The law of Righteousness

[francisdesales]

Yes and dead men don't come to repentence and believe unless it is by the power of God.
If Christ paid for the sins of every single individual no person can be cast into hell. No one can by judged according to their works because God would be judging sin through the body of Christ as well as sin through the unsaved individual. God would be perfectly unjust in doing so.

I disagree with your take on this...

First, we aren't totally dead to the workings of the Spirit even before regeneration.
Second, Christ didn't pay the price of every individual sin, since that is eternal hell. He atoned for our sins.
Third, God judges us, not Christ.
Fourth, God is not bound to any standards of human justice, he can forgive man without requiring a perfect sacrifice, as He did throughout the OT.

Let's say the son of a store owner paid for the exact items a thief stole.
The store owner later catches the thief and requires him to pay. Is the store owner just by collecting payment twice?

No, but is the store owner just if he lets the thief go without collecting the exact amount? What do the Gospels sasy on this situation?

 

[Mysteryman]

You are the one who should be able to explain that ! You said you literally drink the blood of Christ.

I do, at the Eucharist, just as He commanded...

Hi Joe

And that is the crux of your understanding. Do you take Jesus' words literally all of the time ? When Peter took the words of Jesus literally, he thought he would have to go back into his mothers womb, in order to be born again.

Jesus was speaking spiritually, not literally Joe !

When Jesus said - "This is my body which is given for you" , he was speaking of his body. But the bread he held up , only represented his body that would be broken for us. Now you think that in some mysterious way , when you hold up unleavened bread, that it miraculously turns into the literal body of Christ. And the same with the cup, you believe that the wine turns into literally the blood of Christ in some miraculous way. So that you can say that you literally are drinking the blood of Christ. Not only is this barbaric, but it is also paganistic.

Jesus Christ knew the Law, obviously. The Law states clearly, that the sacrifical lamb's blood was not to be consumed. Yet , you claim that Jesus is telling you that the sacrifical blood is to be consumed. And you claim, that he turned the wine into blood. Yet there is no biblical reference or evidence of this happening whatsoever !

Righteousness is right thinking. Unrighteousness is wrong thinking. Action is required . The righteous will live by righteousness, according to the understanding of scripture. The unrighteous, will live by the traditions of men and the doctrines of devils.

Righteous want the unrighteous to live as the righteous should live and have understanding.

 

[Adullam]

Adullam wrote:
The modern position is the powerless gospel that saves people who continue in unrighteousness and lawlessness. It really is a slam on righteousness. This position states that God is not looking for obedience at all. He says to us...relax, do whatever you like....I'll save you. In fact the more you "try" to do what is right, the less I will save you. So the modern gospel rewards the unrighteous and condemns the righteous-hearted. It is a powerless message that denies any possible victory over sin. It invents a secret Jesus covering that somehow blinds God to the reality of our true state. I don't seek to judge anyone for having believed the lie. I am merely trying to show the right way. I myself was infected with the false gospel virus for a long time. Hence my wish to help others who are similarly ensnared.

I'm coming in at the end of this discussion but here goes anyway. I'm confused by the above statement. I believe Adullam you are talking about someone who says he is a Christian, is that right? and what is your definition of being saved?

Modern Christians seem to be looking towards the bible for an assurance policy rather than seeking to be actually fitted into the kingdom. It is become a religion of personal salvation.

One can be saved many times....but ultimate eternal salvation is conditional on obedience, faith and faithfulness. It is presumptuous to declare something before the time. The race isn't over until it is over. The positions here are divided among they who justify themselves through their own belief (stating that this is what the bible encourages) and they who wait upon the Lord as He is the only One who justifies.

Salvation is a process and one that must be worked out with fear and trembling.

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Joe

And that is the crux of your understanding. Do you take Jesus' words literally all of the time ? When Peter took the words of Jesus literally, he thought he would have to go back into his mothers womb, in order to be born again.

Ah, back for more...

