[ Young Earth ] the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken..

[jasoncran]

yes the sages say that genesis account of seven days is literal. thoughts on why they would?@ jeff im posting this as those here should know why the sages and teachers of ancient isreal by oral traditions did take genesis literally.

 

[Ambrose]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Perhaps because if it is not taken literally you can morph the story into anything you want? I don't know for sure but i am just taking a good guess. I would like to learn exactly why myself

Or perhaps because in those ancient times the genesis account really was not that old. The bible passages would actually still be occuring.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Perhaps because if it is not taken literally you can morph the story into anything you want? I don't know for sure but i am just taking a good guess. I would like to learn exactly why myself

simple. in exodus its said to moses. for in six days GOD created the heavens and the earth.. the shabat is based on this idea. theres more on this that to the hebrews is relavant. they also say that if one doubts the first part(in the beggining god created) that hebrew is without his torah for the very claim for isreal's right to claim her land.

 

[Ambrose]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

simple. in exodus its said to moses. for in six days GOD created the heavens and the earth.. the shabat is based on this idea. theres more on this that to the hebrews is relavant. they also say that if one doubts the first part(in the beggining god created) that hebrew is without his torah for the very claim for isreal's right to claim her land.

I thought you might say that. Though since this is written in hebrew too one might translate this into age but it simply does not fit into the sentence.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

man i wish i could go into the vav thing but i must read up on it because the light and darkness being mention has revelance.

 

[reba]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Sages | Define Sages at Dictionary.com


noun 1. a profoundly wise person; a person famed for wisdom. 2. someone venerated for the possession of wisdom, judgment, and experience.

The Hebrew Letter Vav. ... The sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called "Vav" (pronounced "vahv") and has the sound of "v" as in "vine." Correct?

Sometimes ol buddy i need a dictionary to read you! :p

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Sages | Define Sages at Dictionary.com


noun 1. a profoundly wise person; a person famed for wisdom. 2. someone venerated for the possession of wisdom, judgment, and experience.

The Hebrew Letter Vav. ... The sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called "Vav" (pronounced "vahv") and has the sound of "v" as in "vine." Correct?

Sometimes ol buddy i need a dictionary to read you! :p

ah no, i know this it has to do with the idea of light and dark. vav is the light and when the book of genesis mentions it means that when god shine on it it was good and it responded when it was dark there was no activity..

vav symbolises this.

lol. and this video says it

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/kabbala_toons/default_cdo/aid/700534/jewish/The-Vav.htm

pull it down from above! we grab hold of God and draw Him and he protects us.

and the vav is in the name of our LORD its YHWH. the fourth or second if you are hebrew. is the letter(the W). awesome aint it.

 

[stovebolts]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Jason,

I copied this out of the books I lent you, and it show a very Jewish way of thinking on creation.

Now listen to the correct and clear explanation of the verse in its simplicity. The Holy One, blessed be He, created all things from absolute non-existence. Now we have no expression in the sacred language for bringing forth something from nothing other than the word bara (created). Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having the power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by the Greeks hyly (matter). After the hyly, He did not create anything, but he formed and made things with it, and from this hyly He brought everything into existence and clothed the forms and put them into a finished condition.

Know that the heavens and all that is in them consists of one substance, and the earth and everythign this is in it consists of one substance. The Holy One, blessed be He, created these two substances from nothing; they alone were created, and everything else was constructed from them.

This substance, which the Greeks called hyly, is called in the sacred language tohu, the word being derived from the expression of the Sages: “betohei (when the wicked bethinks himself) of his doings in the past.†If a person wants to decide a name for it [this primordial matter], he may bethink himself, change his mind and call it by another name since it has taken on no form to which the name should be attached. The form which this substance finally takes on is called in the sacred language bohu, which is a composite word made up of the two words bo hu (in it there is [substance]). This may be compared to the verse, Thou art not able 'asohu' (to perform it, Exodus 18:18) in which case the word asohu is missing a vav and an aleph [and I is a composite of the two words] aso hu. It is this which Scripture says, And he shall stretch over it the line of 'tohu' (confusion) and the stones of 'bohu.' (Isaiah 34:11) [The tohu in Hebrew or the hyly in Greek] is the line by which the craftsman delineates the plan of his structure and that which he hopes to make. This is derived from the expression, Kavei (Hope) unto G-d (Psalms 27:14). The stones are forms in the building. Similarly it is written, They are acconted by Him as nought and 'tohu,' (Isaiah 40:17) as tohu comes after nothingness and there is nothing yet in it.

