The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[francisdesales]

How much righteousness is required to be a pirate?...answer...none.

How much righteousness is required to be lawless?...answer...none.

Being above the law is not the same as being an outlaw. You should rethink your entire position here. It is exactly backwards.

Jesus Christ will reject lawless believers.

And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matt 7:23

Have you not been fooled by the prince of the power of the air? Your gospel is 180 degrees backwards. Same words.... opposite meaning.

Righteousness is required for justification. That is why repentance is a pre-requisite. The heart must turn from wickedness to righteousness. God does not fill sinners with the Holy Spirit.

Agree. It is amazing to me how many people have been fooled by a false gospel. The idea of total depravity and shifting the responsibility to God is a classic case of shirking one's own call to holiness and a life in the image of Christ.

I would like to know your opinion on two of my more extensive (with much Scripture) posts on this subject and let me know if you think I should add anything. It seems a lot of people are completely surprised by the idea that God only desires our true humble repentance!!! Not alien righteousness...

How are we made right before God", pg 13, dated post May 11, 4:41 am.

"How are we made right before God", pg 16, this one is more on the REQUIREMENT of blood by God, but along the lines...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47143&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=225

Regards

 

[Adullam]

Hi A

Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

You say that repentance is a pre-requisite. This is untrue !

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

LOL That passage doesn't mean what you think. It means that God doesn't repent of the gifts and callings He puts on people. In other words...He doesn't change His mind.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi A

Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

You say that repentance is a pre-requisite. This is untrue !

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

LOL That passage doesn't mean what you think. It means that God doesn't repent of the gifts and callings He puts on people. In other words...He doesn't change His mind.

Hi A.

Your private interpretation of this scripture, would imply salvation by works ! :biglol

 

[Adullam]

A strong righteousness is our immune system against spiritual error. By destroying common righteousness we allow every spiritual thought in. We are, however, to test the spirits...through righteousness!!!!!

Many don't realize how much spiritual delusion there is out there. If it's spiritual, they reason, it must be from God, and it must be good!!!! The devil's sin was spiritual and it was against righteousness. So believers who are tempted away from righteousness fall under that same condemnation. That is why maturity and wisdom are required to be a church leader. If you look at the track record of so many of our public leaders, you will see the fruit of such foolishness as is preached these days. God is mocked for our foolishness.

2 Cor. 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Overcoming the sins of the flesh is just the beginning. We must also overcome the sins of the spirit.

I used to think my spiritual walk made me immune from sin. I walked in light...a light I could see shimmering all around. But I became proud due to my inexperience. I thought I was God's special servant. But the training was not finished yet. There is a lot more to the walk of Christ than the heebee jeebees!

 

[LaCrum]

What is "righteousness"? It is some rudimentary displays from man that God finds desireable, are they not? Sorrow, repentance, begging for forgiveness? Isn't this what God desires from someone BEFORE the man is called just??? Isn't that the biblical paradigm???

Was Abraham declared just before or after his display of faith?

Enoch? Noah? Abel?

Other men and women mentioned in Scriptures???

Did God first say "you are righteous", and THEN, they responded in faith? Is God ultimately picking and choosing who CAN be righteous, or does God's grace rain down on alll, both the good and the evil, and man is EXPECTED to make a response, moved by God's Spirit?

God does not see man as righteous unless man shows signs of a response to God's promptings of the Spirit. According to you, man does not need to do anything, God picks men for perdition and salvation without any basis that is known to us... All the talk from the prophets and Jesus about repenting is pointless, to you, since man can do nothing in God's eyes of value...

Abraham was declared righteous after his display of faith, just as we are with our display of faith in trusting in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Strawmans galore, when did I ever say man does not need to do anything for salvation, or that repentance is pointless? Please show me. I’ll repeat what I’ve been saying all along, we are saved by believing in Jesus’s work on the cross aka acknowledging that we need Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.

