G-d He spoke through Joshua son of Nun (I Kings 16:34)."

We see that Biblical prophecy is directly predictive, the opposite of the missionary method.

Examples Where Jesus Does Not Fulfill the Pshat of Scripture

a. Matthew 2:15 claims that when Jesus left Egypt he fulfilled “Out of Egypt I called My son (Hosea 11:1).†The beginning of that verse reads, “When Israel was a child I loved him and…†Hosea calls Israel, not Jesus, G-d’s son. Hosea is not making a prediction about anyone but remembering Israel’s exodus long ago.

Hosea continues to teach us that this son of G-d is not so righteous after all. “They sacrificed to the Baalim, and burnt incense to graven images (11:2).†Is Jesus a personification of idol worship? Missionaries do a cut-and-paste job since their types and shadows ignore pshat.

b. Immanuel is clearly born in King Ahaz’s time, centuries before Jesus. Isaiah predicts to King Ahaz that a young woman will give birth to Immanuel (7:14). Isaiah tells Ahaz, “Before the child shall know to reject evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread [Rezin and Pekah- see 7:1-2] shall be forsaken (7:16).†The downfall of these two kings quickly took place (II Kings 15:29-30, 16:9).

Missionaries honest enough to admit the timing of Immanuel’s birth nevertheless insist it is a foreshadowing of another “Immanuelâ€Â, namely Jesus. (Missionaries do not dare say the “first†Immanuel was born of a virgin, but we will not let ourselves be disturbed by such facts right now)

c. Zechariah 11:12-13 reads, “Then I said to them, ‘If you think it good, pay me my wages; if not, don’t.’ So they weighed out my wages, thirty shekels of silver. G-d said to me, ‘Cast it to the treasurer of the Temple, which I have divested of them.†Missionaries claim this foreshadows Judas’ betrayal of Jesus for thirty shekels (Matthew 26:15) as Judas threw the money into the Temple (27:5)

Zechariah never says the transaction predicts a future event. Pshat indicates no “prophecy†to be “fulfilled.â€Â

d. With this interpretive license, we should not be surprised when missionaries actually admit that the New Testament misquotes Biblical verses. Psalms 40:7 reads, “Sacrifice and meal offering you do not desire, ears You have opened for me.†The New Testament misquotes it as “a BODY you have prepared for me (Hebrews 10:5).â€Â

“There’s no real difficulty here since the writer of Hebrews views Psalms 40:7 as typologically referring to Christ rather than as a literal or direct messianic prophecy.â€Â
(http://www.churchinfocus.org/mod...le&sid=25)

Supposedly, Psalms “proves†that Jesus “fulfills†Psalms 40 and that crucifixion atones for mankind. The pshat suggests otherwise: obedience, listening to G-d is greater than sacrifice, similar to "I desire kindness, not sacrifice, and knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings (Hosea 6:6)."

Missionaries assume without textual basis that Psalms 40 is a prediction, and (contrary to pshat) posit the superiority of a particular sacrifice above all else. Since the altered version in Hebrews 10:5 allegedly gives the “true sense†of Psalms, it supposedly does not matter that Psalms 40:7 never mentions a body.

e. Missionaries press even further, claiming that Jesus fulfilled Biblical verses that do not exist! Matthew 2:23 quotes (if that is the right word) “He shall be called a Nazarene.†There is no such verse in the Hebrew Bible! Missionaries say this is no problem. Since Isaiah refers to Messiah figuratively as a netzer [shoot] (11:1), Jesus “fulfilled†the invented words “he shall be called Nazarene†by going to Nazareth. In fact the city of Nazareth is never mentioned in Jewish Scriptures.

In these and other cases, missionaries claim it does not matter whether Jesus fulfilled the pshat of Jewish Scripture. He fulfilled these prophecies anyway.

Unverified and Unverifiable Interpretations

How does one test the validity of types and shadows? Missionaries cherish them because THERE IS NO STANDARD OF VERIFICATION. How can they determine whether Scripture ever intended types and shadows, and which verses are intended as such and which are not? Given the countless “type and shadow†meanings one can read into a text, how can they know which meaning is meant? Claims that are not testable are worthless.

