the Law 2.0

[prophetofsong]

A popular part of Christian theology is the idea that God, out of his grace, sent Jesus to die for our sins and provide us salvation, since humans always fell short of God's law and needed a way out. Oddly enough though, many (most?) will still fail at accepting Christ and if God is all knowing, then he knew that to be the case even before He sent Jesus. So in effect, God's plan of sending Jesus really turned out to be a "Law 2.0" since it fails to 100% solve the problem of man's separation with God.

You would think that God would be capable of making a plan that fallible humans couldn't screw up (which would be their nature to do since they are sinful)? Hence, I've come to reject that particular theology.

 

[glorydaz]

A popular part of Christian theology is the idea that God, out of his grace, sent Jesus to die for our sins and provide us salvation, since humans always fell short of God's law and needed a way out. Oddly enough though, many (most?) will still fail at accepting Christ and if God is all knowing, then he knew that to be the case even before He sent Jesus. So in effect, God's plan of sending Jesus really turned out to be a "Law 2.0" since it fails to 100% solve the problem of man's separation with God.

You would think that God would be capable of making a plan that fallible humans couldn't screw up (which would be their nature to do since they are sinful)? Hence, I've come to reject that particular theology.

Jesus' death on the cross did solve the problem of man's separation from God. He has opened the prison doors. The reason not all men are saved, isn't because the way hasn't been provided, but rather God also gave man a freewill to choose to walk out of the prison door. Therefore, man is without excuse and God's Justice has been satisfied.

 

[prophetofsong]

Jesus' death on the cross did solve the problem of man's separation from God. He has opened the prison doors. The reason not all men are saved, isn't because the way hasn't been provided, but rather God also gave man a freewill to choose to walk out of the prison door. Therefore, man is without excuse and God's Justice has been satisfied.

It's no where near that simple though. "Free will" sounds nice on the surface, but it doesn't mean much in the sense of choosing the right beliefs when there is no way to verify or falsify those beliefs (such as the belief that accepting Jesus is the only way to Heaven). Man does have an excuse, and that is all its beliefs about God and spirituality are essentially based on "faith", as opposed to fact. Their faith MAY point to fact but if they cant verify it then they must have faith that they are correct; which from the above mentioned perspective means that when people die God says to everyone not a Born again christian "Oops, sorry, you had faith in the wrong thing so now I have no choice but to send you to hell forever, even though my Son already theoretically paid for all your sins, it doesnt matter now because you didn't believe it even though there was no way for you to really know if it was true."

Despite the fact that'd be purely ridiculous, the "free will" argument seems to be just a smoke-screen from the fact that God, being all-knowing, could have thought of a plan of redemption that didn't exclude any mankind due to any of their flaws (including disbelief)...and without violating "free will". The obvious start to that would be to make his plan of salvation as verifiable and obvious as the trees outside my house.

 

[Former Christian]

Prophetofsong

Your not considering the value of the witness within that the Bible itself proclaims. Those who haven't that witness, or deny that witness, are as you say. Without any proof as to what they believe. Other than what someone else tells them is true. Kind of like people believing in Evolutionism. Unless you're a scientist with years of education, you have no way of knowing if it's true or not. You just take it by faith that the scientists know what they're talking about.

FC

 

[prophetofsong]

Prophetofsong

Your not considering the value of the witness within that the Bible itself proclaims. Those who haven't that witness, or deny that witness, are as you say. Without any proof as to what they believe. Other than what someone else tells them is true. Kind of like people believing in Evolutionism. Unless you're a scientist with years of education, you have no way of knowing if it's true or not. You just take it by faith that the scientists know what they're talking about.

FC

The Bible is good, but I guess I personally dont view it as a 100% accurate view of God the spiritual dimension. I don't think the authors of the Bible (and certainly not the ones who canonize or the ones who translated it) were infallible so to believe what they wrote to be infallible is a little too much of a stretch for me personally. Not because I don't think God would be able to do that if he wanted, but how do I know that was his goal in the first place? I don't.