I was under the impression that EVERTHING from God is a gift...

Whether it is being CALLED just or being MADE just... It's all from God - but that status is based upon our response to God's initiative.

I agree and I’ve never said anything differently. How we respond to God is through faith in Jesus’s work on the cross on our behalf.

Maybe you were absent, so I'll ask again.

Where does the Bible state that God demands perfect righteousness???

I posted dozens of Scriptures to the contrary, in the "How are we made right before God" thread, page 13, the 4:41 am post... Over a dozen references to the Minor Prophets and nearly a dozen from the Gospels. In each case, nothing about perfection is mentioned. GOD takes the intiative when a human reaches out to Him. With a humble and contrite heart, God forgives sin. No restitituion BEFORE sin is forgiven. No compensation. Forgiveness is freely given without a requirement for perfect righteouesness...

He demands perfection because He is a perfect and just God. If He did not, he would not be just.
.
Where does the Bible state that God demands perfect righteousness?

Matthew 5:48 – Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Straight from the lips of Jesus on that one.

1 John 2:6 - Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Did Jesus live a “pretty good life†or a “perfect life�

Romans 8:1-4
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Why does Jesus have to be a sin offering for us in order to fully meet the righteous requirements of the law? Why is the term “fully†used here if God does not need perfection?

Why do you, Francis, think Jesus came to earth to die for our sins if we can be declared righteous without Him by our works?

Your logic is based upon a THEORY, the Theory of Atonement, which presumes a number of things, some of which are not found int he Bible. It does not take into account what the Bible actually says, over and over and over again...

Wait, so point me to the verse that says that Christ and his shed blood was NOT a sin offering on our behalf?

Ah, I guess I'll have to cover this all over again...

Why does man require sanctification, if we are covered with perfection already???

The covering of our sins by Jesus’s blood is what allows us to enter into the inner-most sanctuary and have a relationship with God like Jesus had. That’s why in the gospels it speaks of the curtain being torn when Jesus died, it was the curtain separating the inner and outer sanctuary of the temple. By his death we can now enter into the inner sanctuary, whereas before we couldn’t because of our sins. That’s what we mean by “covered with perfectionâ€. We ARE NOT saying that we, as people are perfect, that’s obvious. Therefore, now that we have this close relationship with God, he can start working in our lives (sanctifying us, making us holy) to make us perfectl like Christ.

 

[LaCrum]

It seems a lot of people are completely surprised by the idea that God only desires our true humble repentance!!!

Then why did Jesus die on the cross of humble repentence is all it took to get right with God?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi A

Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

You say that repentance is a pre-requisite. This is untrue !

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

LOL That passage doesn't mean what you think. It means that God doesn't repent of the gifts and callings He puts on people. In other words...He doesn't change His mind.

Hi A.

If you would read the context, you might find out that you are the one who is incorrect.

Romans 11:28 is talking about the elect of God. Beloved for the father's sakes, then comes verse 29. Then in verse 30 we read of the mercy of God. And Paul was talking to the gentile church in Roman, and Paul explains to them in this verse , that they obtained mercy through their unbelief. The unbelief of Israel. Verse 32 , God tells us that he has mercy upon all. And in verse 35, God is showing us, as to whom has first given, to receive this mercy. It means none of us had first given. God is the one who gave first, and gave of His Son.

Romans 12:1 tells us of our reasonable service to God, by presenting our bodies a living sacrifice for this mercy and free gift of eternal life bestowed upon us.

 

[Adullam]

Hi A

Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

You say that repentance is a pre-requisite. This is untrue !

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

LOL That passage doesn't mean what you think. It means that God doesn't repent of the gifts and callings He puts on people. In other words...He doesn't change His mind.

Hi A.

If you would read the context, you might find out that you are the one who is incorrect.