Missionaries fail to address other legitimate possibilities. What if Hosea is speaking only of Israel as G-d’s son? Suppose Isaiah is speaking of one Immanuel, as pshat indicates. Perhaps Zechariah’s acceptance of thirty shekels does not predict any other thirty-shekel transaction. Nothing indicates that types and shadows are absolute truth. Yet missionaries say they are solid enough to dogmatically identify Messiah and send the unconvinced to hell!

Circular Reasoning of Missionaries

Missionaries would respond that their types and shadows are valid because Jesus and his disciples taught them.

Here we arrive at the circular reasoning of missionaries. The types and shadows are true because they come from Jesus. But how do we establish the credibility of Jesus? Easy- he fulfilled so many types and shadows!

Missionary Double Standard

The perceptive reader will notice the double standard by which missionaries operate. Do they apply the same poetic license in interpreting the New Testament as they do to the Hebrew Bible? Not at all! They take the New Testament very seriously. Anyone claiming to find “types and shadows†in the New Testament is labeled a Mormon, Moonie, etc. (Certainly missionaries reject Charles Manson’s claim that the New Testament hints to the Beatles)

In recent years, however, missionaries have accused Judaism of practicing a double standard. They refer to Midrash- Rabbinic homiletics, which supplement the pshat of Scripture. Missionaries ask why they must be held accountable to the pshat given the existence of Jewish Midrash.

According to Moshe Yosef Koniuchowsky, Hebrew-Christian, counter-missionaries are guilty “by refusing to make allowance, and give the New Testament writers the same liberty and literary freedom in using Scripture to portray truth as they do the writers and authors of the Tanach [Hebrew Bible] (Messianic Believer’s First Response Handbook, p. 7).â€Â

As we shall see, Midrash and missionary prooftexting are not at all comparable.

There are at least five critical differences between Jewish Midrash and missionary types and shadows.

a. Midrash is used for Midrash- homiletic meanings. Missionaries use types and shadows to establish pshat.

There is no such thing as a Midrashic fulfillment of a prophecy.

What is a Midrash? According to Moses Mielziner in Introduction to the Talmud, “Where the Midrash does not concern legal enactments and provisions, but merely inquires into the meaning and significance of the laws or where it only uses the words of Scripture as a vehicle to convey a moral teaching or a religious instruction and consolation, it is called ‘Midrash Agadah’ Interpretation of the Agadah, homiletical interpretation.†(Emphasis mine) messiahtruth.com/midrash.html).â€Â

Nachmanides, in a thirteenth-century disputation with the Church said, "We have a third book called Midrash, meaning sermons. It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it (Disputation at Barcelona, p. 7)."

In a sermon, the speaker can relate a verse to person X without person X being the actual subject of the verse. The same is true for Midrash.

This is why the Talmud relates the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 with Moses, even though Isaiah is speaking of a future event. Likewise the Rabbis homiletically link Isaiah 53 with the Messiah. Neither is meant literally. In general Midrash is not meant to be taken literally (Maimonides: Introduction to Mishnah Commentary).

Rabbi Moshe Shulman explains in What is a Midrash? :

“In Sotah 14a, Isaiah 53 is interpreted as referring to Moses. The ancient Jewish view and that which appears continually in the words of the commentators (as we will discuss later) are that the Servant is Israel who is called Servant throughout Isaiah. Clearly Isaiah when he was prophesying was talking of someone in the future and not Moses who had been in the past, so the question is what lessons are the Rabbis trying to teach by relating Moses to this chapter, and why specifically to this chapter. We all know that Moses was the greatest of the prophets and was known as the 'servant of G-d'. Sotah is showing us that many of the great qualities that Moses had, are likewise there in the Servant, Israel. So, for example, where the servant of Isaiah prays for sinners, so Moses prayed for those who were guilty of the sin of the golden calf, and effected their atonement. By so doing the Midrash allows us to look at the greatness of Moses, and his work
… The first is that many times verses that deal with categories of people are used to apply to individuals. It's pretty much like the concept of set inclusion. Something is a member of the set, and then it has all the properties that the set has… Since the Jewish understanding is that Isaiah is about Israel (and specifically the righteous of Israel), any individual of exceptional personality could be compared to some of the verses there with valid results. (messiahtruth.com/midrash.html).â€Â