Jesus CORRECTED Nicodemus' understanding in John 3. Jesus did not correct anyone's understanding in John 6. He allowed them to leave, because they didn't want to be open to Christ's words, which He meant literally, truly, truly, and so forth.

Jesus was speaking spiritually, not literally Joe !

According to you, but that is not what the Spirit has told the Church for 2000 years. Aren't you concerned that this has been unanimously taught and proclaimed since the very beginning??? The issue here is a lack of faith in Christ's Words, so you must invent something that appeals more to your personal rationale. There is no metaphorical meaning for "drink my blood" in the Scriptures that makes sense with what Christ is saying.

When Jesus said - "This is my body which is given for you" , he was speaking of his body. But the bread he held up , only represented his body that would be broken for us.

Jesus said "THIS IS MY BODY". Not, "this represents my body". Lack of faith... Lack of humility...

Jesus Christ knew the Law, obviously. The Law states clearly, that the sacrifical lamb's blood was not to be consumed.

OK, so now, to get you on the right path, WHY was the sacrificed blood not to be eaten? What was Christ offering NOW, when He told His disciples they MUST DRINK HIS BLOOD?

And what did the Jews DO with the sacrificed "LAMB" at the Passover??? Did they "metaphorically" ingest the Lamb? And WHO was the Lamb of God, again???? Oh, it makes sense, the issue here is belief or lack thereof.

Yet , you claim that Jesus is telling you that the sacrifical blood is to be consumed. And you claim, that he turned the wine into blood. Yet there is no biblical reference or evidence of this happening whatsoever !

Sure there is. You just prefer not to accept the clear reading.

Righteousness is right thinking. Unrighteousness is wrong thinking. Action is required . The righteous will live by righteousness, according to the understanding of scripture. The unrighteous, will live by the traditions of men and the doctrines of devils.

I am not making any comments about your "traditions of men and the doctrines of devils" that necessarily lead one to think you are unrighteous. But if you insist on that, beware of self-accusation...

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Joe

And that is the crux of your understanding. Do you take Jesus' words literally all of the time ? When Peter took the words of Jesus literally, he thought he would have to go back into his mothers womb, in order to be born again.

Ah, back for more...

Jesus CORRECTED Nicodemus' understanding in John 3. Jesus did not correct anyone's understanding in John 6. He allowed them to leave, because they didn't want to be open to Christ's words, which He meant literally, truly, truly, and so forth.

Jesus was speaking spiritually, not literally Joe !

According to you, but that is not what the Spirit has told the Church for 2000 years. Aren't you concerned that this has been unanimously taught and proclaimed since the very beginning??? The issue here is a lack of faith in Christ's Words, so you must invent something that appeals more to your personal rationale. There is no metaphorical meaning for "drink my blood" in the Scriptures that makes sense with what Christ is saying.

When Jesus said - "This is my body which is given for you" , he was speaking of his body. But the bread he held up , only represented his body that would be broken for us.

Jesus said "THIS IS MY BODY". Not, "this represents my body". Lack of faith... Lack of humility...

Jesus Christ knew the Law, obviously. The Law states clearly, that the sacrifical lamb's blood was not to be consumed.

OK, so now, to get you on the right path, WHY was the sacrificed blood not to be eaten? What was Christ offering NOW, when He told His disciples they MUST DRINK HIS BLOOD?

And what did the Jews DO with the sacrificed "LAMB" at the Passover??? Did they "metaphorically" ingest the Lamb? And WHO was the Lamb of God, again???? Oh, it makes sense, the issue here is belief or lack thereof.

Yet , you claim that Jesus is telling you that the sacrifical blood is to be consumed. And you claim, that he turned the wine into blood. Yet there is no biblical reference or evidence of this happening whatsoever !

Sure there is. You just prefer not to accept the clear reading.

Righteousness is right thinking. Unrighteousness is wrong thinking. Action is required . The righteous will live by righteousness, according to the understanding of scripture. The unrighteous, will live by the traditions of men and the doctrines of devils.

