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The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

Blasphemy????? Where??? If so please tell me and I will happily retract it, whatever 'it' is.

The scripture you quoted - Romans 13v8 - is a good one; I think it's worth quoting the whole paragraph here:

"8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

I agree with much of what you say, but it's worth remembering that Paul kept the Mosaic law because he was a Jew; if I was a Jew I'm sure I would also choose to keep it. For Jews, it is their heritage and their culture. Not so for Gentiles. The main reason that the Jews persecuted Paul was because he preached that circumcision was not necessary for the Gentiles. In Galatians 5v11 he says:
"11 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed."

I think the question can perhaps be best summed up by V6 of the same chapter:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. "

A person may choose to keep the Mosaic law; I don't believe that anyone should teach others that it is essential to do so.
 
GrannyJ said:
Blasphemy????? Where??? If so please tell me and I will happily retract it, whatever 'it' is.

The scripture you quoted - Romans 13v8 - is a good one; I think it's worth quoting the whole paragraph here:

"8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you say, but it's worth remembering that Paul kept the Mosaic law because he was a Jew; if I was a Jew I'm sure I would also choose to keep it. For Jews, it is their heritage and their culture. Not so for Gentiles. The main reason that the Jews persecuted Paul was because he preached that circumcision was not necessary for the Gentiles.
Click to expand...

I don''t mean to be disrespectful but I find your statement to be confusing. So I will just state what I believe the NT shows us.
1) Paul did not 'keep' the Mosaic Law
2) There is no difference in the laws to be 'kept' by Gentile believers in Messiah and Jewish believers in Messiah
3) The main reason the Jews persecuted Paul was because he preached that Jesus was the long awaited Jewish Messiah. That is why they persecuted All the apostles and many other disciples. They All preached that the days of the temple sacrifices of bulls and goats, the high priest in the temple, the Levites, etc. was over. That the old covenant was Obsolete. Jesus, the Messiah was the true high priest. That is why the Jews persecuted them. That Jews were not longer under the covenant of Moses. Moses was no longer their mediator, the Messiah Jesus was. The Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, could not careless, even today, what the non-Jews believe. But they did and do care very much about their people being lead to believe in Jesus the Messiah.

In Galatians 5v11 he says:
"11 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed."

I think the question can perhaps be best summed up by V6 of the same chapter:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. "
Click to expand...

I agree this verse is a perfect example of one of Paul's summation of the covenant of the Messiah.

A person may choose to keep the Mosaic law; I don't believe that anyone should teach others that it is essential to do so.
Click to expand...

No one, not even the Orthodox Jewish Pharisees, can keep the Mosaic Law today. There is no temple to do that.

However, anyone whether Jew, Jewish believer in Messiah, non-Jewish believer in Messiah can if they choose follow some of the laws that are included in the Law of Moses. We are at liberty to eat kosher, celebrate the feasts, wear certain clothes such as a tallit with the tzitzit. I see nothing in the NT that forbids these things for the natural Jew or the non-natural Jew.
So I basically agree with your statement, "A person may choose to keep the Mosaic law; I don't believe that anyone should teach others that it is essential to do so."
Except I would say, "may choose to keep parts of the Law of Moses."
 
Hi Deborah

You're right; it would be impossible to keep the entire Mosaic law today. But do you think that Paul didn't keep it? There's that bit in Acts 21v26 where the apostles advised him to pay the purification expenses for four men who had taken a vow, "then everyone will know that there is no truth in these reports about you, but you yourself are living according to the law"

I believe that Paul chose to live according to Jewish law, even though he knew that it is not necessary for salvation.

Hi Jethro - yes, I did assume it was meant as a joke, but at the same time I'd really like to know what part of my post could - even jokingly - be seen as blasphemous? Am I missing a point somewhere?
 
GrannyJ said:
There's that bit in Acts 21v26 where the apostles advised him to pay the purification expenses for four men who had taken a vow, "then everyone will know that there is no truth in these reports about you, but you yourself are living according to the law"

I believe that Paul chose to live according to Jewish law, even though he knew that it is not necessary for salvation.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup


GrannyJ said:
Hi Jethro - yes, I did assume it was meant as a joke, but at the same time I'd really like to know what part of my post could - even jokingly - be seen as blasphemous?
Click to expand...
Lol. I was referring to the suggestion that we might actually be able to learn something and benefit from the law/OT and that it could somehow be applicable to life in this New Covenant. Speaking generally, of course, but the church has teachings in it that say just to acknowledge the law is contrary to the Spirit and is, therefore, a sin. Let alone the fact that they think keeping the law in any shape or form is categorically a sin. I found out this comes from the official edict of the church somewhere in the third or fourth centuries that decided for everybody that was true.
 
