The Law, whad does that mean?

[Servant_2000]

I keep seeing popping up in many discussions "Torah"

So exactly what does the Bible mean when it says the word Law?

I can see some will answer.."The Torah", yes? Good.

LAW - TORAH - NOMOS
What do the writers of the Bible mean when they say the word Law (Greek = Nomos. Hebrew = Torah)

Matthew 5;17-18
17 ¶ "Do not think that I came to destroy the LAW or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the LAW till all is fulfilled.

Sabbatarians in general will tell us non-Sabbatarians, that the word Law here means the Ten commandments. However they change the meaning of the word to fit there beliefs as you go through the Bible, For instance Romans 10:4.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the LAW for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Here some say it means the ceremonial LAW.

Well what does the word LAW mean. In the Septuagent (Which is the oldest Greek version of the old Testament) the word LAW or Greek word Nomos is used for the Hebrew word Torah which is also translated into English as Law. So the Greek word law (Nomos) is the same as the Hebrew word Law (Torah).

The Torah is the first five books of the bible and it includes 613 Commandments, these are referred to as the Book of the Law.
1. Genesis has 3 commandments.
2. Exodus has 111 commandments.
3. Leviticus has 247 commandments.
4. Numbers has 52 commandments.
5. Deuteronomy has 200 Commandments.

This is a total of 613 commandments. The Torah also includes the Ten Commandments or Decologue (Example A) which is a subset of the Book of the law (Whole Law).

Example A
--------------------------------------------------

Ten Commandments-----Book of law (13 Commandments)
#1 No other Gods------#26 No other Gods
#2 No carved image----#27 No carved image
---Not bow down-------#28 Not bow down
---Not serve ---------#29 Not serve
#3 Name Lord in vain--#30 Name Lord in vain
#4 Sabbath keep Holy--#31 Sabbath keep Holy
---Do no work---------#32 Do no work
#5 Honor Mom & Dad----#33 Honor Mom & Dad
#6 Shall not murder---#34 Shall not murder
#7 No adultery--------#35 No adultery
#8 Shall not steal-----#36 Shall not steal
#9 No false witness----#37 No false witness
#10 No coveting--------#38 No coveting

So the Ten Commandment's which are a subset of the Book of the Law went inside the Ark of the Covenant, while the Book of the Law (Torah or first five books of the law) was put in the side of the Ark of the Covenant.

What did Jesus and the Apostles mean by the word law. I have found out that the best way to understand what a word in the Bible means is to go through the whole Bible and see how it is used and then you will find out what it means, and since Jesus said it many times, let us just look at the word as he used it, and then the apostles.

JESUS

1. Matthew 12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?

Here Jesus uses the word Law to refer to a ceremonial law in the book of numbers and moral or ceremonial law the 4th Commandment of the Decologue.

NUMBERS 28:9,10. = COMMANDMENT 402 in book of the law.
EXODUS 20;8 = COMMANDMENT #4 in the Ten Commandments or Decologue.

2. MATT 22:36-38
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him," `You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 "This is the first and great commandment.
39 "And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

Here Jesus uses the word law to refer to a moral law found in the book of Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

DEUTERONOMY 6:5. = COMMANDMENT 418 in book of the law.
LEVITICUS 19:18 = COMMANDMENT 243 in book of the Law.
(NOTICE THAT THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENT ARE IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENT'S OR DECOLOGUE.)

3. Luke 2:22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord Here Jesus uses the word law to refer to a Health or Ceremonial law found in the book of Leviticus.

LEVITICUS 12:2-8. = COMMANDMENT 166 in the book of the law.

4. JOHN 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?"

Here Jesus uses the word law to refer to the Ten Commandments or a Moral law found in the book of Exodus.

EXODUS 20:13. = COMMANDMENT #6 IN THE DECALOGUE OR TEN COMMANDMENTS. THIS IS ALSO COMMANDMENT # 34 In the book of the law.