I am not making any comments about your "traditions of men and the doctrines of devils" that necessarily lead one to think you are unrighteous. But if you insist on that, beware of self-accusation...

Hi Joe

Since you take everything so literally in scripture. Let me ask you this -- Are you still literally putting blood over your door, so that the spirit of death does not kill you ? < They did this literally , you know ? !

Of course they ate the sacrifical lamb in the OT literally. But God also told them not to drink the blood of the sacrifical lamb, am I correct here ?

So why would Jesus break the Law of Moses, and claim that they had to literally drink the blood of the lamb of God ?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: ". Aren't you concerned that this has been unanimously taught and proclaimed since the very beginning???"


Hi Joe

Beginning of what Joe ? Man's tradition, yes, I would agree it began with the traditions of men.

Many have made such claims , using the word beginning. But this is a false concept, that originated with men and not of/by God.

 

[francisdesales]

Quote francis: ". Aren't you concerned that this has been unanimously taught and proclaimed since the very beginning???"


Hi Joe

Beginning of what Joe ? Man's tradition, yes, I would agree it began with the traditions of men.

Many have made such claims , using the word beginning. But this is a false concept, that originated with men and not of/by God.

Beginning with the Apostles. They wrote the Scriptures and taught the understanding of them to future disciples. Clearly, they didn't just pass out tracts or 10 verses to memorize. They taught orally how to understand the Scriptures and filled in the blanks and interpreted the meaning. Thus, it should be of concern that the Apostles unanimously taught their pupils that Christ's Body and Blood are literally consumed at the Eucharist.

If the Apostles did NOT teach this orally, the follow up community could not have come to such an unanimous understanding. ALL the Christian writings that mention the Eucharist during the first millenium, beginning with the first century, all mention Christ's real presence in the elements of bread and wine.

The false concept is that you actually know anything about what the Ancient Church actually taught, you are just talking to deny things without any knowledge of what you are saying.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "If the Apostles did NOT teach this orally, the follow up community could not have come to such an unanimous understanding. ALL the Christian writings that mention the Eucharist during the first millenium, beginning with the first century, all mention Christ's real presence in the elements of bread and wine."


Hi Joe

Well then, I guess God for got to tell the Apostles we read about in the NT then. There is no mention of your comments within scripture !

 

[francisdesales]

Quote francis: "If the Apostles did NOT teach this orally, the follow up community could not have come to such an unanimous understanding. ALL the Christian writings that mention the Eucharist during the first millenium, beginning with the first century, all mention Christ's real presence in the elements of bread and wine."


Hi Joe

Well then, I guess God for got to tell the Apostles we read about in the NT then. There is no mention of your comments within scripture !

People who open their mind to Scriptures and accept the ordinary rules of language are quite capable of seeing the we are to eat His Body and drink His Blood, given as bread and wine at the Last Supper. The Bible is not a word-for-word dictation of what the Apostles said. The second generation HEARD the Apostles and taught just what an ordinary person with faith in God would understand - one must eat the eucharistic flesh of Christ to obtain eternal life.

God didn't forget to tell anyone anything. You are inventing requirements that are unnecessary.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "If the Apostles did NOT teach this orally, the follow up community could not have come to such an unanimous understanding. ALL the Christian writings that mention the Eucharist during the first millenium, beginning with the first century, all mention Christ's real presence in the elements of bread and wine."


Hi Joe

Well then, I guess God for got to tell the Apostles we read about in the NT then. There is no mention of your comments within scripture !

People who open their mind to Scriptures and accept the ordinary rules of language are quite capable of seeing the we are to eat His Body and drink His Blood, given as bread and wine at the Last Supper. The Bible is not a word-for-word dictation of what the Apostles said. The second generation HEARD the Apostles and taught just what an ordinary person with faith in God would understand - one must eat the eucharistic flesh of Christ to obtain eternal life.

