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Servant_2000
Guest
SputnikBoy said:
I'll enjoy my Sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, and saturday worship..Sputnick...
But while in this here subject, can you stay on topic?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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I'll enjoy my Sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, and saturday worship..Sputnick...
But while in this here subject, can you stay on topic?
G
gingercat
Guest
wavy said:
"Wavy's Views" #10. :-D[/quote:1ec81]
Wavy, if God's people knew and understood how to follow God's law, they would have understood Jesus much better than they did. Most of them did not understand Jesus bacause they did not understand God's teachings. That's how I read the Bible in over all.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Servant_2000 said:
But, ISN'T the Sabbath command the topic? What other part of God's Law do you have a problem with? Please, tell me in plain English.
By the way, how interesting that Sunday was the only day you chose to capitalize.
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Servant_2000
Guest
[/quote:21080]SputnikBoy said:
What's more interesting is your nitpicking on my typing. It doesn't matter if I capitalized or not..that isn't the point now was it?
BTW SpuntnickBoy...
I'm not wanting to point others away from the law and toward Christ. I'm trying to point others to the fact that the end of the law is Christ, that the law is a shadow pointing to Christ, that the law is a tutor (even babysitter!) leading to Christ, that Christ fulfilled the law completely and then some, and many other similar points -- but never to point others away from something that is pointing to Christ.
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Servant_2000
Guest
SputnikBoy said:
Spuntnikboy...
Did you keep the Sabbath perfectly?
Was your mind perfectly centered on holy thoughts from sundown to sundown? You never thought about or do your own pleasures? What criteria did you use? If you are using the rules from the 613 laws of the Old Covenant as your guide, wouldn't it stand to reason that you should abide by the remainder of all those laws?
Just curious...
C
cj
Guest
Servant_2000 said:
SputNik was busted before he even got started,......... "Go into the world" does not mean go meet as a seperated. denominated group.
In love,
cj
G
gingercat
Guest
Servant, I cannot speak for sputenic, but I understand why he asked that question. Your questions does not sound like Jesus followers. Jesus wants us to follow all of His teachings and to be perfect and to be holy ect. etc.
No we can never be perfect like He commands us to but at least we should strive to be one. People who are using "legalism" or "legalists" seems to have the same kind of mentality. What you are doing is persecuting faithful believers. It is so wrong. (I would like to use the words what the Bible uses but if I do I will be banned or get warnings.)
No we can never be perfect like He commands us to but at least we should strive to be one. People who are using "legalism" or "legalists" seems to have the same kind of mentality. What you are doing is persecuting faithful believers. It is so wrong. (I would like to use the words what the Bible uses but if I do I will be banned or get warnings.)
I
Imagican
Guest
Without 'God's laws', man would have NEVER KNOWN SIN. Without the KNOWLEDGE of sin, man would have NEVER recognized a "NEED" for forgiveness. Without the NEED for forgiveness, man would have NEVER recognized Christ. Without Christ, we were separated from God by sin.
The law was the means which God used to teach man. We still have those laws. We WILL obey those laws if we KNOW God. NOT simply because they are laws, but in SPITE of the laws, through LOVE.
We can not obey all of God's law through 'our' will. Only through a 'change' can we please God through our obedience, not by our 'will'. The change that is needed is 're-birth' in Christ.
Once we accept Christ into our hearts, we will begin to change. NO, 'WE' will not 'cause' the change. God will change our hearts and through this change we will begin to obey Him. NO, not through our will, but through His love.
Law followed through blind obedience for fear of punishment means NOTHING to God. The law followed by the changing of ones heart through LOVE means EVERYTHING. Thus, those that are 'reborn' are given a 'new heart', one that is circumcised. What does this mean?
It means that those that accept Christ into their hearts and begin a 'new' relationship with the Father are members of a NEW COVENANT. A covenant that has brought about a NEW means of forgiveness. A means that, 'offered once', is for all time. A covenant that allows man 'BACK' in the sight of God, whereas the law and sin that resulted from it, hid Him from us.