Romans 11:28 is talking about the elect of God. Beloved for the father's sakes, then comes verse 29. Then in verse 30 we read of the mercy of God. And Paul was talking to the gentile church in Roman, and Paul explains to them in this verse , that they obtained mercy through their unbelief. The unbelief of Israel. Verse 32 , God tells us that he has mercy upon all. And in verse 35, God is showing us, as to whom has first given, to receive this mercy. It means none of us had first given. God is the one who gave first, and gave of His Son.

Romans 12:1 tells us of our reasonable service to God, by presenting our bodies a living sacrifice for this mercy and free gift of eternal life bestowed upon us.

I don't know if you are being serious or not here. Stringing errors together doesn't hold anything but error up. We don't receive mercy because of our own disbelief. Quite the opposite! Are you also getting infected with the upside-down spirit turning up on this thread?

"For we who have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they harden their hearts they shall not enter into my rest; also, I have sworn, If they will not harden their hearts, they shall enter into my rest; although the works of God were prepared (or finished) from the foundation of the world."


Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[Mysteryman]

[quote="Adullam"

Hi A

Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

You say that repentance is a pre-requisite. This is untrue !

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

LOL That passage doesn't mean what you think. It means that God doesn't repent of the gifts and callings He puts on people. In other words...He doesn't change His mind.

Hi A.

If you would read the context, you might find out that you are the one who is incorrect.

Romans 11:28 is talking about the elect of God. Beloved for the father's sakes, then comes verse 29. Then in verse 30 we read of the mercy of God. And Paul was talking to the gentile church in Roman, and Paul explains to them in this verse , that they obtained mercy through their unbelief. The unbelief of Israel. Verse 32 , God tells us that he has mercy upon all. And in verse 35, God is showing us, as to whom has first given, to receive this mercy. It means none of us had first given. God is the one who gave first, and gave of His Son.

Romans 12:1 tells us of our reasonable service to God, by presenting our bodies a living sacrifice for this mercy and free gift of eternal life bestowed upon us.[/quote]


Adullum replied:
I don't know if you are being serious or not here. Stringing errors together doesn't hold anything but error up. We don't receive mercy because of our own disbelief. Quite the opposite! Are you also getting infected with the upside-down spirit turning up on this thread?

"For we who have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they harden their hearts they shall not enter into my rest; also, I have sworn, If they will not harden their hearts, they shall enter into my rest; although the works of God were prepared (or finished) from the foundation of the world."


Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.[/quote]



Hi A.

I am very serious. God stated in Romans 11:32 - "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he (God) might have mercy upon all"

We do not come to God with "our" faith. If that were possible, then Isreal would have achieved like mercy by their faith, and thus there would be no need for the mercy of God upon all. The faith that we come towards God with, is with the "faith of Christ".

 

[Drew]

Actually it does not, as justification is instantaneous and given by the grace of God

Simply not possible, if you take Paul at his words. Which many here simply do not.

Here in Romans 2, Paul places justification in the future:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Note the future tense. This statement is made in the context of a description of a coming judgement. Now I am not denying that there is also a "present" justification.

But it cannot be denied- Paul also places justification in the future.

Behind all these discussions is the matter of whether we take Paul at his word - whether we actually listen to what he is telling us.

Here Paul describes justification as a future event. So rather than try to rationalize this statement away, we need to take it as written - there is a sense in which justification is a future event.

 

[francisdesales]

Abraham was declared righteous after his display of faith, just as we are with our display of faith in trusting in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Strawmans galore, when did I ever say man does not need to do anything for salvation, or that repentance is pointless? Please show me. I’ll repeat what I’ve been saying all along, we are saved by believing in Jesus’s work on the cross aka acknowledging that we need Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.

I see. Another person who wants their cake and eat it, too.

In the immediately preceeding response to this, you told me:

We are saying no righteousness is required for our justification.

Now, the flip flop...

Abraham was declared righteous after his display of faith

Yea, ABRAHAM'S display of righteousness. THEN, he is declared righteous.