God didn't forget to tell anyone anything. You are inventing requirements that are unnecessary.

Hi

I see nowhere in scripture, where God wants us to receive Christ through our gullet and into our stomachs, in order to obtain eternal life. : :seehearspeak

 

[Dave...]

Did Christ die for these?

25-27 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The answer is yes. As usual, you aren't taking into consideration the rules of language. Because Jesus died for His sheep does NOT rule out that He died for the SIN OF THE WORLD, which the Bible says He did...

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29

Christ's sacrifice is quite sufficient, more so, in undoing the work of Adam, which was also universal (Romans 5), as I have already said.

Yes, "the world" meaning both Jew and Gentile. Not every individual. "The world" almost never means every individual. Jesus answered the question as if it were asked to Him personally and specifically. He explicitly said that He layed down His life for His sheep. Those people in vs. 25-27, He tells them clearly, you are not My sheep. 2+2. Sorry, Francis, but you claimed Jesus layed down His life for everyone. I gave a chrystal clear example of some who He didn't lay down His life for.

It simply amazes how well you and Drew have got your spin techniques down, you who "accept the ordinary rules of language" do a great job of avoiding it when it's convenient to you.

Tell me, did the whole world, meaning every individual, including the American Eskimo, the American Indian, the tribesman of the deep African wildlands, the Chinese, and of course the Aboriginal People, did they "all" go to sign up the this cencus?

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.

------------------

"You must decide how effective the Cross was meant to be. Where do you want to limit the Cross - in its scope and so be able to say that it was 100% successful in its power or do you want to severely limit its success and confess that there are men now in hell suffering for sins for which Christ has already suffered."

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

 

[Adullam]

Start with what is necessary, then do what's possible....and suddenly you are doing the impossible. -- St. Francis of Asissi

 

[francisdesales]

I see nowhere in scripture, where God wants us to receive Christ through our gullet and into our stomachs, in order to obtain eternal life. : :seehearspeak

Of course you don't - you choose not to...

 

[Mysteryman]

I see nowhere in scripture, where God wants us to receive Christ through our gullet and into our stomachs, in order to obtain eternal life. : :seehearspeak

Of course you don't - you choose not to...

HI

Nor can you show from scripture that eternal life is obtain by literally eating his body and drinking his blood literaly, is the way in which one obtains eternal life !

You once said that God wants to look at the heart. Why have you changed from the heart , to the stomach ? Do you think that our hearts are in our stomach's ? :rolling

Romans 10:9 and 10

 

[francisdesales]

I see nowhere in scripture, where God wants us to receive Christ through our gullet and into our stomachs, in order to obtain eternal life. : :seehearspeak

Of course you don't - you choose not to...

HI

Nor can you show from scripture that eternal life is obtain by literally eating his body and drinking his blood literaly, is the way in which one obtains eternal life !

:crazy

John 6 clearly states that one must chew with one's teeth the Body of Christ. Note the Greek used.

Do you really think you are the first non-believer in the Words of Christ, and this is all new to us???

Oh, gosh, what shall I say????

The world will always be filled with people as yourself who walk away from the Words of Christ, just as the Jews.

 

[Ahuli]

I see nowhere in scripture, where God wants us to receive Christ through our gullet and into our stomachs, in order to obtain eternal life. : :seehearspeak

HI

Nor can you show from scripture that eternal life is obtain by literally eating his body and drinking his blood literaly, is the way in which one obtains eternal life !

:crazy

John 6 clearly states that one must chew with one's teeth the Body of Christ. Note the Greek used.

Do you really think you are the first non-believer in the Words of Christ, and this is all new to us???

Oh, gosh, what shall I say????

The world will always be filled with people as yourself who walk away from the Words of Christ, just as the Jews.

Prove from John 6 that those who believed HIM in that very instance started to chew on HIM this very instance. Thank you.