5. JOHN 7:23 "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

Here Jesus uses the word law to refer to both the Sabbath or Ten Commandments or moral law or ceremonial and the ceremonial law of circumcision in the book of Genesis and Exodus.

GENESIS 17:10. = COMMANDMENT 2 in the book of the law.
EXODUS 20:8-11. = COMMANDMENT Number 4 in the TEN COMMANDMENTS. THIS IS ALSO COMMANDMENT #32 in the book of the law.

6. JOHN 8:4-5
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?"

Here Jesus uses the word law to refer to both the Moral law or ceremonial law of the Ten Commandments and the civil law in the book of Exodus and Leviticus.

LEVITICUS 20:10. = COMMANDMENT #260 in the Book of the law.
EXODUS 20:14. = COMMANDMENT number 7 in the TEN COMMANDMENTS. THIS IS ALSO COMMANDMENT #35 in the book of the law.

7. JOHN 8:17 "It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.

Here Jesus uses the word law to refer civil law in the book of Deuteronomy.
DEUTERONOMY 19:15. = COMMANDMENT # 523 in the book of the law.

APOSTLES

8. I Corinthians 9:9 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."

Is it oxen that God is concerned about?

Here the Apostle uses the word law to refer to a civil law in the book of Deuteronomy 25:4. = COMMANDMENT # 596 in the book of the law.

9. Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

The Apostle uses this word law to refer to a curse. This is a curse not a Commandment.

DEUTERONOMY 27:26. = CURSE NOT COMMANDMENT. If you do not obey all in the Book of the Law.

10. Hebrews 7:5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;

Here the writer uses the word law to refer to the ceremonial law in the book of Numbers 18:21-26. = COMMANDMENT # 396 in the book of the law.

11. James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. Whole Law refers to Book of the Law.

--------------------------------------------------

So the Word law as used by Jesus and the Apostles is this:

CEREMONIAL LAW - Example# 1,3,5,10.
MORAL LAW - Example# 2,4,5,6.
CIVIL LAW - Example #6,7,8.
HEALTH LAW - Example # 3.

It includes all five books of the Torah:

GENESIS example # 5. EXODUS example #4,6.
LEVITICUS example #2,3,6. NUMBERS example # 1,10.
DEUTERONOMY example # 2,7,8,9. or the whole Torah or Book of the Law.

So the word Law as used by Jesus and the Apostles mean's the ceremonial, moral, civil and health law's, that are in the Book of the Lawthat is GENESIS, EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS, DEUTERONOMY.

It includes the 613 commandments in the Book of the Law and the tables of stone the Ten Commandments. So the word Law according to Jesus and the Apostles means the whole law that was given at mount Sinai.

MATT 5;17-18
17 ¶ "Do not think that I came to destroy the LAW or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the LAW till ALL is fulfilled.

So not one jot or one tittle or the whole Book of the Law was fulfilled in Christ or it is still binding. In a nut shell it includes the whole OLD COVENANT Law given at mount Sinai (Exodus 4:9-13). So the word ALL (till all be fulfilled) means the whole law Just as James and Paul says (James 2:10 and Galatians 5:3) .

 

[wavy]

I think you have made the same contradiction that Walter Martin makes in his book when he argues this against SDA's.

You say the word "law" refers to all of it and that it is not divided into "moral" etc and that it is all a part of a whole.

Yet you still make the distinction. The Torah is not divided like this. That is man's terminology. Torah is Torah, Genesis-Deuteronomy (and actually Genesis-Revelation too). So if it's all done away with, it's all done away with. That includes both Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Imo, there is no such thing as "moral law" and "ceremonial law" and "civil law" and "health" law (and there isn't, it is not in the bible). So I'd like to know which parts are done away or "fulfilled" and which are not.

Because this whole argument is fruitless against SDA's of some of it is done away and some of it is not.

