The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[Edward]

here's a can of worms for you brothers and sisters. Are we released from the Law? Is the OT and the Torah even applicable to the modern New Testament church? Some say no, some say yes. Can we connect the old testament to the new? Should we even bother reading the Torah?

I say yes, brothers and sisters. Let me show you how I connected them. Let's start in the new Testament.

Matthew 25:1-13
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard:‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming./

I think that the oil for the lamps must be truth. Oil was used to light the Minora. The first and foremost use of oil was to light the lamps. Light of the minora represents truth. Who is the light of the world? None other than the Messiah, Yeshua (The Word). (1 John 1:1, the Word became flesh). What was the Word in the first century when there was no new Testament yet? The only Word of God to a first century Jew was the Torah, Prophets, and the Tanach..The Word of Elohim. So could it be that the parable of the 10 virgins was as simple as they all had lamps (a religious system) but only 5 had enough truth (Torah, truth) to last through the night. Truth is always depicted as light, lies are darkness...

Ok, on to "I do not know you"... Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who work iniquity!’ (same phrase as in Matthew 25:11) "I do not know you" is defined in Matthew 7 as those who work iniquity. Iniquity...off to Strongs...;)

Iniquity G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness./

So there you have it. Also, righteousness is defined in both Greek and Hebrew as those who follow the divine law of God. So grace notwithstanding, we are to keep gods law and the Torah. You bet brothers and sisters, we have one book there not two where one is outdated and does not apply.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

yes. Torah(not 'law') flows daily from God, and it is not a can or worms ..... it is LIFE for the soul, healing for the bones , instructions , guidance, and nurturing intimately from the Creator of the Universe to and with those who abide in Him in Christ Jesus!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

here's a can of worms for you brothers and sisters. Are we released from the Law? Is the OT and the Torah even applicable to the modern New Testament church? Some say no, some say yes. Can we connect the old testament to the new? Should we even bother reading the Torah?

I say yes, brothers and sisters. Let me show you how I connected them. Let's start in the new Testament.

Matthew 25:1-13
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard:‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming./

I think that the oil for the lamps must be truth. Oil was used to light the Minora. The first and foremost use of oil was to light the lamps. Light of the minora represents truth. Who is the light of the world? None other than the Messiah, Yeshua (The Word). (1 John 1:1, the Word became flesh). What was the Word in the first century when there was no new Testament yet? The only Word of God to a first century Jew was the Torah, Prophets, and the Tanach..The Word of Elohim. So could it be that the parable of the 10 virgins was as simple as they all had lamps (a religious system) but only 5 had enough truth (Torah, truth) to last through the night. Truth is always depicted as light, lies are darkness...

Ok, on to "I do not know you"... Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who work iniquity!’ (same phrase as in Matthew 25:11) "I do not know you" is defined in Matthew 7 as those who work iniquity. Iniquity...off to Strongs...;)

Iniquity G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness./

So there you have it. Also, righteousness is defined in both Greek and Hebrew as those who follow the divine law of God. So grace notwithstanding, we are to keep gods law and the Torah. You bet brothers and sisters, we have one book there not two where one is outdated and does not apply.

Let's make it simple.

The whole Law is summed up in the two commands, which are to Love God and Love people (abbreviated version). Do this, and one has fulfilled the purpose of the Law.

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10

 

[Gary]

here's a can of worms for you brothers and sisters. Are we released from the Law? Is the OT and the Torah even applicable to the modern New Testament church? Some say no, some say yes. Can we connect the old testament to the new? Should we even bother reading the Torah?

I say yes, brothers and sisters. Let me show you how I connected them. Let's start in the new Testament.

Matthew 25:1-13
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard:‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming./

I think that the oil for the lamps must be truth. Oil was used to light the Minora. The first and foremost use of oil was to light the lamps. Light of the minora represents truth. Who is the light of the world? None other than the Messiah, Yeshua (The Word). (1 John 1:1, the Word became flesh). What was the Word in the first century when there was no new Testament yet? The only Word of God to a first century Jew was the Torah, Prophets, and the Tanach..The Word of Elohim. So could it be that the parable of the 10 virgins was as simple as they all had lamps (a religious system) but only 5 had enough truth (Torah, truth) to last through the night. Truth is always depicted as light, lies are darkness...