So the Rabbis have also said in Sefer Yetzirah: “He created substance from tohu, and made that which was nothing something.â€

They have furthermore said in the Midrash of Rabbi Nechunya ben Hakanah: “Rabbi Berachyah said: “What is the meaning of the verse, And the earth was 'tohu' (without form) 'vavohu' (and void)? What is the meaning of the word “was?†It had already been tohu. And what is tohu? It is a thing which astonishes people. It was then turned into bohu. And what is bohu? It is a thing which has substance, as it is written, [bohu is a composite of the two words] “bo hu†(in it there is subtance)v

 

[stovebolts]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Sages | Define Sages at Dictionary.com


noun 1. a profoundly wise person; a person famed for wisdom. 2. someone venerated for the possession of wisdom, judgment, and experience.

The Hebrew Letter Vav. ... The sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called "Vav" (pronounced "vahv") and has the sound of "v" as in "vine." Correct?

Sometimes ol buddy i need a dictionary to read you! :p

ha ha!
What the dictionary doesn't tell you is that the Hebrew Alphabet is pictorial, or rather Hieroglyphic in nature just like the egyptian alphabet. For example, the Aleph in ancient form took on the form of an ox's head and denoted the essence of strong or mighty. The second letter is Bet, which took on the essence of a house or tent. Thus, Aleph Bet would mean "Strong House".

Vav on the other hand took on the form of a tent peg which took on the essence of securing something, and we know that it is God who secures all things. Without God, nothing is secured for God made all things.

This brings us to Yud, which takes on the form of an arm, and in essence means "to work". Without working, nothing can be secured. This is why every letter in the Hebrew alphabet has a Yud in it, because a yud is the starting point for everything.

ASV John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

ASV Colossians 1:16-17 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

chabad.org via rabbi infinity calls vav the idea that god comes down or that you grab god and bring him into your heart.

jeff, i havent hit that part yet in genesis.

 

[stovebolts]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Jason,
The part in Genesis from Ramban I believe came from Genesis 1:1 :toofunny

Anyway, I'm glad that you made this thread Jason because it does show that the Orthodox Jews do believe, as did their ancestors that creation took 6 literal days.

I've mentioned this earlier in other threads, but there isn't a scholar in the Hebrew language that interprets day in Genesis 1 as anything other than a literal day. Why then is it that it is only Evangelical Christians who try to interpret it differently?

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

true, yes he jumps a lot. i had you in mind when i did this thread.

 

[stovebolts]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

true, yes he jumps a lot. i had you in mind when i did this thread.

Yeah, but you have my commentaries and I mainly studied Exodus, not Genesis! That puts you in the hot seat lol!

 

[reba]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

I would be interested in understand the who what why anyone who claims Christ would not believe Genesis as written. That is not quite what i want to say.. Sounds like i am doubting ones Christianity i am not. I just dont have good use of words.. Can i get some thoughts on my thinking/heart and not the cold words?
2 guys that love the Lord.

Stove bolts .. Free .. both love the Lord, so do you Jason.., why the difference in the view of Genesis, like not the faith difference but the head difference... Clear as mud right?

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

its my understand that some are raised in school then read genesis and well want to reconcile both as they look at the "obvious" proof of old earth and then compromise.

 

[reba]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
IS this where the ???? comes in?

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

yes, we tend to see then as being the same as now when the bible doesnt say that. we look at the torah in the same manner. ie the way the sin offering was for a woman who gave birth. then without pain meds the mother would curse the father for doing this to her. make sense from what women say on child birth even with meds!

 

[stovebolts]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

I would be interested in understand the who what why anyone who claims Christ would not believe Genesis as written. That is not quite what i want to say.. Sounds like i am doubting ones Christianity i am not. I just dont have good use of words.. Can i get some thoughts on my thinking/heart and not the cold words?
2 guys that love the Lord.

Stove bolts .. Free .. both love the Lord, so do you Jason.., why the difference in the view of Genesis, like not the faith difference but the head difference... Clear as mud right?

Becky,
I can only give you my perspective. Duane will have to give you his.

I wasn't raised with the scriptures per se, but I was taught that the scriptures were trustworthy and through the years, I've struggled with many issues brought up in the scriptures including whether or not the flood was global or local, and whether or not the earth was 6,000 years old or 4.5 Billion.

As you may know, I tend to focus more on how God wants us to live than any other biblical area. And considering what God has brought me through since I was a teenager and how I can contrast my life with my brothers, step brothers and step sister I see much value in living the way scriptures teaches us to live. For me, that is first and foremost because I see it's results, and it affirms my faith not only in God, but in God's word. What it has developed in me, is a way to take scriptures at face value, and trust it at face value because every time I've compromised scriptures, I've had to learn my lesson the hard way.

This idea and way of thinking from a biblical perspective conflicted with what I knew and was taught about the age of the earth, and I actually thought at one time that Noah's flood was a local flood. But my spirit never felt right about those conclusions, so I mainly kept those ideas to myself because I knew one day, when I was ready God would let me know which direction to take. Likewise, and Jason knows this, but I stay out of end time discussions as well, and pretty much for the same reason with the added thrust that I've got a lot of learning to do about how to live each day better for God than to worry about the sequence of events in regard to end times because in the end I just figure it's gonna be what it is and we'll all find out anyway. Besides, I've seen way too many people really go off the deep end over that end time stuff and it causes them to skew scriptures in their favor, and that totally messes the original intent of those scriptures.