 

[cj]

Imo, there is no such thing as "moral law" and "ceremonial law" and "civil law" and "health" law (and there isn't, it is not in the bible). So I'd like to know which parts are done away or "fulfilled" and which are not.

Thankfully your opinion carrys no eternal weight.

Try Jesus' words....

Matthew 22:40, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John; from that time the kingdom of God is proclaimed as the gospel, and everyone forces his way into it."

..... The law and the prophets.


And of the Law, scriptures tell us....

Luke  1 : 6, "And they were both righteous before God, walking in.... all the commandments...... and ordinances of the Lord, blameless."

The Old Testament law is generally called "the law"; its contents are divided into three categories: commandments, statutes, and ordinances. Commandments, as God's basic commands, are the general principles of the law. There are ten commandments (Exo. 20:2-17). Statutes, or laws, regulations, set forth, explain in detail, and supplement the commandments, as recorded in Exo. 20:22-26. Ordinances, like statutes, set forth, explain in detail, and supplement the commandments, and, in addition, include verdicts, as recorded in Exo. 21:1--23:19. Ordinances minus the verdicts become statutes. The Greek word for ordinances here is the same as that in Rom. 2:26 and in Heb. 9:1, 10.


1 Kings  9 : 4, "And as for you, if you walk before Me, as David your father walked, with a perfect and upright heart by observing...... all that I have commanded you...... and keep My statutes...... and My ordinances,..."

Luke 24:44, "And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you,.... that all the things written in...... the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms...... concerning Me...... must be fulfilled."



In love,
cj

 

[Servant_2000]

I think you have made the same contradiction that Walter Martin makes in his book when he argues this against SDA's.

You say the word "law" refers to all of it and that it is not divided into "moral" etc and that it is all a part of a whole.

Yet you still make the distinction. The Torah is not divided like this. That is man's terminology. Torah is Torah, Genesis-Deuteronomy (and actually Genesis-Revelation too). So if it's all done away with, it's all done away with. That includes both Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Imo, there is no such thing as "moral law" and "ceremonial law" and "civil law" and "health" law (and there isn't, it is not in the bible). So I'd like to know which parts are done away or "fulfilled" and which are not.

Because this whole argument is fruitless against SDA's of some of it is done away and some of it is not.

Wrong assumptions there Wavy...

Don't you think it's still appropriate to speak of different aspects or features of the law? Here are some examples:

1. MORAL aspects, such as honoring Mom and Dad.

2. CEREMONIAL aspects, such as the Sabbath, whose ritualistic function it was to act as a SIGN of the covenant by being a SEAL on the law.

3. CIVIL aspects, such as this one: "Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together." Deuteronomy 22:11, NIV.

I think it wise and necessary, especially when dealing with mystified people, whether Adventist or not, to ALWAYS distinguish the MORAL aspects of the law from all other aspects or features.

Otherwise they will almost always accuse you of trying to "toss out" or "make of none effect" or "make void" those aspects or features of the law that form a part of the character and personality of Jesus Christ Himself: Do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, do not covet, do not commit adultery, etc. Jesus of Nazareth did not do these things. Therefore, CHRIST IS THE LAW.

Holding this thought in mind, read the following:

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways [including the spoken/carved/written Ten], in these last days has spoken to us in His son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. And HE IS THE RADIANCE OF HIS GLORY AND THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE." Hebrews 1:1-3, NAS.

(And you thought "the law is the transcript of God's character," with the Fourth Commandment boasting a special halo around it, didn't you?)

For me, the most telling or winning argument is this one:

CHRIST as the eternal Son of God, co-equal with the Father -- "For in Him all the fulness of the Diety dwells in bodily form (Colossians 2:9, NAS) -- IS HIMSELF THE LAW.

He always has been the law, He is now the law, and He always will be the law.

And He is now personified in the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

 

[Servant_2000]

Here is a list of Law's that were in the Book of the Law or the "ceremonial Law" that were beside the ark of the covenant. They (many Sabbatarians)say that these were done away with at the cross.

