The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[Adullam]

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. Prov. 20:11

Isaiah 64:6 “…all our righteous acts are like filthy ragsâ€

Do you know what the Hebrew word for filthy rags was? Menstrual rags. Or dirty, used tampons if you want to bring it into the 21st century. That is how the prophet Isaiah described our righteous acts. Our righteous acts don’t bring us into right standing with God, only his Son’s blood spilled on our behalf has the ability to do that.

Understanding that Justification and Sanctification are two distinct and separate processes, one which must happen for the other to begin, is not that hard of a concept to understand. It's time to ween from the milk and chew on some solid food.

Are you saying that certain preferred verses cancel out others that are less preferred? I am trying to bring balance to the "no responsibility" gospel. God's way is equal....not skewed. Certain "magic verses" don't cancel out the rest of the bible.

The "good" verses are for the new man. The "bad" verses are for the old sinful nature man. When one seeks to destroy the effects of the cross by negating the hardness of God's requirements...then one suspects the sinful flesh trying to be saved (as usual). Men will try anything to avoid death. If this is not understood, then it surely is the flesh resisting the whole council of God.

 

[glorydaz]

You want it both ways, don't you.

WHY must I be conformed to Christ if I am completely covered?

What don't you get about this??? Why must God conform me WHILE completely covering me? What is the point of erecting a legal fiction IF I am being conformed - and this conforming varies with all men?

Indeed.

And gd tends to be very selective about which texts from Romans 8 she accepts as written, and which ones she reworks. So, here, she embraces the bit about being conformed to the image of Christ. And yet she takes Romans 8:10-13 text, and re-works the english to suggest that Paul cannot be talking about believers when he writes of people getting life based on walking according to the Spirit.

Tell you what, guys...you go ahead and try to gain access to the throne based on your "fruit". You won't be allowed in. You just aren't righteous enough to approach God without the righteousness of Christ shielding you from God. Any sin...no matter how "venial" is not allowed in God's presence.

Christ's name is "Our Righteousness" for a reason. And, Drew, I have to laugh at your comment. You with the selective reading dictating your doctrine. You don't seem to grasp the concept of Life. Our "walk" in not our LIFE. Those with the Holy Spirit have life. Paul gives you the information upside down and backwards...coming at you from every direction, and still you persist in misreading one text and ignoring every other word that comes before and after the verse you twist to fit your own human understanding. Study up on the Law of the Spirit of Life. As I've said before, you'd better pray Paul isn't saying what you claim, or none would be saved...including you.

Joe, Christ's righteousness covers us in the same way the blood was put over the door post. Those inside the house can be quaking in fear and filled with doubt..but the death angel sees the blood and passes over. It's all about the blood...and your blood just isn't going to cut it. God requires a spotless Lamb, without blemish. Without the blood and body of Christ, no man can enter into the presence of a Holy God. We are not righteous...we simply live in the Righteous One. We are slowly being transformed...some of us obviously slower than others. The first step in believing God is seeing your own sinful condition. If you continue to boast of how humble you are, then I have to question whether you've even taken that first step.

 

[glorydaz]

Merely following the external letter of the Law was an effort to apply righteousness to oneself. As the Pharisee at prayer in Luke's Gospel, he went BEYOND the letter of the Law, fasting TWICE a week. But look at his attitude, La Crum. He was arrogant, thinking he was righteous in God's eyes by what he did WITHOUT the proper internal dispositions of the heart. He was not circumcised of the heart. Now, note the tax collector in the same Gospel. He prayed with a true heart of repentance - and WITHOUT ANY ALIEN RIGHTEOUSNESS APPLIED, the man was declared Just by God!!!

Christ must be "alien" to you since you keep referring to Him that way.
That is really offensive...I wish you'd stop.

So you're claiming that the tax collector was righteous, is that correct?
Humility makes one righteous...is that what you're claiming?

It certainly makes the job of being righteous a whole lot easier.

Unfortunately, you're so wrong it almost doesn't bear addressing.
I've seen wife-beaters crying and beating their chests the next day.
They're certainly ashamed and humbled when they see those black eyes.