I know that's maybe not specifically what you were arguing but I'm just explaining why I cant just "take it by faith that they know what they're talking about". I don't think God gave us the ability to reason just so we could constantly over-ride it with book.

 

[kjb1769]

Why do you think God didn't write the bible?

How can anyone believe some parts of the bible and not other parts of the bible?

 

[Gazelle]

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We ascribe to the above as Christians on this site. I guess you need to take the "yes" off your profile when talking about being a Christian?

 

[for_his_glory]

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We take it for granted that the sky is blue and grass is green, but how do we know for a surety this is true. We just accept it without proof. There are many things out there that can not be explained, but we accept certain things that can be explained by a carnal knowledge of a thought process that evolves into proof.

Jesus is a thought process that evolves into proof when we apply his word to our lives to know for a surety of who he said he was he is and the promises of God are evident in our lives. Our carnal mind can not fathom that which is Spiritual and all things of God are Spiritual as He is spirit not of flesh and blood.

When I first came to Jesus all I knew were the stories taught to me in Sunday school when I was a child. I never read the Bible or went to Church in my teen years , but something always tried to draw me to him even though I tried to ignore that which would become evident in my own life. I finally gave into that drawing power, which later on would learn it was God calling me but was ignorant of His calling. Even though I knew very little about Jesus other than those early stories in Sunday school I was drawn into His presence and was curious enough to want to know if he really did exist or not.

I went through the ritual of asking Jesus to be Lord and Savior in my life, but it would be many years later that I would know him in such a personal way that is very hard to explain as it is a Spiritual moment that can not be logically explained to the carnal mind.

Before this gets to lengthy the point I am trying to make is if you truly want to know truth then simply humble yourself and go to the source of truth (Holy Spirit) and ask. I do agree with you that even the Bible may have a few mistakes in it as even though it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, it's English content may differ from the original manuscripts as one English word can take on many different meanings when being taught by others and that is why we need the Holy Spirit teach us all truths. Allow God to prove himself to you by applying His promises to your own life.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

 

[prophetofsong]

Why do you think God didn't write the bible?

Because I have no proof that he did. I only have the doctrines of man that say he did.

How can anyone believe some parts of the bible and not other parts of the bible?

For me its not really about "beleving some parts and not others" but more about recognizing that it's a not necessarily a book that perfectly lays out God and everything he wants us to know. I see it more as the combination of two ancient communities views on God based on the experiences and stories that shaped their culture. We can learn from that still today and use it as building blocks for our own ideas but it doesnt have to rigidly define them, imho.

We ascribe to the above as Christians on this site. I guess you need to take the "yes" off your profile when talking about being a Christian?

And people are free to believe that, however I don't think I have to believe that in order to be a Christian. It is one view among countless others in the long and varied history of Christianity.

We take it for granted that the sky is blue and grass is green, but how do we know for a surety this is true. We just accept it without proof. There are many things out there that can not be explained, but we accept certain things that can be explained by a carnal knowledge of a thought process that evolves into proof.

Being able to physically see something is a little bit different than accepting a particular doctrine about a book being the infallible words of God. One is certainly better evidence than the other, I would say.

Before this gets to lengthy the point I am trying to make is if you truly want to know truth then simply humble yourself and go to the source of truth (Holy Spirit) and ask. I do agree with you that even the Bible may have a few mistakes in it as even though it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, it's English content may differ from the original manuscripts as one English word can take on many different meanings when being taught by others and that is why we need the Holy Spirit teach us all truths. Allow God to prove himself to you by applying His promises to your own life.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

I actually was a devout fundamentalist Christian for about 7 or 8 years of my life, in which I believed the Bible was fully the infallible words of God as well as agreeing to just about any other doctrine you might think is "central" to the Christian faith. About two years ago that started to change with the more thinking, praying and studying I did and the entire way I have felt guided by the same spirit that prompted me to accept Jesus 10 or so years ago. I now consider myself more of a "liberal" christian (though that has so many negative connotations for most). If he isn't guiding me now, then I don't think he ever was even in my hardcore, evangelizing, fundamentalist days.

