the lineage of Mary

[westtexas]

sforces, as Whirlwind stated in the Adam and Eve thread, Luke chapter 3 talks about the lineage of Mary and traces it back to Nathan, the son of King David. Matthew chapter 1 talks about the lineage of Joseph and traces it back to Solomon, the son of King David.

Westtexas

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

matt 1 is the geneology of mary

Mat 1:16 And 1161 Jacob 2384 begat 1080 Joseph 2501 the husband 435 of Mary 3137, of 1537 whom 3739 was born 1080 Jesus 2424, who 3588 is called 3004 Christ 5547.

husband here is not really husband it should read father, the word for husband can be husband or just man. we know this because joseph her husbands father is not jacob, His father is heli. mary's father is joseph and josephs father is jacob.

Luk 3:23 ¶ And 2532 Jesus 2424 himself 846 began 756 to be 2258 about 5616 thirty 5144 years of age 2094, being 5607 (as 5613 was supposed 3543 ) the son 5207 of Joseph 2501, which was [the son] of Heli 2242,
Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat 3158, which was [the son] of Levi 3017, which was [the son] of Melchi 3197, which was [the son] of Janna 2388, which was [the son] of Joseph 2501,

notice it says in luke jesus was as supposed the son of joseph the son of heli the son of matthat. this is josephs line while matt 1 is mary's

 

[westtexas]

matt 1 is the geneology of mary

Mat 1:16 And 1161 Jacob 2384 begat 1080 Joseph 2501 the husband 435 of Mary 3137, of 1537 whom 3739 was born 1080 Jesus 2424, who 3588 is called 3004 Christ 5547.

husband here is not really husband it should read father, the word for husband can be husband or just man. we know this because joseph her husbands father is not jacob, His father is heli. mary's father is joseph and josephs father is jacob.

Luk 3:23 ¶ And 2532 Jesus 2424 himself 846 began 756 to be 2258 about 5616 thirty 5144 years of age 2094, being 5607 (as 5613 was supposed 3543 ) the son 5207 of Joseph 2501, which was [the son] of Heli 2242,
Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat 3158, which was [the son] of Levi 3017, which was [the son] of Melchi 3197, which was [the son] of Janna 2388, which was [the son] of Joseph 2501,

notice it says in luke jesus was as supposed the son of joseph the son of heli the son of matthat. this is josephs line while matt 1 is mary's

This is the first time I have heard this arguement. Joseph the husband (435) of Mary. Strongs def. of 435 is fellow, husband, man, sir. NOT FATHER Strongs word for father is 3962 Additionally it is impossible for Matthews lineage to be Mary's due to the curse our Lord put on Jechoniah and his offspring. Jeremiah 22:24-30 God cursed Jeconiah and his offspring and said that they would never sit on the throne of David. Matthew 1:11and12 Josias begat Jechonias and Jechonias begat Salathiel from this point on down in this lineage God's own Word says this bloodline would not inherit the throne of David. God's Word does say that our Savior would be a descendant of King David which did occur in Lukes geneology through David and Nathan down to Mary.
Westtexas

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

matt 1 is the geneology of mary

Mat 1:16 And 1161 Jacob 2384 begat 1080 Joseph 2501 the husband 435 of Mary 3137, of 1537 whom 3739 was born 1080 Jesus 2424, who 3588 is called 3004 Christ 5547.

husband here is not really husband it should read father, the word for husband can be husband or just man. we know this because joseph her husbands father is not jacob, His father is heli. mary's father is joseph and josephs father is jacob.