GrannyJ said:
Hi Deborah

You're right; it would be impossible to keep the entire Mosaic law today. But do you think that Paul didn't keep it? There's that bit in Acts 21v26 where the apostles advised him to pay the purification expenses for four men who had taken a vow, "then everyone will know that there is no truth in these reports about you, but you yourself are living according to the law"

I believe that Paul chose to live according to Jewish law, even though he knew that it is not necessary for salvation.

Hi Jethro - yes, I did assume it was meant as a joke, but at the same time I'd really like to know what part of my post could - even jokingly - be seen as blasphemous? Am I missing a point somewhere?
Click to expand...

No, do you believe Paul made sacrifices of the blood of animals for atonement of sin? I'm sure you don't.

Yes, in Acts 21, Paul did do what they asked him to do. Was that wrong, I don't think so. But what did Paul say about his actions, in the way he lived?
1Co 9:19 for being free from all men, to all men I made myself servant, that the more I might gain;
1Co 9:20 and I became to the Jews as a Jew, that Jews I might gain; to those under law as under law, that those under law I might gain;
1Co 9:21 to those without law, as without law--(not being without law to God, but within law to Christ) --that I might gain those without law;
1Co 9:22 I became to the infirm as infirm, that the infirm I might gain; to all men I have become all things, that by all means I may save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do because of the good news, that a fellow-partaker of it I may become;

Paul here explains how and why he lives as he does. Paul, loved his people just as Jesus did which we see so clearly expressed when He wept over the coming destruction of city, the people of Jerusalem and the nation.

I forgotten one other thing that the Jews despised the apostles for. They taught one did not need to covert to Judaism in order to be one of God's chosen people but were grafted in by faith in Messiah. That Abraham was the father of all believers. That they the Jew could be cut off and would need to be grafted back in. :shock
 
Jethro Bodine said:
:thumbsup



Lol. I was referring to the suggestion that we might actually be able to learn something and benefit from the law/OT and that it could somehow be applicable to life in this New Covenant. Speaking generally, of course, but the church has teachings in it that say just to acknowledge the law is contrary to the Spirit and is, therefore, a sin. Let alone the fact that they think keeping the law in any shape or form is categorically a sin. I found out this comes from the official edict of the church somewhere in the third or fourth centuries that decided for everybody that was true.
Click to expand...

Aaaahhhhh - now I understand where you're coming from. I didn't know about that church edict - ya learn something new every day. Thank goodness we are now able to read the Bible for ourselves, and not rely on church leaders to tell us what to think. Even if it does mean we don't always agree!

Deborah - I think that scripture sums it up very well. Paul chose to live at least partially by Jewish law, for the specific purpose of winning the Jews. It's possible that a modern-day Jewish Christian may choose to do the same, possibly for the same reasons, but this would not have an effect either way on his salvation, which is through Christ only.
 
GrannyJ said:
Deborah - I think that scripture sums it up very well. Paul chose to live at least partially by Jewish law, for the specific purpose of winning the Jews. It's possible that a modern-day Jewish Christian may choose to do the same, possibly for the same reasons, but this would not have an effect either way on his salvation, which is through Christ only.
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I agree, I think any Christian Jew or non-Jew may choose or even be lead by the Lord to share in some of things. I think celebrating Messiah together is the intent for the Body of Christ.

I think most Messianic people understand they are not justified by doing things but there can be a danger of thinking one is somehow sanctified (made more holy) by doing these things. So we need to understand what Paul taught; that our sanctification is also in Christ, only by Him. If we don't we may see ourselves thinking we are more holy than people who do not do these things which can lead to self-righteousness.

I have been to one such gathering of God's people, Native Americans, Jews, non-Jews, India Indian, ranchers and city people, it was the most wonderful celebration of the Lord's Passover and Resurrection. To see Jesus' love on so many different kinds of people's faces worshiping the Messiah together and not judging how another worshiped. Praise the Lord!
 
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