But your previous post, when you were in your "I'm covered by Jesus" mode, you don't require righteousness, HE does it all... Well???

Strawman??? How about getting the story straight from the get-go. The later, I agree with. The former is from your forensic imputation idea. I sense your bible reading that produced the later is conflicting with the former "total depravity" that you were taught, based on one verse taken out of context...

He demands perfection because He is a perfect and just God.

Before repentance is accepted??? You'll have to excuse me, but Scriptures say otherwise NUMEROUS times. Forgive me if I do not accept your assertion...

I would like to see something that says "before God forgives, He demands perfection", or something to that effect... Your Scriptural verses do not address the issue...

If He did not, he would not be just.

I can be just if I forgive someone unconditionally, but God cannot??? Someone breaks my window, and he apologizes, I can forgive, before we discuss compensation, even if I WANT it!!!

Where does the Bible state that God demands perfect righteousness?

Matthew 5:48 – Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Straight from the lips of Jesus on that one.

Does this say what I asked??? This is refering to life AFTER sins are forgiven. There is no mention about what is required BEFORE sins are forgiven. No compensation. The striving for perfection is AFTER sin is forgiven. This may be odd to the forensic protestant, but that is what we do, because God sees us and our righteousness, since Chirst does not "cover us"...

1 John 2:6 - Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Same response...

This is a staement about our walk, AFTER we have been forgiven of sins...

Romans 8:1-4
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Nothing about demanding a perfect sin offering!... That is the point you are missing, because your focus on Christ as a "legal fiction". Christ is a sin offering, freely. Not because He is required to be one... The 'bible already establishes that God forgives the repentant man. By focusing on credits and debits to one's account, you miss the fact that Christ is an Advocate for our sake, a sin offering to God as Man's representative.

Why do you, Francis, think Jesus came to earth to die for our sins if we can be declared righteous without Him by our works?

Oh, I didn't say that. EVERYTHING we do is a gift, remember? But it IS our gift that we give back to the Father, as a little child does when he draws a picture for his mother with mom's crayons and moms paper in moms house wearing clothes that mom bought. Mom still loves that picture, though... We cannot OBLIGATE God by works (romans 4:4 - work demands wages). No one can come to God and demand wages. It is a gift. And it is righteousness, from the time of Abel to now.

Your logic is based upon a THEORY, the Theory of Atonement, which presumes a number of things, some of which are not found int he Bible. It does not take into account what the Bible actually says, over and over and over again...

Wait, so point me to the verse that says that Christ and his shed blood was NOT a sin offering on our behalf?

It is a sin offering on our behalf. I disagree with some of the conclusion Prot. reach from that theory, however, such as forensic imputation. And that Christ had to die and the Father demanded blood. That doesn't jive with the idea of God in the Bible...

I'll have cover this all over again...

Why does man require sanctification, if we are covered with perfection already???

The covering of our sins by Jesus’s blood is what allows us to enter into the inner-most sanctuary and have a relationship with God like Jesus had.

The term "covering" means something else to you then it does in Scriptures. we are not covered. YOu have already said that one is justified upon an act of faith. If we are covered, there is no faith that God looks at from us...

Legal imputation does not imply any sort of close relationship. That is legal terminology. Thus, we stress that Christ is INFUSED within us. It becomes OUR righteousness, but not self-generated. We are indeed transformerd into a new creation, and it is good, as all things the Father creates. Thus, there is no need for a legal fiction. Legal fiction is not concerned with relationships.

The curtain refers to the OLD Law as being finished. Man could always come before God, even in the OT, in prayer. The point is that we are linked with the High Priest, so Christ can plead for our sakes. The Church is the Body of Christ, the High Priest Himself.

That’s what we mean by “covered with perfectionâ€.

The point of that comment is to state that our righteousness no longer matters, that God only looks at Christ. You are again wanting your cake and to eat it... This is the problem with this scheme. It is inconsistenly applied and doesn't take the logic to completion.