Ok, on to "I do not know you"... Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who work iniquity!’ (same phrase as in Matthew 25:11) "I do not know you" is defined in Matthew 7 as those who work iniquity. Iniquity...off to Strongs...;)

Iniquity G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness./

So there you have it. Also, righteousness is defined in both Greek and Hebrew as those who follow the divine law of God. So grace notwithstanding, we are to keep gods law and the Torah. You bet brothers and sisters, we have one book there not two where one is outdated and does not apply.

There are 613 commandments given to the Jewish people. Why would a gentile put himself under that kind of bondage?
.

 

[TOG]

There are 613 commandments given to the Jewish people. Why would a gentile put himself under that kind of bondage?
.

Do you have any idea how many laws there are when you take the traffic laws, criminal code, tax laws and others and put them all together? Why would you put yourself under such bondage? Even the traffic laws all on their own probably have more "commandments" than the Torah. Is it bondage to obey them? The Torah is not bondage, it's Gods will and tells us how He wants us to live. Why wouldn't a Gentile want to obey God's will?

The TOG​

 

[Edward]

yes. Torah(not 'law') flows daily from God, and it is not a can or worms ..... it is LIFE for the soul, healing for the bones , instructions , guidance, and nurturing intimately from the Creator of the Universe to and with those who abide in Him in Christ Jesus!

Amen brother!

Let's make it simple.

The whole Law is summed up in the two commands, which are to Love God and Love people (abbreviated version). Do this, and one has fulfilled the purpose of the Law.

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10

Sure enough brother, that does simplify it. When one walks in love as with the mind of Christ love will indeed fulfill and not transgress the law.

There are 613 commandments given to the Jewish people. Why would a gentile put himself under that kind of bondage?
.

just like TOG said brother. it is not bondage, it is Gods will.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

and that is not what obeying Yhwh meanse(keeping 1,2,613 laws). simply, no one could keep the law --- but the law is perfect and leads the elect to Christ.
the people of God were the only ones given the Torah. the people of the world had and follow the prince of darkness still.
so the choice is "Torah" from God, or "darkness" from the prince of darkness.

God instructs his children daily. most of the world does not seek Him, and few listen to Him. one is saved. one is lost.

1 John 1 - 5 is wonderful in simplicity and truth and fullness of grace. whoever does not do the will of God IS NOT HIS.

as for love, Jesus says it best. whoever loves Me keeps My commandments. (not as if the letter of the law, nor as if trusting the law, but whoever trusts Jesus does what He says and imitates Him, lives as He lives)
simple.

 

[Deborah13]

There are 613 commandments given to the Jewish people. Why would a gentile put himself under that kind of bondage?
.

I agree.
Why would any Christian, whether they be of Jewish ancestry or some other ancestry put themselves in bondage of Moses Law?
Moses Law was not just laws it was a covenant. Those who were/are believers are not in that covenant.
That covenant is for the unbeliever.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Who is the righteous man?
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified (holy), but ye are justified (righteous) in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

How did one become righteous?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Deborah13]

Do you have any idea how many laws there are when you take the traffic laws, criminal code, tax laws and others and put them all together? Why would you put yourself under such bondage? Even the traffic laws all on their own probably have more "commandments" than the Torah. Is it bondage to obey them? The Torah is not bondage, it's Gods will and tells us how He wants us to live. Why wouldn't a Gentile want to obey God's will?

The TOG​

Moses Law was a covenant, not just a list of rules/laws.
I do not want to be judged by Moses Law because I am not that perfect. I want to be judged by the covenant of grace and faith. This is the covenant of Abraham and his One Seed, the Messiah.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

good. under the covenant, abiding in God's Word, abiding in Jesus,
the law is written on our hearts. we love to obey Him now, instead of struggling to. (when born from Him).

and even gentiles. !

Romans 2

 

[Gary]

just like TOG said brother. it is not bondage, it is Gods will.

Do you keep this commandment?

Deuteronomy 22
11 “You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together.


Or this one?


Leviticus 2
13 And every offering of your grain offering you shall season with salt; you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall offer salt.


How do gentiles get around this next commandment?


Deuteronomy 7
1 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you,
2 and when the Lord your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them.
3 Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son.



Do you make these alterations to your clothing?


Numbers 15
37 Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
38 “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners.
39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined,
40 and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.



Here's a couple more.

Leviticus 5
17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.
18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him.


Leviticus 4
27 ‘If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the Lord in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty,
28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.