 

[Mysteryman]

I see nowhere in scripture, where God wants us to receive Christ through our gullet and into our stomachs, in order to obtain eternal life. : :seehearspeak

Of course you don't - you choose not to...

HI

Nor can you show from scripture that eternal life is obtain by literally eating his body and drinking his blood literaly, is the way in which one obtains eternal life !

:crazy

John 6 clearly states that one must chew with one's teeth the Body of Christ. Note the Greek used.

Do you really think you are the first non-believer in the Words of Christ, and this is all new to us???

Oh, gosh, what shall I say????

The world will always be filled with people as yourself who walk away from the Words of Christ, just as the Jews.[/quote]



Hi Joe

John 6:29 - "believeth"

John 6:35 - "cometh" to me shall never hunger and "believeth" on me shall never thirst

John 6:32 - "true bread from heaven"

John 6:50 - "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat (metaphorically) thereof, and not die" < Notice here it says not die, nothing about being hungry.

John 6:51 - "eat this bread" < again , speaking metaphorically. "I will give for the life of the world" < Past tense and present tense and future tense.

John 6:53 and 54 are both speaking metaphorically !


Now comes the interesting verse - John 6:56 - "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him" < If this was speaking literally, this statement then would make no sense whatsoever ! For when one eats literally, only that which you eat is in you. Yet, this verse states, that if you eat his flesh and drink his blood. Not only will he dwell in us, but we will dwell in him. So if taken literally, this verse would be saying I have to eat him and he has to eat me, in order for us to dwell in him and he in us. < Notice that this is totally irrational to think this way !

Jesus Christ was speaking spiritually, not literally. And as long as one is not influenced by man made doctrines and doctrines of devils . There is no problem whatsoever understanding that Jesus was speaking spiritually instead of literally here !

Jesus goes on to say in John 6:63 - "It is the spirit that quickenth; the flesh profiteth nothing : the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life" < Jesus didn't leave any room for private interpretation here ! !

Yet, over 2000 years later. What do we see ? Private interpretation ! And the doctrine of men and of devils ! How sad it is !

 

[Adullam]

Perhaps a new thread entitled "the holy diet" could be started to continue this new discussion development. This thread is exploring the biblical exhortation to put on righteousness.

 

[Adullam]

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2 Tim 3:16

Notice here that Paul seems to encourage OT type righteousnes. That of doing what is right. He doesn't seem threatened by this as moderns today. Could this avoidance of any righteousness apart from Jesus acceptance have a bearing on the state of the church in our time?

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Joe

John 6:29 - "believeth"

John 6:35 - "cometh" to me shall never hunger and "believeth" on me shall never thirst

John 6:32 - "true bread from heaven"

Indeed. And the beginning of the Bread of Life discourse is about believing that God will provide something BETTER than the manna, not a symbol that was just a metaphor. Metaphors do not have the power to bring life to us.

John 6:50 - "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat (metaphorically) thereof, and not die" < Notice here it says not die, nothing about being hungry.

John 6:51 - "eat this bread" < again , speaking metaphorically. "I will give for the life of the world" < Past tense and present tense and future tense.

Stop adding in your "metaphor" stuff and let the text speak for itself...

Of course, God is the source of our life - and now, if you continue on verse 51 where you conveniently stopped, since you refuse to listen to the Word of God, so you just ignore the parts you don't approve of.....


I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jesus will give bread, alright, but it is HIS FLESH.

NOT SOME METAPHOR!!!

Bread - flesh... Hmmm. I wonder if the Apostles remembered that when Jesus stood in front of them with a piece of bread and said "THIS IS MY BODY"... :o

Pretty clear to those who are open to the Word.

There is really nothing more to say, except that Jesus CONTINUES TO EMPHASIZE the CHEWING and RENDING of His flesh with your teeth... There is no metaphors here that COULD EVEN MAKE SENSE, since "eating one's flesh" to the biblical meaning, is to persecute someone. Not your invention.

But like Jesus said, only those whom the Father calls will have such a faith.