If Christ covers me, pray tell why does my holiness matter??? Your explanation only makes sense if we are NOT covered and that we rely on the Advocate when we fail, while God does view our OWN righteousness. It sounds like you are half way between.

Regards

 

[stranger]

LaCrum wrote:

Abraham was declared righteous after his display of faith

,

What are you regarding as a display of faith? Believing or acting on a belief? Believing will lead to faith alone (which James pronounced dead) - acting on a belief leads to faith and deeds.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives
And from your father's house,To the land which I will show you..... v2,3 blessing of Abraham follows....

Gen 12: 4So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him

So this raises the question --- did God ask Abram to believe or to go?

Some situations God required Abraham to believe - like a promised son in old age - sometimes there follows a manifested work of God (sign) - but more often than not God requires we 'go forth'.

 

[glorydaz]

No verse cancels out another, but there are certainly a lot of verses that are used to lay charge against the elect of God by those who seem more interested in tearing down rather than building up the body. This "no responsibility" gospel you claim to be seeing is nothing more than denial of the power of God. You seem to be unable to discern between believers and "professing believers". No believer I've ever met is content to walk in sin or the flesh. No believer I've ever met has anything less than complete trust and confidence in the Lord. All true believers love the Lord and strive mightily to please him. Those who spend all their time spreading doubt and fear are not walking in the Spirit, they are walking in the flesh. They are serving the cause of Satan...not God. Denying the power of God to save and keep His own is nothing more than UNBELIEF.

You are constantly putting the responsibility back on God. Christians will be judged too. There are errors of pride in the spirit as well...hence spiritual pride. I have walked long enough in the Lord to see this. I used to see only the power side as you do. This can appear very holy indeed. How can I be wrong about God's power I also thought. The holier than thou attitude can seem so right.

But God limits Himself to our faith and faithfulness. If we were inanimate objects like trees, then only God's power would tell. A tree gives it's fruit in season...and it doesn't run away from the pruners' shears! For us to be completely given over to God's power we need true Christian character....humility, trust, faith, faithfulness. These are qualities that come from our will and our decisions.

I do believe in the perfect walk in God's power. But I also know what gets in the way of such a walk. The human heart is easily deceived. To bang the spiritual drum makes one proud. The hidden sins of pride are worse than the open sins of before.

Eternal life is not a free gift, but it is freely given to they who surrender all for Christ. We must be willing and obedient. Stop operating from pride and look to the bible for the proper balance regarding God's righteous requirements.

"If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;" Is 1:19

The difficulty of this could be exemplified by the difficulty you will have in admitting that you have much spiritual pride....which will judge you. You see, even a child is known by his ways. Learn wisdom. Wisdom is not against the power of Almighty God as I had to learn. Actually, God wants us to learn wisdom. The fearlessness we have in the Spirit needs to be constantly balanced with the fear of the Lord. No one can claim to now be so holy as to not need to fear. The very truth of God's reality should bring fear, were we to be wise. Let's not forget our place and come under the condemnation of the devil.

Ah yes, accusing the other person is always the quickest way to escape taking responsibility for one's own actions. I speak of those who tear down instead of build up and you decide to throw down the gauntlet of spiritual pride. Am I the one who thinks it's by my own will I can develop Christian characteristics? That I can, by my own determintation, develop trust and become humble?

We don't develop humility or trust by an act of the will. The will of man is but the flesh attempting to do, by it's own determination, something that can only be achieved by the Spirit of God. We are brought to the place of humility and trust by the chastening that has taken place in our lives. We should be giving God the glory for His work in us instead of claiming it's by an act of our will that we are able to trust in God and be "humble".