This is what you give them when they say you mean we can kill, steal, and rape.

Book of the Law commandments besides the Ark.

Commandment # 1 (Genesis 1:28) Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it.
You mean we can not procreate.

Commandment # 54 (Exodus 22:4) mandates a special fine on thieves who steal oxen or sheep.
You mean we can not be compensated for what a thief steals.
Commandment #55 (Exodus 22:4) The commandment to hold a person financially responsible for the damage caused by his livestock.
You mean I am not responsible for what I own when it does damage.
Commandment #57 (Exo 22:8) The specifying of responsibilities for one who is the guardian of another's property.
You mean I am not responsible for others property when they give it to me in faith.
Commandment #62 (Exo 22:17) The prohibition of witchcraft.
You mean that witchcraft is OK.
Commandment #65 (Exo 22:21) The prohibition against oppressing a widow or orphan.
You mean it is Ok to oppress widows and orphan's.
Commandment #69 (Exo 22:27) The prohibition against cursing God.
You mean we can curse God.
Commandment #74 (Exo 23:1) The commandment not to spread false rumors.
You mean it is Ok to spread false rumors.
Commandment #75 (Exo 23;1) The prohibition against helping a guilty man gain acquittal.
You mean is is Ok to help a guilty man gain acquittal.
Commandment #81 (Exo 23:6) The prohibition forbidding judges to discriminate against a poor person in judicial proceedings.
You mean it is Ok to discriminate.
Commandment #83 (Exo 23:8) The prohibition against judges taking bribes.
You mean it is Ok to take bribes.
Commandment #122 (Lev 5:1) The duty to offer testimony if one has pertinent knowledge about a crime.
You mean we do not have to give this testimony.
Commandment #130 (Lev 5:21-23) The commandment to return property that one took dishonestly.
You mean it is Ok to take property dishonestly.
Commandment # 148 (Lev 7:26) The prohibition against consuming an animal's blood.
You mean it is Ok to eat animal's blood.
Commandment #156 (Lev 11:10-11) The prohibition against eating fish that lack these criteria.
You mean we can eat CATFISH.
Commandment #208 (Lev 18:21) The prohibition against sacrificing one's child to the idol know as molech.
You mean we can sacrifice our children.
Commandment # 209 (Lev 18:22) Prohibition of male homosexuality.
You mean homosexuality is Ok.
Commandment # 243 THIS IS THE SECOND GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW. (Levitucs 19:18) The commandment to love one's fellow human being as yourself.
You mean we don't have to love other Christians?
Oh that is how that came about, Babylon whore and all.
Commandment #364 (Numbers 5:6-7) The obligation to verbally confess ones sins, and to undo the wrong one has done.
You mean we don't have to confess our sin and make things right.
Commandment # 412 (Num 35:32) The prohibition against accepting money from a murderer to save him or her from the death sentence.
You mean it is Ok to offer money.
Commandment #417 (Deut 6:4) The commandment to acknowledge that God is one.
You mean we can say he is many.
Commandment #418 THIS IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW (Deuteronomy 6:5) The commandment to love God.
You mean we don't have to love Him.
Commandment #419 ( Deuteronomy 6:7) The command to teach Torah to one's children.
You mean we can forget the Bible.
Commandment #424 (Deuteronomy 6:16) The prohibition against testing God.
You mean we can test him.
Commandment #432 (Deuteronomy 10:20) The obligation to be in awe, a kind of reverent fear, of God.
You mean we do not have to fear God.
Commandment #454 and 455 (Deuteronomy 13;1) The prohibition against adding to or subtracting from the Torahs Laws.
Maybe that is why Sabbatarians add and subtract to the old Law.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Servant and cj. Don't get so hung up on this, fellahs. If you don't like the law then don't keep it. What's the deal with you guys? I'm going to church tomorrow (Saturday) to worship God whether you guys, Paul, or whoever like it or not. Don't get your knickers in such a knot and enjoy your Sunday worship. Sheesh!