Luk 3:23 ¶ And 2532 Jesus 2424 himself 846 began 756 to be 2258 about 5616 thirty 5144 years of age 2094, being 5607 (as 5613 was supposed 3543 ) the son 5207 of Joseph 2501, which was [the son] of Heli 2242,
Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat 3158, which was [the son] of Levi 3017, which was [the son] of Melchi 3197, which was [the son] of Janna 2388, which was [the son] of Joseph 2501,

notice it says in luke jesus was as supposed the son of joseph the son of heli the son of matthat. this is josephs line while matt 1 is mary's

This is the first time I have heard this arguement. Joseph the husband (435) of Mary. Strongs def. of 435 is fellow, husband, man, sir. NOT FATHER Strongs word for father is 3962 Additionally it is impossible for Matthews lineage to be Mary's due to the curse our Lord put on Jechoniah and his offspring. Jeremiah 22:24-30 God cursed Jeconiah and his offspring and said that they would never sit on the throne of David. Matthew 1:11and12 Josias begat Jechonias and Jechonias begat Salathiel from this point on down in this lineage God's own Word says this bloodline would not inherit the throne of David. God's Word does say that our Savior would be a descendant of King David which did occur in Lukes geneology through David and Nathan down to Mary.
Westtexas

bloodline goes through fathers not mothers, so there is no problem with matt being mary's line the curse does not pass through a woman but to the seed of men. also it cannot be argued that matt 1 is josephs line because josephs father is heli which is clearly shown in luke also luke clearly says that it is joseph's line.

 

[jasoncran]

that's true, but being jew,in the orthodox side its the woman who determines whether one is gentile or not, by that standard i'm gentile. My father is jewish, my mother is Irish.

jason

 

[westtexas]

bloodline goes through fathers not mothers, so there is no problem with matt being mary's line the curse does not pass through a woman but to the seed of men. also it cannot be argued that matt 1 is josephs line because josephs father is heli which is clearly shown in luke also luke clearly says that it is joseph's line.

The logic here does not make sense. If you agree that Matthews line is cursed and if you feel that Lukes lineage is Joseph's lineage, WHERE DOES KING JESUS FIT IN? He was born a virgin birth, therefore,if it is as you state, the lineage in Luke ends with Joseph as he is not the father of Jesus. Matthews lineage is cursed by God's own Word. God's Word says the Messiah will be a descendant of King David. Jesus is not Josephs son and if Mary's line is cursed, how is Jesus a descendant of King David? Additionally, if you feel that Matthew is not Joseph's lineage please explain this verse to me. Matthew 1:16--And Jacob BEGAT Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ (KJV) Caps are mine

Westtexas

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The logic here does not make sense. If you agree that Matthews line is cursed and if you feel that Lukes lineage is Joseph's lineage, WHERE DOES KING JESUS FIT IN? He was born a virgin birth, therefore,if it is as you state, the lineage in Luke ends with Joseph as he is not the father of Jesus. Matthews lineage is cursed by God's own Word. God's Word says the Messiah will be a descendant of King David. Jesus is not Josephs son and if Mary's line is cursed, how is Jesus a descendant of King David? Additionally, if you feel that Matthew is not Joseph's lineage please explain this verse to me. Matthew 1:16--And Jacob BEGAT Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ (KJV) Caps are mine

Westtexas

i agree the line in matt is cursed which is why it does not matter that it is mary's line. A person gets their SEED and BLOOD from the father not from the mother. Hence why He had to be born of a virgin, who like everyone else was a sinful human being. If she was the one to pass blood and seed to Jesus His flesh would have also been born in sin but it was not. It does not matter that mary's line got cursed because she did not give any blood or seed to Jesus with curse upon it but she is still in the line of descendents.God did not curse everyone in this line of descendents he cursed the SEED(which mary did not give Jesus any seed )
Jer 22:28 [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? Jer 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

i already gave an explination of the verse in matt that says joseph the husband of mary. We know from luke that luke absolutly has to be joseph's line and His line is shown clearly and does not match the line in matt 1. The line in matt 1 ends with mary but in luke it tells us backwards beginning with joseph.