Maybe you're arguing just for the sake of argument, I'm not sure. It still gets back to building up the body of Christ instead of tearing it down. You may assume whatever you want about me, I'm not concerned about that. I am concerned about the trend I see that goes to a lot of finger-pointing and doubt in God's ability to keep those who are His. You speak of surrender, and that's good. But you seem to deny the fact that all who are born of God are being perfected by the Holy Spirit's work in their lives.

I don't agree with your understanding of the "fear" believers have of their Father. We can be assured that all things work together for good when we love God. We love God or we wouldn't be saved to begin with. We stand in awe of His power and can rejoice when trials come upon us, for we are assured they are for our benefit. If I fail to obey His voice, I'm confident in knowing He is ever faithful to correct me...that brings peace and joy to my heart...not fear. It keeps me in a perpetual state of awe at His love for me.

Children take great comfort in knowing they have boundaries. They can trust they are kept safe by their ever watchful parent who loves them and will not allow them to stray outside their protective care. I see that as pride in one's parent, rather than pride in self. Do we keep ourselves, or does He keep us? That's a question we each have to answer. Where does our faith rest?

 

[glorydaz]

We NEED TO LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS aswell as having the righteousness of Christ imparted to us by faith. We are to add to our faith the virtues of godly character that allow us to KEEP what we have been given.


The advice you give is very good.

We are being tested...

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary. Men cannot be righteous AT ALL, in their estimation, on account of misinterpretation and false conclusions. Naturally, men cannot be righteous of their OWN accord, but we are told that we receive gifts from God, grace. And with this grace, we CAN become righteous, as we learn to become humble, repentant, and pure of heart, circumcised in the Spirit.

Regards

Adullam is correct...we need to have the righteousness of Christ imparted to us by faith...that is what justifies us before God.

Joe, what you are talking about is the process of sanctification. No one is denying man is being made righteous by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not, however, the righteousness whereby we are justified. We are not righteous enough to come before the throne apart from Christ's righteousness. You continue to misrepresent what's been said. I will add, for all your talk of humility, it isn't in evidence. Thus the need for the perfect righteousness of Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

Christ is our MEDIATOR, not our covering. Big difference that you are overlooking. Do you know what a mediator is???

I do..it does not mean a negotiator, as you seem to think.

Jesus goes between man and God. The only way man can come to God is through the body and blood of Christ. It is only by our position IN CHRIST that we can come before the throne of God.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

He appears in the presence of God FOR US.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The Bible doesn't call Jesus Christ OUR righteousness. The righteousness of God freely forgives us when we turn to Him. The righteousness of God is calling to mind that His mercy and forgiveness is ever present to those who imperfectly beg for forgiveness from Him. Grace reigns THROUGH His righteousness. We are seen righteous and just, throughout the Bible, when we have a pure heart and a humble disposition.

His NAME whereby He is called ...Our Righteousness.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I'd be very interested in meeting the man who has a pure heart and a humble disposition.

Oh, that's right...He came and walked among us.
We are seen as righteous because we are IN CHRIST, not because we manage to show forth some righteous fruit on a regular basis.

God doesn't require blood to enact forgiveness. We don't worship a blood thirsty God. That idea is very strange to Christianity. Perhaps at another time, we will discuss that. However, the Bible, oddly enough, never discusses WHY blood is 'required' or how such sacrifices appease God...

I'm sure God doesn't appreciate being called "blood thirsty" just because you don't understand the need for the blood sacrifice. The Bible does, indeed, tell us why blood is required and why God was appeased by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It's clear we need to start a thread on this topic.

 

[Drew]

Abraham was declared righteous after his display of faith, just as we are with our display of faith in trusting in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. us in order to fully meet the righteous requirements of the law? Why is the term “fully†used here.

I, for one, am in no way denying this.

But please, please remember that we also have Paul speaking of a future justification (Romans 2, if not elsewhere). If we are to take Paul seriously, and I believe you want to do that, we need to take him seriously about those statements as well.