 

[SputnikBoy]

Guy #1: Hey, I've got an idea. Let us swap one day for another and then call those who don't go along with the new day 'evil'.

Guy #2: Hey, I like that ...that will show them!

Guy #3: Um, does that make sense?

Guys #1 & #2: Who said that it had to make sense?

 

[Imagican]

Wavy,

Ok, I like reading your posts. You seem to have spent much time in your studies and I admire this in an individual. At least it shows that you have the persistence to at least 'try' and understand. That is refreshing.

But, in order to carry on and take what you say seriously, I need to know what you mean when you say that we are to 'keep' torah, but not all of it.

So please, do your fellow forum members a favor and define 'exactly' what parts of torah you believe are valid and which parts aren't. In other words, give us a brief, (or not so brief), description of what 'law' we are to follow and what we are not to follow. And it would be helpful if you were also to offer an explanation as to why you believe that parts are to be 'kept' and other parts 'are not to be kept'.

Thanks,

MEC

 

[cj]

Servant and cj. Don't get so hung up on this, fellahs. If you don't like the law then don't keep it. What's the deal with you guys? I'm going to church tomorrow (Saturday) to worship God whether you guys, Paul, or whoever like it or not. Don't get your knickers in such a knot and enjoy your Sunday worship. Sheesh!

See, you miss the point.

I don't know about anyone else, but...... my issue with your false doctrine is the folly that comes out of it.

For example,.... read the folly of your own words....

"If you don't like the law then don't keep it."

This statement of yours pretty much amounts to a lie.

I love the law of God, how could I not. I love God.

But your holding to a false doctrine issues in your speaking false words, or in other words it turns you into a liar.

Now here is where I take issue.

And why?

Because the scripture say contend for the faith, contend for truth.

You lie, I contend.

Its that simple.

And this is my position,... come out of your Babylonian ways and thus save yourself.


And guess what, in doing so you will find yourself in true worship, for worship is in truth and spirit.


Look at the folly of your ways....

First you tell a lie.... "If you don't like the law then don't keep it."

Then you declare that you worship God..... I'm going to church tomorrow (Saturday) to worship God...


The folly of your false doctrine is that you really don't know whether you're coming or going.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

Don't you think it's still appropriate to speak of different aspects or features of the law?

No. Not in the way it is usually divided. There are greater commandments and there are lesser commandments in the Torah. But it is not divided. The main, key, moral principle of all Torah is just to do it with your whole heart, obeying Yahweh.

So it's all "moral".

You can make the division. Nothing wrong with that. It only becomes wrong when you apply that type of thinking to the scripture (since it is not in the scripture). Yahweh doesn't divide it this way.

You can't say, "well, these are the moral ones, and what seems moral is all i have to do and that'll be enough". Unfortunately, this is not in the bible.

Otherwise they will almost always accuse you of trying to "toss out" or "make of none effect" or "make void" those aspects or features of the law that form a part of the character and personality of Jesus Christ Himself: Do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, do not covet, do not commit adultery, etc. Jesus of Nazareth did not do these things. Therefore, CHRIST IS THE LAW.

His personality and character is something we should definately mimick, no mistake about it. That is what he came for.

But we seem to forget that with his personality and character, he stood obedient to the Torah because Yahweh commanded it.

(And you thought "the law is the transcript of God's character," with the Fourth Commandment boasting a special halo around it, didn't you?)

Who? me?

He always has been the law, He is now the law, and He always will be the law.

Indeed. In a way I guess. It would technically be no different than him being the "Word".

But thinking about how he is the Torah personified is not the point (because this was always the truth; it didn't become true after the cross). The point is that being the living Torah, he stayed obedient to Yahweh's Word. Even the least aspects, whether they were moral, ceremonial, civil, health etc. He showed us how to do it.