To better understand the nature of Midrash, let us look at an actual Midrash:

“From the beginning of the word’s creation, the Holy One foresaw the deeds of the righteous and wicked. This is like what is written, ‘For G-d knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall become lost (Psalms 1:6).’ AND THE LAND WAS CHAOS AND VOID- these are the deeds of the wicked-G-D SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT- these are the deeds of the righteous. But I would not know which of them G-d desires- the deeds of the righteous or of the wicked. But when it is written, G-D SAW THE LIGHT THAT IT WAS GOOD [I conclude] He desires the deeds of the righteous and not the deeds of the wicked (Genesis Rabbah 2:5).â€Â

This passage is neither historical nor predictive. Obviously it does not mean human actions took place in the beginning of creation. It is not a prophecy to be “fulfilledâ€Â. The Midrash is teaching a moral lesson: human action is analogous (not identical) to light and darkness, but goodness is
G-d’s purpose in creation

Missionaries try to have their cake and eat it too. They use non-pshat methods to get pshat results. They do not merely say that Jesus is homiletically connected to Immanuel; they claim he is Immanuel, period. They do not simply relate Jesus homiletically to the Passover Lamb; they maintain he is actually the fulfillment of this legal datum.

b. Midrash reveals deeper meaning of an existing religion. New Testament needs types and shadows to claim its religion even exists.

Judaism does not rely on Midrash to establish there is such a thing as Judaism. It’s not as if Judaism took a scripture of someone’s religion and then demonstrated through “Midrash†that Judaism alone is the true successor to that religion. Were that the case, dismissal of Judaism would be entirely justified.

From the Written Law the practices and essential beliefs of Judaism are known. While the details of Biblical commandments are absent, there is no doubt for which commandments a Jew is responsible. As for beliefs, Maimonides' famous formulation of the Thirteen Fundamentals of Judaism is all based on Scriptural verses he cites.


c. Jewish Midrash supplements pshat. Types and shadows replace pshat.

Basic Jewish doctrines, found in pshat of Scripture, are denied by missionaries. These include: the binding character of the commandments, their ongoing validity, practice of the commandments brings righteousness and salvation, commandments can be kept, G-d is not a man, G-d is immutable, the exclusive chosenness of the Jewish people, the Messiah inherits David’s throne solely through paternal birth line, etc.

The Rabbis have a rule that “Scripture does not depart from the plain meaning (Shabbat 63a).†Midrashic interpretation reveals deeper meanings but does not reject pshat. By contrast, types and shadows are employed to deny basic Biblical doctrines.

d. Jewish Midrash is rooted in an oral transmission from Sinai. The New Testament does not even claim to be rooted in an unbroken tradition going back to the revelation of the Torah.

Judaism posits that that two Torahs were revealed at Mt. Sinai: Written Law and Oral Law. The existence of the Oral Law is evident from the Written Law itself. It is clear from Scripture that (1) G-d is just and (2) G-d wants the Law to be obeyed. Yet we find that the Written Law simply does not tell us what to do. The commandments are stated in vague generalities, without the numerous details found in every respectable legal system.

Leviticus 23:40 commands taking the “fruit of the tree of splendor (pri etz hadar)†on the Feast of Tabernacles. Pri etz hadar is a botanically meaningless statement even to Hebrew-speaking scientists. There is no clue which species is mentioned without a clarifying Oral Law.

The Passover holiday begins on the fifteenth day of the first month (Leviticus 23:6). To identify this day requires knowing when is the first day of that month, which the Written Law does not say.

Exodus 12:15 bids us to eat matza on seven days of Passover, while Deuteronomy 16:8 says to eat it for six days. Only the Oral Law can reconcile the contradiction.