There is a way to make sense of this all, and I suggest that it is this: Abraham was indeed declared righteous at the point of "belief" but only because God most assuredly transformed Abraham into the kind of person whose "good works" will justify him at the Romans 2 judgement.

In other words, justification by faith "in the present" is really an anticipation of the positive outcome of a future "good works" judgement.

And I will not tire of pointing out the following:

1. It is God, not Abraham, who is responsible for those good works;

2. All Pauline statements denying justification by works are really, if the context is honoured, declarations that salvation (justification) is not limited to Jews - those who do the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[glorydaz]

Nothing about demanding a perfect sin offering!... That is the point you are missing, because your focus on Christ as a "legal fiction". Christ is a sin offering, freely. Not because He is required to be one... The 'bible already establishes that God forgives the repentant man. By focusing on credits and debits to one's account, you miss the fact that Christ is an Advocate for our sake, a sin offering to God as Man's representative.

Your logic is based upon a THEORY, the Theory of Atonement, which presumes a number of things, some of which are not found int he Bible. It does not take into account what the Bible actually says, over and over and over again...

It is a sin offering on our behalf. I disagree with some of the conclusion Prot. reach from that theory, however, such as forensic imputation. And that Christ had to die and the Father demanded blood. That doesn't jive with the idea of God in the Bible...

Well, well...so Christ just came for the fun of it, then?
This "legal fiction" as you call it is the basis of the Gospel message.
Have you not read, "without blood there is no remission of sin"?

Repenting doesn't remove sin, but believing in the work of the cross means our sins are not imputed to us and Christ's righteousness is. I'm really surprised you don't believe in the atonement of Christ for our sins. I'm sure I learned about that in Catholic school. You'd best check with your church on this one, Joe. I'll be very disappointed to find out what you're preaching here is what the CC believes.

The curtain refers to the OLD Law as being finished. Man could always come before God, even in the OT, in prayer. The point is that we are linked with the High Priest, so Christ can plead for our sakes. The Church is the Body of Christ, the High Priest Himself.


The point of that comment is to state that our righteousness no longer matters, that God only looks at Christ. You are again wanting your cake and to eat it... This is the problem with this scheme. It is inconsistenly applied and doesn't take the logic to completion.

If Christ covers me, pray tell why does my holiness matter???

Your "holiness" doesn't matter in regards to your salvation, and you should rejoice that it's so. It does matter in regards to your walk and your fellowship with God. You can live a life of victory or defeat, you can be a profitable or unprofitable servant. You can spend your entire life being chastened, or you can learn to grow into maturity and gain many rewards when the Lord returns.

 

[glorydaz]

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary.

And this is the perfect example of how you still are not understanding what we are saying. We are saying no righteousness is required for our justification. Justification is a free gift given by the grace of God. The fact is God demands righteousness, perfect righteousness. But obviously this is impossible for man to acheive alone. So how does God get around having to send us all to hell because of his perfect justice? He sends his Son in our place, and justifies, or pardons us of our sins. And once we are justified and sealed with the Holy Spirit, He can begin his good work in us (sanctification) to make us more and more like his Son.

Amen...it is so refreshing to see the true message of the Gospel being put forth amidst so much confusion.

 

[Drew]

Your "holiness" doesn't matter in regards to your salvation,....

Paul does not share your view on this matter:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

I know that you have rather interesting ideas on what these texts mean, but I just thought I would present them again.

I am sure you agree that the word of God, whatever it actually means, is indeed powerful and authoritative.

 

[Drew]

Amen...it is so refreshing to see the true message of the Gospel being put forth amidst so much confusion.

Do you mean the kind of confusion where posters think they have access to the true rendering of Romans 2:6-7, despite what all the translators have come up with (those silly old Bible scholars and their careful, studied approach)?

Do you mean the kind of confusion where the Romans 8:13 text is reworked so that it loses its clear specific directedness to believers?

Yes, I agree, there is indeed a lot of confusion here.