 

[for_his_glory]

We absolutely should not believe every doctrine that is taught us as we know there are many false prophets and teachers out there being used of Satan unaware. Unless you can read the language of the original manuscripts written by those who walked with Christ all we have is what we call the Bible even though it might contain a few mistakes because of word translations and this is why we need the Holy Spirit to teach us in all truths.

Is the Bible essential for salvation, I do not feel that it is as our relationship with Christ is a personal one on one commitment to Gods grace and mercy to lead a life that is pleasing to the Father. God said to only believe in him and the one (Jesus) he sent and accept him as Lord of your life as we shed this old sin nature to live a Spiritually renewed life that glorifies God within our actions towards others.

The Bible is our lesson book, but only the Spirit of God can teach us those lessons and that is why it is so important to know the difference between truth or error in what we read or hear.

I do not attend any Church anymore where I live as I have yet to find one that teaches through the Holy Spirit, but only teach through the doctrines and traditions of man. I broke away from a socialistic religion that is socially acceptable to society with their feel good messages that feeds the emotions of the flesh, but leaves your soul empty and void of Spiritual truth. Many come against me for what I teach because it comes against their socially acceptable doctrines.

All my teachings come from what the Holy Spirit teaches me as I have found many mistakes in mans teachings that do not line up with the word of God. You can not add to or take away from Gods word for their are consequences one will pay for that and when I teach a class I always tell people to not believe a word I say until you get into the word for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to confirm to you of what I am teaching is truth or error because it is only I that will stand before the Lord to give an account for what I have taught.

Can we be a Spiritually born-again child of God separate from a written book, yes as it is a personal relationship, but even a child needs instruction to grow into maturity.

 

[childeye]

It's no where near that simple though. "Free will" sounds nice on the surface, but it doesn't mean much in the sense of choosing the right beliefs when there is no way to verify or falsify those beliefs (such as the belief that accepting Jesus is the only way to Heaven). Man does have an excuse, and that is all its beliefs about God and spirituality are essentially based on "faith", as opposed to fact. Their faith MAY point to fact but if they cant verify it then they must have faith that they are correct; which from the above mentioned perspective means that when people die God says to everyone not a Born again christian "Oops, sorry, you had faith in the wrong thing so now I have no choice but to send you to hell forever, even though my Son already theoretically paid for all your sins, it doesnt matter now because you didn't believe it even though there was no way for you to really know if it was true."

Despite the fact that'd be purely ridiculous, the "free will" argument seems to be just a smoke-screen from the fact that God, being all-knowing, could have thought of a plan of redemption that didn't exclude any mankind due to any of their flaws (including disbelief)...and without violating "free will". The obvious start to that would be to make his plan of salvation as verifiable and obvious as the trees outside my house.

You wrote a very interesting post. What I believe is that there is a piece of Godly Love in a man that allows him to believe.

 

[felix]

A curse of death was given if man sins, in Eden even before man knew good and evil. Now, he had sinned, man should die because man is now cursed. Further man is cursed that he would become dust for dust he is. But God wants to save mankind because he was deceived and his disobedience was when he does not know it is evil. Now, many think it's a battle between Satan and God. No it's not. Satan is just a created being who fear and tremble before God and need to submit and give report as one of sons of God. The real battle is between man and Death, because it is man who is facing death. Now God sought to find a way to save mankind. Unfortunately, no one can beat death except God Himself. Now, the problem is, God cannot contradict His Word through which He cursed man. So, the solution is, a man must take the curse of death and yet the curse must have no effect, so that all mankind can follow the same way to escape death. Unfortunately, there is no such man living or dead. So, God Himself became a man to live a sinless life and enter death, so that He can beat death through that man. As every man, Jesus Christ also entered death. But death was not able to hold Him because He is life and God raised Him from the dead. So, God gives His Spirit to everyone who believes in this Man Jesus Christ, so that death cannot overcome any man who believes not because of who he is, but because of who is within him, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and our spirit will be as one spirit and He will raise us from the dead.

So, all that we want to do is to believe Jesus Christ to receive Holy Spirit so that we can also escape death.