The tax collector was not righteous...he was justified because of his repentant heart.
God saw his heart and justified him by the faith of Christ because he believed. If we don't believe in the righteousness of Christ, we aren't justified before God. The only way man can come before the throne of grace is with the righteousness of Christ accounted to him. The tax collector knew that, he saw himself as a sinner...not righteous, but you don't. Why is that?

 

[glorydaz]

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. Prov. 20:11

Isaiah 64:6 “…all our righteous acts are like filthy ragsâ€

Do you know what the Hebrew word for filthy rags was? Menstrual rags. Or dirty, used tampons if you want to bring it into the 21st century. That is how the prophet Isaiah described our righteous acts. Our righteous acts don’t bring us into right standing with God, only his Son’s blood spilled on our behalf has the ability to do that.

Understanding that Justification and Sanctification are two distinct and separate processes, one which must happen for the other to begin, is not that hard of a concept to understand. It's time to ween from the milk and chew on some solid food.

Are you saying that certain preferred verses cancel out others that are less preferred? I am trying to bring balance to the "no responsibility" gospel. God's way is equal....not skewed. Certain "magic verses" don't cancel out the rest of the bible.

The "good" verses are for the new man. The "bad" verses are for the old sinful nature man. When one seeks to destroy the effects of the cross by negating the hardness of God's requirements...then one suspects the sinful flesh trying to be saved (as usual). Men will try anything to avoid death. If this is not understood, then it surely is the flesh resisting the whole council of God.

No verse cancels out another, but there are certainly a lot of verses that are used to lay charge against the elect of God by those who seem more interested in tearing down rather than building up the body. This "no responsibility" gospel you claim to be seeing is nothing more than denial of the power of God. You seem to be unable to discern between believers and "professing believers". No believer I've ever met is content to walk in sin or the flesh. No believer I've ever met has anything less than complete trust and confidence in the Lord. All true believers love the Lord and strive mightily to please him. Those who spend all their time spreading doubt and fear are not walking in the Spirit, they are walking in the flesh. They are serving the cause of Satan...not God. Denying the power of God to save and keep His own is nothing more than UNBELIEF.

 

[stranger]

jasoncran wrote:

yes, and if you read two verses down he wasnt talking about those that are saved , he was talking about those that go to a church and see and know that theres a god and they refuse to repent.

hi jasoncran,

Do you see any difference or contrast between v7 and v8?

Heb 6:v7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

v8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned?

 

[Adullam]

[/quote]


No verse cancels out another, but there are certainly a lot of verses that are used to lay charge against the elect of God by those who seem more interested in tearing down rather than building up the body. This "no responsibility" gospel you claim to be seeing is nothing more than denial of the power of God. You seem to be unable to discern between believers and "professing believers". No believer I've ever met is content to walk in sin or the flesh. No believer I've ever met has anything less than complete trust and confidence in the Lord. All true believers love the Lord and strive mightily to please him. Those who spend all their time spreading doubt and fear are not walking in the Spirit, they are walking in the flesh. They are serving the cause of Satan...not God. Denying the power of God to save and keep His own is nothing more than UNBELIEF.[/quote]


You are constantly putting the responsibility back on God. Christians will be judged too. There are errors of pride in the spirit as well...hence spiritual pride. I have walked long enough in the Lord to see this. I used to see only the power side as you do. This can appear very holy indeed. How can I be wrong about God's power I also thought. The holier than thou attitude can seem so right.

But God limits Himself to our faith and faithfulness. If we were inanimate objects like trees, then only God's power would tell. A tree gives it's fruit in season...and it doesn't run away from the pruners' shears! For us to be completely given over to God's power we need true Christian character....humility, trust, faith, faithfulness. These are qualities that come from our will and our decisions.

I do believe in the perfect walk in God's power. But I also know what gets in the way of such a walk. The human heart is easily deceived. To bang the spiritual drum makes one proud. The hidden sins of pride are worse than the open sins of before.

Eternal life is not a free gift, but it is freely given to they who surrender all for Christ. We must be willing and obedient. Stop operating from pride and look to the bible for the proper balance regarding God's righteous requirements.