We were told when law was 'in effect', that it would NOT always be so. We were foretold of a time in the future when God's laws would no longer be written in stone, but written in the hearts of those that loved Him. That time was after the death and resurrection of Christ.
This is what 'fulfillment' was. Christ suffering the punishment that was brought about 'by the law'. He died for ALL SIN. His death finished the law. Why do you think that He told us that we ARE ALL GUILTY of breaking EVERY LAW? To show us the importance of our NEED for forgiveness through the LOVE OF GOD.
Sin separated us from the Father. Christ dying for ALL SIN allowed us a 'fresh start' with the Father. Once again we can develope a relationship with the Father REGARDLESS of the law. If this were NOT SO, we would still be offering daily, weekly, and yearly sacrifices to NO AVAIL.
Now that we have been restored as children of God, we may KNOW God and love Him. If we do this, as our hearts change, so will our desires. As our desires change through our love for God, so will our thoughts and actions. This is the way in which we are to follow the law. Through LOVE. The more we love and are loved, the more we will change. NOT through shear will to do God's will, but through an understanding of God's will.
The more we love the more we learn of love and the more we will change through the conviction of our hearts once our love is given to God. A good student will learn what is taught and follow it. NOT because they have to, but because through this learning it becomes WHAT THEY KNOW. The important issue here is: What has God been trying to teach us? Law? NO, LOVE!!!! Learn to love and there is NO NEED FOR LAWS written in stone. We will know God as He knows us and through this relationship, God's will will become our will through love, NOT THE LAW.
The law was the means which God used to teach man. We still have those laws. We WILL obey those laws if we KNOW God. NOT simply because they are laws, but in SPITE of the laws, through LOVE.
We can not obey all of God's law through 'our' will. Only through a 'change' can we please God through our obedience, not by our 'will'. The change that is needed is 're-birth' in Christ.
Once we accept Christ into our hearts, we will begin to change. NO, 'WE' will not 'cause' the change. God will change our hearts and through this change we will begin to obey Him. NO, not through our will, but through His love.
Law followed through blind obedience for fear of punishment means NOTHING to God. The law followed by the changing of ones heart through LOVE means EVERYTHING. Thus, those that are 'reborn' are given a 'new heart', one that is circumcised. What does this mean?
It means that those that accept Christ into their hearts and begin a 'new' relationship with the Father are members of a NEW COVENANT. A covenant that has brought about a NEW means of forgiveness. A means that, 'offered once', is for all time. A covenant that allows man 'BACK' in the sight of God, whereas the law and sin that resulted from it, hid Him from us.
We were told when law was 'in effect', that it would NOT always be so. We were foretold of a time in the future when God's laws would no longer be written in stone, but written in the hearts of those that loved Him. That time was after the death and resurrection of Christ.
This is what 'fulfillment' was. Christ suffering the punishment that was brought about 'by the law'. He died for ALL SIN. His death finished the law. Why do you think that He told us that we ARE ALL GUILTY of breaking EVERY LAW? To show us the importance of our NEED for forgiveness through the LOVE OF GOD.
Sin separated us from the Father. Christ dying for ALL SIN allowed us a 'fresh start' with the Father. Once again we can develope a relationship with the Father REGARDLESS of the law. If this were NOT SO, we would still be offering daily, weekly, and yearly sacrifices to NO AVAIL.
Now that we have been restored as children of God, we may KNOW God and love Him. If we do this, as our hearts change, so will our desires. As our desires change through our love for God, so will our thoughts and actions. This is the way in which we are to follow the law. Through LOVE. The more we love and are loved, the more we will change. NOT through shear will to do God's will, but through an understanding of God's will.
The more we love the more we learn of love and the more we will change through the conviction of our hearts once our love is given to God. A good student will learn what is taught and follow it. NOT because they have to, but because through this learning it becomes WHAT THEY KNOW. The important issue here is: What has God been trying to teach us? Law? NO, LOVE!!!! Learn to love and there is NO NEED FOR LAWS written in stone. We will know God as He knows us and through this relationship, God's will will become our will through love, NOT THE LAW.