Do you advocate that gentiles are to uphold these commandments?

just like TOG said brother. it is not bondage, it is Gods will.

If this is God's will, why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?


.

 

[Deborah13]

Amen brother!
Sure enough brother, that does simplify it. When one walks in love as with the mind of Christ love will indeed fulfill and not transgress the law.
just like TOG said brother. it is not bondage, it is Gods will.

I think you will need to get busy. I can guarantee that by the Law of Moses you would not be found to be righteous. Neither would I.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Do you know what the law says?
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Which covenant do you suppose King David was judged by?
Abraham and his One Seed (the Messiah)?
or
Moses Law?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

you just missed the whole point Gary. (and Deborah). (about which law, written or spirit - not the letter of the law, that kills, but the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus(God's Torah)... and yes, Godly men will not choose and marry pagan women, except to their own hurt - regarding both faith and life. and yes, Godly men today, and Godly women, do not mix materials. If they do though, it is not necessarily to their damnation. (Yhwh knows).
the point is, those laws that are written on our hearts in Christ Jesus are the ones we honor and keep - like the gentiles do who have a torah written on their heart according to Scripture.
http://www.k9safesearch.com/search....+torah+on+their+hearts+gentiles+galatians&v=w

God did not write "do what you want to do" on our hearts in Christ Jesus. no. not at all. also not "do what feels good". no!

so, what did God write on our hearts in Christ Jesus, as GOD Promised He would in (if you like) the new covenant in Christ Jesus)
TORAH! Torah is what God writes on our hearts in Christ Jesus. He says so. It is written. It didn't change since it was written.
Jeremiah 31

Hebrews 8

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah)

 

[Deborah13]

you just missed the whole point Gary. (and Deborah). (about which law, written or spirit - not the letter of the law, that kills, but the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus(God's Torah)... and yes, Godly men will not choose and marry pagan women, except to their own hurt - regarding both faith and life. and yes, Godly men today, and Godly women, do not mix materials. If they do though, it is not necessarily to their damnation. (Yhwh knows).
the point is, those laws that are written on our hearts in Christ Jesus are the ones we honor and keep - like the gentiles do who have a torah written on their heart according to Scripture.
http://www.k9safesearch.com/search.jsp?q=I will write the torah on their hearts gentiles galatians&v=w

God did not write "do what you want to do" on our hearts in Christ Jesus. no. not at all. also not "do what feels good". no!

so, what did God write on our hearts in Christ Jesus, as GOD Promised He would in (if you like) the new covenant in Christ Jesus)
TORAH! Torah is what God writes on our hearts in Christ Jesus. He says so. It is written. It didn't change since it was written.
Jeremiah 31

Hebrews 8

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah)

I think you are the one who missed my point.
If you are going to respond to me you need to respond to my post and address what I said point by point not what you think I said. If it is not clear to you, please ask.
So if you do not agree with what I said, please address it that point and clearly give your reason why, that is how it works in conversations.
Your post does not even give me a clue as to what your disagreement is. I did not even mention what is written on our hearts.
My POINT is about Covenants only. Do you understand the difference between the covenants?

 

[Gary]

TORAH! Torah is what God writes on our hearts in Christ Jesus. He says so. It is written. It didn't change since it was written.

Is this in the Torah?

Matthew 5
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Or this?

Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.


Or this?

Matthew 5
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


One more.


Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
.

 

[Gary]

you just missed the whole point Gary.

Which is what?
.

 

[TOG]

If this is God's will, why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?


.

Maybe you'll understand it better, if you give a little thought to what "this" is in your question...

If it is God's will that we don't commit adultery, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we don't commit murder, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we honor our fathers and mothers, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we shouldn't worship idols, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we should not rape, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it's God's will that we love Him with all our hearts (Deu. 6:5), then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it's God's will that we love our neighbors as ourselves (Lev. 19:18), then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?

Let me know if you figure it out.

The TOG​

 

[Gary]

Maybe you'll understand it better, if you give a little thought to what "this" is in your question...

"This" is referencing the Torah.

If it is God's will that we follow the Torah, what was the meaning behind the crucifixion of Jesus?
.

 

[Deborah13]

Gary and TOG
What is the Torah?
What is Torah?

Do you both have the same definition of Torah?

 

[Gary]

Gary and TOG
What is the Torah?
What is Torah?

Do you both have the same definition of Torah?

From my understanding the Torah was written for the Jewish people. It falls under the Old Covenant.

If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
.