"If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;" Is 1:19

The difficulty of this could be exemplified by the difficulty you will have in admitting that you have much spiritual pride....which will judge you. You see, even a child is known by his ways. Learn wisdom. Wisdom is not against the power of Almighty God as I had to learn. Actually, God wants us to learn wisdom. The fearlessness we have in the Spirit needs to be constantly balanced with the fear of the Lord. No one can claim to now be so holy as to not need to fear. The very truth of God's reality should bring fear, were we to be wise. Let's not forget our place and come under the condemnation of the devil.

 

[francisdesales]

You want it both ways, don't you.

WHY must I be conformed to Christ if I am completely covered?

What don't you get about this??? Why must God conform me WHILE completely covering me? What is the point of erecting a legal fiction IF I am being conformed - and this conforming varies with all men?

Tell you what, guys...you go ahead and try to gain access to the throne based on your "fruit". You won't be allowed in.

Tell you what. Why don't you just answer the question and stop ignoring it. Hiding from it will not bring closure here. It is intellectually dishonest to talk about some vaunted scheme and then ignore any questions that may call some doubt into the INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures. As Adullam states, the Bible should agree. There shouldn't be a "canon within a canon" where the writings of Paul are of greater value than the words of Jesus Christ!!!

You just aren't righteous enough to approach God without the righteousness of Christ shielding you from God. Any sin...no matter how "venial" is not allowed in God's presence.

I am not sure if I said this 20 or 25 times, but I'll say it again...

Where does the Bible say I need to be perfectly righteous?
Where does the Bible say I require the righteousness of Christ to shield me from God?
What does the Bible state is REQUIRED before sin is forgiven.

I have written a length post on this today at the "How are we made right with God" thread.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47143&p=577032#p577032

In it, you will see overwhelming Scriptural evidence for the idea that God does not REQUIRE perfection BEFORE sins are forgiven. Redressing the cosmic balance can occur AFTER forgiveness. Recompensation or payment to balance God's justice, if you want, takes effect AFTER forgiveness. But forgiveness of sin - the first step in rebuilding a ruined relationship - begins without ANYTHING but a sorrowful heart. The problem is that your scheme is based upon a corruption of the "theory of atonement", which is an INTERPRETATION of Scriptures that fails to take into account the fact that God can forgive and be merciful WITHOUT some cosmic balance redressed.

Even I can forgive someone without my "sense of justice" being corrected. I don't have to demand full payment or punishment if someone breaks my window. The PROBLEM for Protestants of this type are that they see their relationship with God as COMPLETELY legal. There is a sense of credits and debits in their mind between God and them.

We are in a familial relationship with a God of Love. Your viewpoint is incomprehensible to the overarching theme of Scriptures - that God deeply and passionately desires a familial relationship of love with mankind. He desires that we TURN to Him, not present a perfect sacrifice.

Joe, Christ's righteousness covers us in the same way the blood was put over the door post.

GD, you have refused to give me a Scriptural citation of that concept. Until then, I am not going to simply accept your assertion. Your continued refusal to do so is indicative of the flimsiness of your scheme.

Christ is our MEDIATOR, not our covering. Big difference that you are overlooking. Do you know what a mediator is???

The Bible doesn't call Jesus Christ OUR righteousness. The righteousness of God freely forgives us when we turn to Him. The righteousness of God is calling to mind that His mercy and forgiveness is ever present to those who imperfectly beg for forgiveness from Him. Grace reigns THROUGH His righteousness. We are seen righteous and just, throughout the Bible, when we have a pure heart and a humble disposition.

Those inside the house can be quaking in fear and filled with doubt..but the death angel sees the blood and passes over. It's all about the blood...and your blood just isn't going to cut it. God requires a spotless Lamb, without blemish.

God doesn't require blood to enact forgiveness. We don't worship a blood thirsty God. That idea is very strange to Christianity. Perhaps at another time, we will discuss that. However, the Bible, oddly enough, never discusses WHY blood is 'required' or how such sacrifices appease God...

Without the blood and body of Christ, no man can enter into the presence of a Holy God. We are not righteous...we simply live in the Righteous One. We are slowly being transformed...

More simple assertions. Do you actually know how to back up your point with logic and citations? This is not how you prove something, by repeating it over and over with contradictory statements...