G
gingercat
Guest
It is so easy to understand if we change the word "law" to "His teachings".
Then no one can make excuses to follow His teachings.
Then no one can make excuses to follow His teachings.
S
Servant_2000
Guest
Greetings, everyone
It’s all well and good for these churches to promote the 10 Commandments as a guide for Christian living, as long as they don’t promote it above the life and teachings of Jesus Christ who is the true law that existed before the 10 and who supplanted the 10 when he came to earth. Hebrews 1:1-3.
The 10 should be kept in a spiritual way. But the spiritual way is to follow Christ. First we need to recognize that Christ Himself IS as much superior to the 10 as He is superior to angels and the Aaronic priests. Hebrews 3-4 show that Christ is superior to the Law of Moses, which includes the 10.
It’s not that the law is “totally gone and thrown out.†It’s that the Law of Moses has been replaced by the Law of Christ. It’s that the Law of Christ existed before the Law of Moses, which was temporary and inferior. Think of it this way: In the beginning there was the Word (Law of Christ). Then, because of sin, the Law of Moses came. Finally, when the Law of Christ was restored in the first coming of Christ, the Law of Moses isn’t needed any more. There are many many scriptural illustrations to back this up: The slave woman vs. the true wife. The transfiguration when the law and the prophets disappeared and only Christ remained. The old covenant going obsolete and being replaced by the new. The shadow pointing to the reality. And many more.
The Law of Christ is the Law of Love: “Love does not harm to it’s neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.†Christ’s Sermon on Mt. Blessings shows how superior this Law of Love is to the Law of Moses.
How do we know if adultery is wrong? Look to the Sermon on Mt. Blessings: Christ said that the Law of Moses said you could look on a person of the opposite sex with lust and not sin as long as you didn’t “go the distance.†But He added that under the Law of Love you can’t even look on the opposite-sex person with lust because that is hurtful -- to God, to yourself, to your spouse, and to the other person as well -- and therefore a violation of the Law of Christ. If you really agape that other person, you will not lust after him/her. So something can be a violation of the Law of Christ without being a violation of the Law of Moses. And THAT’S why it’s superior.
A further proof of its superiority is the fact that the Law of Moses was written on stony tablets, whereas the Law of Christ is written on the heart.
The keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath was for the Jews a symbol of their allegiance to God, but the Fourth Commandment was also a practical labor law, giving people who as slaves had to work seven days per week a day
off.
I truelly believe that the Lord’s Supper has taken the place of the Sabbath. By keeping the Sabbath you are paying allegiance to the inferior Law of Moses. By keeping the Lord’s Supper you are paying allegiance to the superior Law of Christ, the Law of Love.
Incidentally the Royal Law of Love wasn’t found in the ark of the old covenant at all. Therefore, when the old covenant passed away with the first coming of Christ, the Royal Law of Love didn’t pass away with it because it wasn’t in the ark.
It is the new covenant (New Testament) that says, “Sin is lawlessness,†not the old. Look to Jesus Christ, not the Ten Commanents, for specifics that are vastly superior than the 10 to see what “lawfulness†is.
“Love does not harm to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.â€Â
It’s all well and good for these churches to promote the 10 Commandments as a guide for Christian living, as long as they don’t promote it above the life and teachings of Jesus Christ who is the true law that existed before the 10 and who supplanted the 10 when he came to earth. Hebrews 1:1-3.
The 10 should be kept in a spiritual way. But the spiritual way is to follow Christ. First we need to recognize that Christ Himself IS as much superior to the 10 as He is superior to angels and the Aaronic priests. Hebrews 3-4 show that Christ is superior to the Law of Moses, which includes the 10.