Luk 3:23 ¶ And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi, which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Janna, which was [the son] of Joseph,

This is jospehs line because it says being AS WAS SUPPOSED the son of JOSEPH the sonof HELI etc..(this line by the way goes back to adam, where as the one in matt only goes to abraham)

Notice the differnce Luke-Joseph son of HELI matt- Joseph sonof JACOB Luke HELI son of MATTHAT matt- JACOB son of MATTHAN luke MATHAT son of LEVI matt- MATTHAN son of ELEAZAR luke- LEVI son of MELCHI matt- ELEAZAR son of ELIUD etc....

Nothing in Luke 3:23 suggests this is mary's line but tells us specifically it is Joseph who is the SON of heli and then even to be more sure adds " being AS WAS SUPPOSED the son of joseph"-This line does not even mention mary at all. Where as the one in matt ends with mary and gives a totally differnt lineage of names. Now they cannot both be jospehs line and this one in luke clearly has to be.Some suggest luke is mary's line butmary is not anywhere mentioned there but is mentioned in matt.

 

[whirlwind]

The logic here does not make sense. If you agree that Matthews line is cursed and if you feel that Lukes lineage is Joseph's lineage, WHERE DOES KING JESUS FIT IN? He was born a virgin birth, therefore,if it is as you state, the lineage in Luke ends with Joseph as he is not the father of Jesus. Matthews lineage is cursed by God's own Word. God's Word says the Messiah will be a descendant of King David. Jesus is not Josephs son and if Mary's line is cursed, how is Jesus a descendant of King David? Additionally, if you feel that Matthew is not Joseph's lineage please explain this verse to me. Matthew 1:16--And Jacob BEGAT Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ (KJV) Caps are mine

Westtexas

i agree the line in matt is cursed which is why it does not matter that it is mary's line. A person gets their SEED and BLOOD from the father not from the mother. Hence why He had to be born of a virgin, who like everyone else was a sinful human being. If she was the one to pass blood and seed to Jesus His flesh would have also been born in sin but it was not. It does not matter that mary's line got cursed because she did not give any blood or seed to Jesus with curse upon it but she is still in the line of descendents.God did not curse everyone in this line of descendents he cursed the SEED(which mary did not give Jesus any seed )
Jer 22:28 [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? Jer 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

i already gave an explination of the verse in matt that says joseph the husband of mary. We know from luke that luke absolutly has to be joseph's line and His line is shown clearly and does not match the line in matt 1. The line in matt 1 ends with mary but in luke it tells us backwards beginning with joseph.

Luk 3:23 ¶ And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi, which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Janna, which was [the son] of Joseph,

This is jospehs line because it says being AS WAS SUPPOSED the son of JOSEPH the sonof HELI etc..(this line by the way goes back to adam, where as the one in matt only goes to abraham)

Notice the differnce Luke-Joseph son of HELI matt- Joseph sonof JACOB Luke HELI son of MATTHAT matt- JACOB son of MATTHAN luke MATHAT son of LEVI matt- MATTHAN son of ELEAZAR luke- LEVI son of MELCHI matt- ELEAZAR son of ELIUD etc....

Nothing in Luke 3:23 suggests this is mary's line but tells us specifically it is Joseph who is the SON of heli and then even to be more sure adds " being AS WAS SUPPOSED the son of joseph"-This line does not even mention mary at all. Where as the one in matt ends with mary and gives a totally differnt lineage of names. Now they cannot both be jospehs line and this one in luke clearly has to be.Some suggest luke is mary's line butmary is not anywhere mentioned there but is mentioned in matt.

Let's throw another fly in the ointment....

• Matthew 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

When you count them there are fourteen from Abraham to David and there are fourteen from David till the "carrying away into Babylon," but....there ARE NOT fourteen from the carrying away until Christ.

So, where it is written....."And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary" [Matthew 1:16] it may be, if it is fourteen generations, Joseph the father of Mary.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

ahh ww you are wise lol i forgot that part and it is important. to have 14 generations joseph has to be the father of mary making mary the 14th generation. otherwise if it is joseph the husband of mary then there are only 13 generations.