For what purpose are we being transformed if we "simply live in the Righteous One", covered by HIS righteousness???

Must I again cite Scriptures, yes, I will...

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7

God says I am righteous when I conduct myself with "faith working in love". You say I am not. FORGIVE me, my friend, but I'll take God's Word over you. It says what it says, whether you like it or not...

The Bible says I am righteous as He is righteous, when I do righteous things (with a pure heart - Paul says works of the Law by themselves do not make one righteous). The Bible clearly speaks about people being just and righteous. Noah, Enoch, Abraham. THEY were just. As those who follow in their footsteps in faith.

 

[Adullam]

This thread is interesting of course...but confusing since we are not all speaking from the same plane. A discussion such as this would have to start with a pre-amble about the difference between the righteousness that God requires from man, and the righteousness of God that can be imparted to a man who turns to Christ in humility (like a hyper drive). These are different, but both are required to bear fruit THAT REMAINS. Many holier than thou types have experienced something of the resurrection life in Jesus. But the attitude of many has been corrupted through pride due to this experience. It takes wisdom to realize that favour can be deceitful (Chen sheker prov. 31). We are being tested here. God is testing us to see how deep our humility is. We can surrender one day and then turn on our Master the next. This is the human condition. Add the devil's deceit into the mix, and the outcome is anything but guaranteed. We need wisdom to be ABLE TO KEEP WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIFTED WITH. Wisdom is learned....and is a character trait that is ignored by the modern church as irrelevent. As irrelevent as obedience to God. Amazing blindness!

In these last days God has sent a strong delusion to fool those who do not love the truth but defend their experience...and in so doing are fooled into defending their "own" source of righteousness. If possible even the elect would be deceived.

We NEED TO LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS aswell as having the righteousness of Christ imparted to us by faith. We are to add to our faith the virtues of godly character that allow us to KEEP what we have been given.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

 

[Adullam]

The righteousness of God gives us depth....the righteousness we learn to walk in gives us width.

 

[francisdesales]

This thread is interesting of course...but confusing since we are not all speaking from the same plane. A discussion such as this would have to start with a pre-amble about the difference between the righteousness that God requires from man, and the righteousness of God that can be imparted to a man who turns to Christ in humility (like a hyper drive). These are different, but both are required to bear fruit THAT REMAINS. Many holier than thou types have experienced something of the resurrection life in Jesus. But the attitude of many has been corrupted through pride due to this experience. It takes wisdom to realize that favour can be deceitful (Chen sheker prov. 31). We are being tested here. God is testing us to see how deep our humility is. We can surrender one day and then turn on our Master the next. This is the human condition. Add the devil's deceit into the mix, and the outcome is anything but guaranteed. We need wisdom to be ABLE TO KEEP WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIFTED WITH. Wisdom is learned....and is a character trait that is ignored by the modern church as irrelevent. As irrelevent as obedience to God. Amazing blindness!

In these last days God has sent a strong delusion to fool those who do not love the truth but defend their experience...and in so doing are fooled into defending their "own" source of righteousness. If possible even the elect would be deceived.

We NEED TO LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS aswell as having the righteousness of Christ imparted to us by faith. We are to add to our faith the virtues of godly character that allow us to KEEP what we have been given.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

The advice you give is very good.

We are being tested...

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary. Men cannot be righteous AT ALL, in their estimation, on account of misinterpretation and false conclusions. Naturally, men cannot be righteous of their OWN accord, but we are told that we receive gifts from God, grace. And with this grace, we CAN become righteous, as we learn to become humble, repentant, and pure of heart, circumcised in the Spirit.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

This thread is interesting of course...but confusing since we are not all speaking from the same plane. A discussion such as this would have to start with a pre-amble about the difference between the righteousness that God requires from man, and the righteousness of God that can be imparted to a man who turns to Christ in humility (like a hyper drive). These are different, but both are required to bear fruit THAT REMAINS. Many holier than thou types have experienced something of the resurrection life in Jesus. But the attitude of many has been corrupted through pride due to this experience. It takes wisdom to realize that favour can be deceitful (Chen sheker prov. 31). We are being tested here. God is testing us to see how deep our humility is. We can surrender one day and then turn on our Master the next. This is the human condition. Add the devil's deceit into the mix, and the outcome is anything but guaranteed. We need wisdom to be ABLE TO KEEP WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIFTED WITH. Wisdom is learned....and is a character trait that is ignored by the modern church as irrelevent. As irrelevent as obedience to God. Amazing blindness!