 

[wavy]

But, in order to carry on and take what you say seriously, I need to know what you mean when you say that we are to 'keep' torah, but not all of it.

So please, do your fellow forum members a favor and define 'exactly' what parts of torah you believe are valid and which parts aren't. In other words, give us a brief, (or not so brief), description of what 'law' we are to follow and what we are not to follow. And it would be helpful if you were also to offer an explanation as to why you believe that parts are to be 'kept' and other parts 'are not to be kept'.

Depends. Every commandment does not apply to everyone. Some are impossible to keep (like anything tying into the temple and the Levitical priesthood, which will both be restored in some form, btw).

That's the point of reading it :-D Not just Genesis-Deuteronomy but all of it. I used to argue with a guy named "SegaMac" and he hated my guts because I promoted Torah. He said something like "should we build taberncacles and put the ark in it???!!!"

This question is absurd. The tabernacle was a one time event, a command directly given to Moses. You can't "keep" that. It's not a commandment (although it is in the Torah).

I don't know, I believe you just have to have the knowledge of Elohim (Hosea 6:6) to be able to rightly divide and judge righteous judgment. But to go too far and say a whole portion of Yahweh's Word is a load of crap that was only given because of a type of culture (as if Yahweh adapts, changes, or grows with culture) and was only given so we can think about Messiah is crazy to me. "Thinking" about Messiah is not the point. Lip service and claiming how much you love Messiah and just feeling so "spiritual" and feeling "just oh so good" about his perfection is not what Yahweh tells us to do in his Word.

We should take instruction from all of it and apply it all to our lives. Too easy to just say, "well it's 'fulfilled' in Messiah as i sit and think about him and say his name in 'church' and just feel so much at peace".

We are to be set-apart from the rest of the world. We have again adapted Yahweh to our culture. One with mere "moral character" as the right thing. Ya know, just have "good morals" and you'll be alright. Almost every religion and philosophy teaches "moral character".

 

[gingercat]

Wavy,

I know all other religions have moral laws. But Christianity is very different, because of Jesus. No matter how much we try we can never go into His kingdom if we don't accept Him. He is our Savior. Besides, His teachings are much superior to any other religions too. that is just another big blessing for us.

 

[gingercat]

And I would like to add that I believe if we follow Jesus and His disciples' teachings in the NT we never make mistakes. That's how I keep the law, beacuse Jesus got rid of many of the OT laws.

 

[wavy]

But Christianity is very different, because of Jesus.

Exactly. And that's the only difference. You merely profess the name of a different icon.

No matter how much we try we can never go into His kingdom if we don't accept Him. He is our Savior.

I know this. This makes no difference to some one of another religion. They have their icons and gods too.

Besides, His teachings are much superior to any other religions too.

Give me an example. Tell me why this is so. Many of his teachings are not even his.

 

[wavy]

And I would like to add that I believe if we follow Jesus and His disciples' teachings in the NT we never make mistakes. That's how I keep the law, beacuse Jesus got rid of many of the OT laws.

Firstly, the Messiah and the disciples taught out of the scripture. Their teachings weren't "new".

Secondly, I believe Yahshua said that it was easier for heaven and earth to pass than one [insert anything] to pass from the Torah.

 

[gingercat]

But Christianity is very different, because of Jesus.

Exactly. And that's the only difference. You merely profess the name of a different icon.

No matter how much we try we can never go into His kingdom if we don't accept Him. He is our Savior.

I know this. This makes no difference to some one of another religion. They have their icons and gods too.

[quote:cd1bf]Besides, His teachings are much superior to any other religions too.

Give me an example. Tell me why this is so. Many of his teachings are not even his.[/quote:cd1bf]

I am in love with His teachings; the most valuable one is that He tells us to love others first. We should not expect to be loved back when we love others. I believe other religions are eye for eye and tooth for tooth.