It’s not that the law is “totally gone and thrown out.†It’s that the Law of Moses has been replaced by the Law of Christ. It’s that the Law of Christ existed before the Law of Moses, which was temporary and inferior. Think of it this way: In the beginning there was the Word (Law of Christ). Then, because of sin, the Law of Moses came. Finally, when the Law of Christ was restored in the first coming of Christ, the Law of Moses isn’t needed any more. There are many many scriptural illustrations to back this up: The slave woman vs. the true wife. The transfiguration when the law and the prophets disappeared and only Christ remained. The old covenant going obsolete and being replaced by the new. The shadow pointing to the reality. And many more.
The Law of Christ is the Law of Love: “Love does not harm to it’s neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.†Christ’s Sermon on Mt. Blessings shows how superior this Law of Love is to the Law of Moses.
How do we know if adultery is wrong? Look to the Sermon on Mt. Blessings: Christ said that the Law of Moses said you could look on a person of the opposite sex with lust and not sin as long as you didn’t “go the distance.†But He added that under the Law of Love you can’t even look on the opposite-sex person with lust because that is hurtful -- to God, to yourself, to your spouse, and to the other person as well -- and therefore a violation of the Law of Christ. If you really agape that other person, you will not lust after him/her. So something can be a violation of the Law of Christ without being a violation of the Law of Moses. And THAT’S why it’s superior.
A further proof of its superiority is the fact that the Law of Moses was written on stony tablets, whereas the Law of Christ is written on the heart.
The keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath was for the Jews a symbol of their allegiance to God, but the Fourth Commandment was also a practical labor law, giving people who as slaves had to work seven days per week a day
off.
I truelly believe that the Lord’s Supper has taken the place of the Sabbath. By keeping the Sabbath you are paying allegiance to the inferior Law of Moses. By keeping the Lord’s Supper you are paying allegiance to the superior Law of Christ, the Law of Love.
Incidentally the Royal Law of Love wasn’t found in the ark of the old covenant at all. Therefore, when the old covenant passed away with the first coming of Christ, the Royal Law of Love didn’t pass away with it because it wasn’t in the ark.
It is the new covenant (New Testament) that says, “Sin is lawlessness,†not the old. Look to Jesus Christ, not the Ten Commanents, for specifics that are vastly superior than the 10 to see what “lawfulness†is.
“Love does not harm to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.â€Â
S
Servant_2000
Guest
gingercat said:
I beg to differ. He was nitpicking my typing ability..which I capitalized Sunday (the first day of the week) which was created by God, just as all of the other days were, which being 5 AM in the morning and with no lights on, and still half asleep when I wrote that. But we will let that one slide for now.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Servant_2000 said:
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Servant_2000 said:
No, Servant, I don't keep the Sabbath perfectly because I'm not perfect to begin with. I DO mentally acknowledge the day, however, and do the best I can. Actually, sometimes I DON'T do the best I can if the truth be known. That's as honest an answer as I can give.
S
Servant_2000
Guest
SputnikBoy said:
SpuntnikBoy...I have a few questions for you..if you don't mind?
Question 1. Does EGW teach that perfect obedience to the law is required of all people in order to be saved? please answer yes or no.
Question 2. Does the SDA church teach that EGW's writings are an authoritative source of truth?
Question 3. If Questions 1 and 2 are both true, is there any way in which one can conclude that the SDA church does not teach perfect obedience to the law is required for salvation?
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Servant_2000 said:
From my perspective ...again, I don't know. I personally don't acknowledge ANY human being as the authoritative source of truth. In all fairness to you, however, some SDAs might believe this. This is never an issue of discussion.
You really are asking the wrong person. I don't belong to 'a club' where I have to raise my right hand and pledge allegiance each week. If I had to I would quit. I do recall having professed an understanding and acknowledgement of the Adventist fundamentals at the time of my baptism in 1988. Since then I've learned and grown in my understanding of the scriptures that I could not have fully understood after a mere 12-week study. Christianity is a progressive thing and one or two fundamentals I may have believed then I now question. I don't believe that the SDA Church has all of the answers. I don't believe that ANY 'Church' does.