It is prohibited to leave one’s "place" on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29). Does this mean one’s house, property, neighborhood, city or state? Only the Oral Law tells us.

It is obvious to any objective reader that one cannot know how to perform the Biblical commandments based on Written Law alone. G-d must have given an Oral Law to Moses to explain what the Written Law means. It follows that Moses would transmit this Oral Law to his disciples, who then taught it to future generations of Sages.

These Sages have taught us that Oral Torah encompasses both Halacha (law) and also Midrash. Midrash is also given at Sinai (Yerushalmi Peah 2:6). If there is an Oral Torah, only in the hands of Jewish Sages, why not believe those responsible for transmitting it that Oral Torah contains Midrash too?

This does not mean that every Midrashic statement was said verbatim at Sinai. It does mean that midrashic concepts and methodology are essentially Sinaitic.

The charge that the Sages basically falsified the Oral Torah is incoherent. An unwritten tradition by definition is only known from the Sages who transmit it. No outsider can claim to know the Oral Law better than those who teach it in the first place.

e. The Rabbis of Midrash have Biblical credibility. Deuteronomy 17 requires obeying them in matters of law. If G-d trusts them, we can too. Nothing in Jewish Scripture tells us to trust the New Testament writers.

“If a matter for judgment is too difficult for you, between blood and blood, between verdict and verdict, between plague and plague, even matters of controversy in your gates; you shall go up the place that the L-rd your G-d shall choose. You shall come to the priests, the Levites and to the judge that shall be in those days. You shall ask and they will tell you the word of judgment. You shall do according to the word that they will tell you, from the place that G-d will choose, and keep the law according to what they teach you. According to the Torah that they teach you and according to the judgment that they say to you, you must do. Do not turn aside from the word that they tell you, neither right nor left. And the man that does willfully, not listening to the priest standing to serve L-rd your, G-d or to the judge; that man shall die, and you shall remove the evil from your midst (Deut. 17:8-12).â€Â

This passage clearly establishes that the Jewish judiciary has authority in matters of Jewish law. “The place that G-d shall choose†means, throughout the Bible, the Sanctuary site. The judiciary that sat there is the Sanhedrin.

Midrash is not from a separate group with separate ideas. The masters of Midrash are the same Talmudic Rabbis who themselves were members of the divinely ordained judiciary known as the Sanhedrin, together with their students. We are obligated to follow this judiciary. There is no good reason not to believe these same Rabbis when they present Midrash as valid and authentic.

Establishing Jesus’ Credentials

We would like to ask those who preach types and shadows: how could Jesus’ credential have been established in the first place? The New Testament had not been written yet during early first century. Jews did not then know missionary types and shadows. Their only basis to judge was the plain words of the Hebrew Bible. Assuming the missionary viewpoint, how could those Jews have possibly known what to look for? How can the credibility of a would-be messiah depend on types and shadows? Yet Jesus is portrayed in the Gospels as demanding people’s obedience early in his career!


“Didn’t Jesus Fulfill Pshat Also?â€Â

Missionaries may also deny their dependence on types and shadows by pointing to certain Biblical prophecies that they claim were fulfilled by Jesus according to pshat. Space does not permit a discussion of the mistranslations; misquotations and out-of context readings missionaries use to make such claims. No one has ever shown this writer one prophecy that Jesus clearly and literally fulfilled.

One point is in order, however. It would be disingenuous of missionaries to make such an argument! The missionary enterprise does not generally make distinctions between pshat and non-pshat fulfillments. Websites and missionaries on the beat, that claim Jesus fulfilled 100, 200, even 300 prophecies present an undifferentiated package. Were they to scale down their list to alleged pshat fulfillments, it would be an embarrassingly small list. We quote again from Church in Focus:
In most cases by far, the New Testament takes a broader approach to the subject of messianic prophecy (e.g., typology, thematic parallels, corporate solidarity, historical correspondences/analogies, etc.) (emphasis mine).