He came down to correct how we are making mistakes following God. So we were the one did not know exactly how we should follow God in the OT.

 

[wavy]

I am in love with His teachings; the most valuable one is that He tells us to love others first. We should not expect to be loved back when we love others.

This is not unique to Christianity. Truth. But not unique.

I believe other religions are eye for eye and tooth for tooth.

They should be. The Sadducess thought this meant revenge and literally maiming one another. The Pharisees accepted it as equitable restitution. Judging fairly.

Messiah was not saying "eye for eye" is wrong. He is contradicting other teachings on it.

So we were the one did not know exactly how we should follow God in the OT.

This is untrue. How do you come to this conclusion?

 

[gingercat]

And I would like to add that I believe if we follow Jesus and His disciples' teachings in the NT we never make mistakes. That's how I keep the law, beacuse Jesus got rid of many of the OT laws.

Firstly, the Messiah and the disciples taught out of the scripture. Their teachings weren't "new".

Secondly, I believe Yahshua said that it was easier for heaven and earth to pass than one [insert anything] to pass from the Torah.

Yes, they were not new, but Jesus taught His disciples directly what they should follow and not to follow of the OT laws because many pharisees and scribes were not following the right way. I believe if we try to follow OT laws we will be making the same mistakes what the OT people did.

BTW, what is your denomination Wavy?

 

[wavy]

Yes, they were not new, but Jesus taught His disciples directly what they should follow and not to follow of the OT laws because many pharisees and scribes were not following the right way.

No, not to not follow the Torah (which is not "ot law" but scripture). Just not to follow it in the perverted way of some of the Pharisees and scribes.

I believe if we try to follow OT laws we will be making the same mistakes what the OT people did.

What do you mean? Could you explain this to me? I'm serious. Genuine question.

BTW, what is your denomination Wavy?

"Wavy's Views" #10. :-D

 

[Servant_2000]

Don't you think it's still appropriate to speak of different aspects or features of the law?

No. Not in the way it is usually divided. There are greater commandments and there are lesser commandments in the Torah. But it is not divided. The main, key, moral principle of all Torah is just to do it with your whole heart, obeying Yahweh.

So it's all "moral".

I do not make divisions of the law...but there are "divisions" or different aspects of the law.

Wavy..be patient before you make assumption's ok?

Hebrews shows that the law (Torah) was one complete "ball of wax."

At first, one may think that the author of Hebrews is referring merely to the sacrificial system.

Hebrews 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar.
14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 9:19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people.
20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."
21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.
22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

At this point SDAs will say, Well, that is not speaking of the 10 Commandments, but only of the ceremonial law.

Read further:

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).
9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The Book of Hebrews deals with the SUPERIORITY of Christ to the old order--the sanctuary with all of its ceremonies and rituals. The author here states that the old order was not able to deal with SIN, yet we are perfected by Christ's sacrifice. Where does the conviction of SIN come from?

Romans 5:13 ... sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Romans 4:14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,
15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Is this the CEREMONIAL law to which Paul refers? Obviously not. So if the author of Hebrews is speaking of the law not being able to deal with sin, it is not the cermonial law to which (s)he refers, but the entire law of God, specifically in this instance, the "moral" law. (Don't you just love that terminology? Is there an "immoral" law?

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:
16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
17 Then He adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Logically, even SDAs have to agree that this refers to the "moral" law. Was there a distinction between the "ceremonial" law that the author spoke of in previous verses and the "law" mentioned here? No, there wasn't. Law is law. And our brother James says that anyone who breaks the smallest and most insignificant of the laws is guilty of them all.

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

I just love the book of Hebrews. It is well worth a complete reading once a month or more, the theme being the complete superiority of Jesus Christ to all of the "shadows" before. (Notice verse 10:1 says that the entire law is a shadow of the Reality of Jesus Christ.) Thank God we no longer have to live in the shadows; we live in the Light of the Son!