In these last days God has sent a strong delusion to fool those who do not love the truth but defend their experience...and in so doing are fooled into defending their "own" source of righteousness. If possible even the elect would be deceived.

We NEED TO LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS aswell as having the righteousness of Christ imparted to us by faith. We are to add to our faith the virtues of godly character that allow us to KEEP what we have been given.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

The advice you give is very good.

We are being tested...

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary. Men cannot be righteous AT ALL, in their estimation, on account of misinterpretation and false conclusions. Naturally, men cannot be righteous of their OWN accord, but we are told that we receive gifts from God, grace. And with this grace, we CAN become righteous, as we learn to become humble, repentant, and pure of heart, circumcised in the Spirit.

Regards

It is ironic that the modern gospel seeks to destroy righteousness in order to uphold who they believe to be Christ. It is just more of man trying to be and feel special and aggrandized before others.

 

[francisdesales]

It is ironic that the modern gospel seeks to destroy righteousness in order to uphold who they believe to be Christ. It is just more of man trying to be and feel special and aggrandized before others.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense...

Regards

 

[stranger]

francisdesales wrote:

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary. Men cannot be righteous AT ALL, in their estimation, on account of misinterpretation and false conclusions. Naturally, men cannot be righteous of their OWN accord, but we are told that we receive gifts from God, grace. And with this grace, we CAN become righteous, as we learn to become humble, repentant, and pure of heart, circumcised in the Spirit.

Regards[/quote]


francis:

Men cannot be righteous AT ALL, in their estimation, on account of misinterpretation and false conclusions.

This is the problem --- it is called 'miserable sinner' theology. If man remains a miserable sinner - and Jesus said : anyone who sins is a slave of sin' then it follows that miserable sinner's are slaves of sin. We ask - from what then did Jesus save us if not from our sins?

The message of scripture is clear - we are to stop sinning and making excuses for living in sin- and start living righteously in the righteousness of God in Christ. The scriptures speak of many such righteous men and women.

I would think that until the righteousness of God becomes our righteousness and this can only happen when we start living it being conformed to Christlikeness, our righteousness remains hyberbole and may as well be filthy rags.

 

[jasoncran]

i find it odd when one demonation tells a person of a certain lifestyle to be celebate and yet seems to say that its possible for them to change.

very odd indeed since we are called to be holy and pure. but unless one is gay they mustnt try to pray for change and allow the Holy spirit to change those thoughts of lust for the same sex into the original design on the natural desire for the member of the opposite sex or make them a eunich on unto lord.

whose power do we believe in change?

 

[francisdesales]

This is the problem --- it is called 'miserable sinner' theology. If man remains a miserable sinner - and Jesus said : anyone who sins is a slave of sin' then it follows that miserable sinner's are slaves of sin. We ask - from what then did Jesus save us if not from our sins?

The message of scripture is clear - we are to stop sinning and making excuses for living in sin- and start living righteously in the righteousness of God in Christ. The scriptures speak of many such righteous men and women.

I would think that until the righteousness of God becomes our righteousness and this can only happen when we start living it being conformed to Christlikeness, our righteousness remains hyberbole and may as well be filthy rags.

Well, the miserable sinner theology must end upon receiving regeneration and being born from above. I think the problem is that some people are expecting to be absolutely perfect, and when they sin, oh no, I am not free from sin... Slavery to sin or to Christ is a way of life, not an absolute demand of perfection.

Perhaps the miserable sinner theology was an idea intended to throw one's arms up in the air and say 'It isn't my fault God, you'll have to do everything" and then go off like a little 4 year old brat and do whatever they want.

Regards

 

[LaCrum]

In addition, the Bible interchangeably used the words "justify" and "sanctify".