I'm being totally upfront with you here, Servant. Maybe there are SDA churches and SDA churches, just as there are many other churches of the same denominations that differ from each other in culture. The one that I've belonged to for the last 16 years is rather typical of a mainstream Christian church, other than church being held on the Sabbath, of course. The message is always Christ-centered and E.G. White is seldom mentioned. I personally have never read any of her literature. Maybe I should have as I hear that many of her books make great reading. But, I haven't and I therefore NEVER use E.G. White to support any scriptural point that I need to make. How could I? I don't know the woman.
So, as I say, you're asking the wrong person. I've never been lectured as such on the Sabbath, unclean foods, the state of the dead, annihilation, the Investigative Judgment, etc. These issues HAVE been raised and discussed in seminars but the Bible as always been the final authority for me. In fact, I recall one particular SDA evangelist saying, "Don't believe anything I tell you if it doesn't tally with the scriptures." If that was not the philosophy of the Adventist Church that I know, I would have no interest in it and would quit forthwith.[/quote:fe778][/quote:fe778]
Servant_2000 said:
This concept is foreign to the scripture pertaining to which ones are to be kept and which ones are not, which is why this divisive thinking has been applied in the first place.
Sure.
Depends on the context of where the word "law" is contained. A "change (shifting) of law" found in Hebrews 7:12 is speaking of the commandment pertaining to which tribe is the priesthood found in, not the whole Torah or "thou shalt not kill" and "love your neighbor" have been changed.
Just to pause here and let you know that I am not an SDA. I don't know either way but it seems you think I am one.
Pertaining to the atonement system, qualified by "with those sacrifices" and specifically speaking of the Yom Kippur sacrifices qualified by "year after year".
Another pause here to indicate that "those who live by law" is not in the Greek text. Those who actually live by Torah are justified (Romans 2:13). Those who do not are condemned.
Is this the CEREMONIAL law to which Paul refers? Obviously not. So if the author of Hebrews is speaking of the law not being able to deal with sin, it is not the cermonial law to which (s)he refers, but the entire law of God, specifically in this instance, the "moral" law. (Don't you just love that terminology? Is there an "immoral" law?
Well, you started out addressing me and then you switched over to SDA's. This causes me to think you believe I am an SDA. But anyway, if all Torah is a shadow, so is "love your neighbor as yourself". Yaho'shua and Paul qualify this to be part of Torah in several places in the NT.
So yet again, you make a contradiction. You start out trying to divide it, then you say it is all one, then you say all of it is a shadow and we are not under "shadows", but then this would nullify every precept you say abides, such as love, faith, principles of atonement by blood etc etc...
Servant_2000 said:
Abstraction. How do you "follow Christ"? Think about him or walk as he walked (1 John 2:6), a.k.a., do as he did...on earth?
Not in scripture.
Think of it according to scripture.
Weak interpretation of scripture, no offense. I've heard this before, but it's nonsense. This must be superimposed. If they are disappeared, many yet future occurences in them are not going to happen.
Not in scripture. Not according to how you are trying to use it. Actually, the "law of love" is the Torah. This is in scripture. Matthew 22:37-40.
True. How one interprets this is the problem.
Not in scripture.
Not in scripture. As far as your example of looking on a woman being adultery, this is not an addition. This is something that is supposed to be understood. I'm sure everyone before Christ was not completely oblivious to knowing that you should not even think bad thoughts (Leviticus 19:17, for example, with "you shall not hate your brother in your heart". For that matter, add the 10th commandment: you are not supposed to covet)
And so was Yahweh's Torah (people always want to forget that Yahweh gave Torah to Moshe; Moshe was just a tool. He did not create the Torah).
Moshe said:
"And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart". This is accomplished by Messiah. So the two are directly connected. Romans 10 affirms this by quoting Deuteronomy 30.
This belief is like the value of the paper money administered by our American government: it is based on nothing but the belief itself.
Imagican said:
Proverb 1:7 The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
True indeed.
Please tell me where this is found.
For the nation of Israel as a whole. Many of Yahweh's prophets and chosen men like David knew this and lived according to this.
Not in scripture (and not in Romans 10:4 either).
Indeed.
Through both.
The love principle is taught in the Torah. Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18.