 

[westtexas]

ahh ww you are wise lol i forgot that part and it is important. to have 14 generations joseph has to be the father of mary making mary the 14th generation. otherwise if it is joseph the husband of mary then there are only 13 generations.

Matthew 1:17--Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David,
1)Abraham 2)Isaac 3)Jacob 4)Judah 5) Pharez 6)Esrom 7)Aram 8)Aminadab 9)Naason 10)Salmon 11)Booz 12)Obed 13)Jesse 14)David

Matthew 1:17 cont--fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon,
1)Solomon 2)Roboam 3)Abia 4)Asa 5)Josaphat 6)Joram 7)Ozias 8)Joatham 9)Achaz 10)Ezekias 11)Manasses 12)Amon 13)Josias 14) Jehoiakim

Matthew 1:17 cont--and fourteen from the exile to the Christ
1)Jechonias 2)Salathiel 3)Zorobabel 4)Abiud 5)Eliakim 6)Azor 7)Sadoc 8)Achim 9)Eliud 10)Eleazar 11)Matthan 12)Jacob 13)Joseph 14)Jesus the Christ

Additionally you say that seed is passed down from the father, this is not what God's Word says, God told Satan in the garden of Eden that the SEED OF THE WOMAN would crush his head.

Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

Whirlwind, I guess it doesn't matter but I'm curious. In the Adam and Eve thread where this discussion started you state "Heli is the father of Mary The grandfather of Christ" Now you think that Joseph is the father of Mary? You changed your mind or what?

Westtexas

 

[turnorburn]

The Book Of Ruth Chapter Four..

1 - Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 - And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 - And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which [was] our brother Elimelech's:
4 - And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy [it] before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem [it], redeem [it]: but if thou wilt not redeem [it, then] tell me, that I may know: for [there is] none to redeem [it] beside thee; and I [am] after thee. And he said, I will redeem [it].
5 - Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy [it] also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.
6 - And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem [it] for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance: redeem thou my right to thyself; for I cannot redeem [it].
7 - Now this [was the manner] in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave [it] to his neighbour: and this [was] a testimony in Israel.
8 - Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy [it] for thee. So he drew off his shoe.
9 - And Boaz said unto the elders, and [unto] all the people, Ye [are] witnesses this day, that I have bought all that [was] Elimelech's, and all that [was] Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.
10 - Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye [are] witnesses this day.
11 - And all the people that [were] in the gate, and the elders, said, [We are] witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
12 - And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman.
13 - So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
14 - And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed [be] the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
15 - And he shall be unto thee a restorer of [thy] life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.
16 - And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
17 - And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he [is] the father of Jesse, the father of David.
18 - Now these [are] the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,
19 - And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,
20 - And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,
21 - And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,
22 - And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.


turnorburn

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind, I guess it doesn't matter but I'm curious. In the Adam and Eve thread where this discussion started you state "Heli is the father of Mary The grandfather of Christ" Now you think that Joseph is the father of Mary? You changed your mind or what?

Westtexas

I was taught and still believe Heli is the father of Mary, son in law of Joseph. But, I saw a program where the "fourteen generations" were discussed and...it does make one think.

Bottom line....I don't have an answer. The vital part we know. We know Mary was the mother of Jesus and we know Who His Father is. We know, through either of the lineages that He is of David, as the prophecy states. I just wanted to add the fourteen generations to the mix so the rest of you would have "the facts ma'me, just the facts." (in case you aren't old enough to know...that is my Joe Friday imitation).

If there is an apparent discrepency and the translation of the text wasn't tampered with then it is a point our Father wants us to notice. I haven't studied it so, I must admit... I don't know what that is.

 

[westtexas]

There are 14 generations listed above from Abraham to David, 14 from David to the exile, and 14 from the exile to Christ. They would make the lineage in Matthew the line of Joseph-- and the line in Luke the line Of Mary and just as you have been taught Heli is the Father of Mary and the father-in-law of Joseph

Westtexas

 

[GodspromisesRyes]