We appreciate Church In Focus advising fellow missionaries to practice greater honesty: Evangelicals must seek to reform their messianic apologetics with a greater appreciation for the different ways in which the New Testament cites the Old and with a tad less sensationalism in how Jesus' messiahship is presented to unbelieving Jews (e.g., such tract titles as "300 Prophecies Fulfilled in One Day!" or "70 Prophecies Fulfilled at the Cross!").

We are not optimistic that their advice will be heeded. Missionaries must inflate their own claims by conflating pshat with non-pshat.

Summary: Missionaries rely on types and shadows because they know pshat does not justify their beliefs. Types and shadows fly in the face of how Biblical prophecy works, and actually contravenes the meaning of Scripture. The New Testament writers present unverifiable homiletics. These men have no Scriptural basis for their authority and credibility as Biblical interpreters. Analogies to Jewish Midrash have no validity. Missionaries cannot afford to dispense with types and shadows because they aim to promote a false messiah.


http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfr ... 1924.topic
 
Re: holocaust

protos said:
and how it says in The Old Testament that the Scepter in their Temple won't depart until the Messiah comes. By 70 A.D. that temple was in ruins, so please do at least a little research.


Genesis 49:10 - The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff, until Shiloh come, and to him shall gather the nations.

For the Jewish understanding of this-
http://www.messiahtruth.com/genealogy.html
 
protos said:
As for the person who now believes in the heretical doctrine of the destruction of the soul, think about this: How can God be just, if the unrepentant don't get what they deserve?


Obviously there is an issue at stake as to whether people actually would ever deserve eternal torment. The question you have asked rather looks to commit the fallacy of question-begging.
 
Re: holocaust

protos said:
DivineNames said:
protos said:
Some jewish kids were killed (a lot sadly), they would go to Heaven.


If children that are killed all go to heaven, shouldn't we be slaughtering children for their own good? To make sure they don't burn in hell?


It is obvious why Christians come out with this stuff about children going to heaven if they die, because even they realize that a God who sends "unbelievers" to the fires of hell is an evil God, so they will try and deny the most distasteful consequence. And often, in support of this maneuver, they will make the laughable claim that, "We know God will judge people fairly".

No you shouldn't kill little children because they will grow up to be believers and it is a heinous sin.

So God is evil because He sends people to Hell? Yeah, so I guess a judge is evil too because he sentences people to prison for life. I'm sure that atheism would have provided for us an excellent system for justice :roll:

This is the last resort for atheists; philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Disbelievers go to Hell because they choose to reject God. God gives them what they want, and thus he gives them a place where there is no God. By definition, a place where God isn't, is a place of misery, pain, and torture. So you just answered your own question.

Ok, there are so many innacuracies in this post I'll try to give you a hand here.

'No you shouldn't kill little children because they will grow up to be believers and it is a heinous sin.'

His point was that by killing the child while it is young you will ensure it's passage into heaven rather than allow it to risk going to hell. (And what if that child does not grow up to be a believer?) Should we bomb muslim orphanages because they will probably grow up to be muslims and thus go to hell, be killing them it would let the children go to heaven?

So God is evil because He sends people to Hell? Yeah, so I guess a judge is evil too because he sentences people to prison for life. I'm sure that atheism would have provided for us an excellent system for justice

The court system is atheist, it is a secular institution that rewards wrong doing with a punishment proportional to the crime, and thus is considered just.

As in any persons life they can only commit a finite amount of sins, thus a just system would reward them with a punishment proportional to their crime. Dogma states that any crime merits an unlimited punishment, thus this makes God either unjust or Hell ceases to exist in a punishment capacity. This brings us to the question of what it is for then?

What is Hell for if not for punishment? People who follow alternate philosophies and religions do not do so because they turn their back on Jesus, they do it for the same reason you believe in Jesus, because they have faith in their beliefs. As such it is not their choice to be tortured eternally, and even if they actively did not wish to go to heaven, why would God make the only alternative infinite torture? Surely there should be a middle ground somewhere?

Philosophical mumbo jumbo? God gave us brains, I'm sure they're not just there for decoration. While philosophy is often complicated and sometimes hard to get your head around, this does not make it 'mumbo jumbo'.
 
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