In the same way, I have found that if we go into the scriptures with a particular agenda, we'll draw out of scriptures what we want. Often, we can loose the original intent.

I've done a lot of homework as far as creation is concerned from an ancient perspective. I've read so many of the ancient near eastern creation accounts as well as Egyptian circumcision, egyptian stories that parallel Joseph. I've read Gilgamesh etc plus more from a book I have called Ancient Near Eastern text by Pritchard and really, they are all variants of the Biblical narrative in so many ways and where they aren't, the Biblical narrative takes a more stable approach or in others, it counters another ideology. Honestly, when I look at the intent of the biblical creation account through a cultural lense I see it directly opposing other creation ideologies, so for those in that culture who would be asking, "Which creation account is true, I see the creation account first and foremost as an apologetic response to the pantheon that surrounded God's people. If you understand the other ancient near eastern creation accounts, you'll understand this better.

From this view, we see that creation was deliberate and it was orderly. In other words, from chaos, comes order and order is the rule, not the exception and this is clearly seen regardless if you understand it from an ANE apologetic approach or not. In other words, it is easy to understand and it makes since as written.

Now then, the conflict on the creation account comes when we take secular logic and reason and apply that line of thinking to the biblical creation account. Honestly, it's like taking a square peg and placing it in a round hole. It just doesn't fit. Yet people try to make it fit because not only have they been taught secular evolution, but evolution makes logical sense so they are stuck with a conflict and are forced to make a choice of what is right? Is Science right or is the Bible right? They don't want to leave their mind at the door (nor should we) and they don't want to leave their faith in God either... so they compromise scriptures to hold both views or they loose faith in the Bible and start to view the whole thing, or at least parts of it as myth. For me, I see it just as easy to use science to confirm a young earth, even if its not the popular view.

It is that feeling I spoke about earlier that I get when I compromise the plain teaching of the Bible to accommodate my secular world view, and those have been some of the toughest lessons I've learned in my life, and I don't want to make that same mistake again, or I want to minimize those events where I can.

When Peter asked if could come walk on the water, he was saying, "Rabbi, I want to be like you". He knew that he couldn't walk on water... it was impossible. But he had faith that he could be like Jesus, and it was that step of faith that allowed him to walk on water. But I believe that he started to doubt because it all didn't add up for Peter. He knew he shouldn't be walking on water... that's impossible. And he began to sink. And what did Jesus say bout Peters faith? Paul, in 1st Corinthians talks about the foolishness of the Cross. So much could be said about it's foolishness,

I don't claim to know everything about science. Actually, I know very little. But my faith doesn't have to be bliind and I can question science from a biblical perspective. Keeping the original intent of the biblical creation account close to my thoughts, I've found that science runs on a lot of assumptions, and although not perfect like any science, we can use the same scientific data to affirm a young earth... and that agrees with how I view the original intent of the creation account.

It's tough at times, I'm not going to lie and say it isn't. But as far as the differences between Duane and I, I'm simply arguing closer to the original intent of scriptures, and Duane is arguing from his secular knowledge. I don't fault him for it... I did that at one time myself. But I see a danger in his thinking, and although he loves the lord, I see him very close to moving toward athiestic thinking. And although I doubt that he would ever foresake Jesus. Actually, I am confident that he will stay grounded in his faith in Jesus, what I don't think he recognizes is how many other people from the church started off in the path that Duane has gone, and they leave the church entirely and many of them become atheists that attack Chrisitanity and pull many weaker Christians out of christianity by way of logic and skewed reason.

 

[reba]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

Thanks Stove i do hope Duane will respond also...
I grew up believing the Word to true. I also grew up in a time when many believers claimed, shouted etc dinosaurs NEVER existed.
To my simple mind accepting YEC as truth is easy. a childlike faith, no extended education, which for some causes doubt, ... I do wish that same childlike faith carried over to other areas but that is another topic... How can one accept/believe in the rest of the Word if they dont believe in the beginning?

I've read so many of the ancient near eastern creation accounts as well as Egyptian circumcision,......

Not ever giving other writings much thought I found this paragraph very interesting..

Scofield and company and the gap theory .. IMV they have done a lot of harm to the Body.

As you say "science runs on a lot of assumptions" about 1956 in class i remember the text book with the picture of dino and mans foot prints in the same mud.

Assumptions or faith I'll take faith

Science theory or His Word I'll take the Word.

At 65 years i see God as always being the same, while science has change over and over.....

Thank you for such a pleasant post and the info, and having the info, on a level i can grasp....

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the jews and sages believed beersherith(genesis for you gentiles) was to be taken

:D i have more to post from ramban. he says the name of god in genesis 1:1 is elokim which means the master of all forces.

"he who spoke creation into being.."