Actually it does not, as justification is instantaneous and given by the grace of God (Romans 4:3, 5:1,9, Gal 2:16,3:11, 1 Pet. 2:24, Eph. 2:8-9) otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom.6:23), and sanctification is on going (Phil 2:13). “Sanctify†in both the Greek and Hebrew means to “set apart†or “separateâ€, this, therefore, cannot be confused with “Justify†in the Greek (dikiaoo) which Paul uses, means “to declare righteous or justâ€. Justification comes from Jesus’s work on the cross, and sanctification comes from us living and growing in accordance with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

Even though we’re justified, it does not give Christians a free pass to go and sin however they want, since a true believer would feel a sense of debt and obligation for Christ’s sacrifice to live a holy life. The NT is very clear about this and neither, me, Glorydaz or Dave have EVER tried to argue otherwise.

They are practically synonymous with each other, since when one is being made holy, they are indeed righteous and just in God's eyes. No need for God to pretend, madam...

They are not synonymous with one another, not by any means for we are NOT justified by our works but by believing in and accepting the blood that Jesus spilled on the cross. Otherwise his death was for nothing. Who said anything about God pretending? The sad thing is most of this argument is brought about by a fundamental misunderstanding of what the New Covenant is.

The Bible states that Abraham was considered righteous and just in God's eyes during three separate incidents in his life. James 2 refers to Genesis 22. Romans 4 refers to Genesis 15. And Hebrews 11 speaks about being made just in God's eyes during Genesis 12...

The “justified†that James uses in James 2:24 actually is used with the other Greek definition which means “to show to be righteous or justâ€, not “to declare to be righteous or justâ€. And Romans 4 actually says: “25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.†and the title of that section says “Abraham Justified by Faithâ€. That’s what we’ve been saying all along! Only faith justifies us in God’s eyes, not works. And Hebrews 11 does not speaking about being “made justâ€. No where is “justifiedâ used in that. No where. It does say a whole lot about faith though.

 

[LaCrum]

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary.

And this is the perfect example of how you still are not understanding what we are saying. We are saying no righteousness is required for our justification. Justification is a free gift given by the grace of God. The fact is God demands righteousness, perfect righteousness. But obviously this is impossible for man to acheive alone. So how does God get around having to send us all to hell because of his perfect justice? He sends his Son in our place, and justifies, or pardons us of our sins. And once we are justified and sealed with the Holy Spirit, He can begin his good work in us (sanctification) to make us more and more like his Son.

 

[francisdesales]

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary.

And this is the perfect example of how you still are not understanding what we are saying. We are saying no righteousness is required for our justification.

What is "righteousness"? It is some rudimentary displays from man that God finds desireable, are they not? Sorrow, repentance, begging for forgiveness? Isn't this what God desires from someone BEFORE the man is called just??? Isn't that the biblical paradigm???

Was Abraham declared just before or after his display of faith?

Enoch? Noah? Abel?

Other men and women mentioned in Scriptures???

Did God first say "you are righteous", and THEN, they responded in faith? Is God ultimately picking and choosing who CAN be righteous, or does God's grace rain down on alll, both the good and the evil, and man is EXPECTED to make a response, moved by God's Spirit?

God does not see man as righteous unless man shows signs of a response to God's promptings of the Spirit. According to you, man does not need to do anything, God picks men for perdition and salvation without any basis that is known to us... All the talk from the prophets and Jesus about repenting is pointless, to you, since man can do nothing in God's eyes of value...

Justification is a free gift given by the grace of God.

I was under the impression that EVERTHING from God is a gift...

Whether it is being CALLED just or being MADE just... It's all from God - but that status is based upon our response to God's initiative.

The fact is God demands righteousness, perfect righteousness.

Maybe you were absent, so I'll ask again.

Where does the Bible state that God demands perfect righteousness???

I posted dozens of Scriptures to the contrary, in the "How are we made right before God" thread, page 13, the 4:41 am post... Over a dozen references to the Minor Prophets and nearly a dozen from the Gospels. In each case, nothing about perfection is mentioned. GOD takes the intiative when a human reaches out to Him. With a humble and contrite heart, God forgives sin. No restitituion BEFORE sin is forgiven. No compensation. Forgiveness is freely given without a requirement for perfect righteouesness...

Your logic is based upon a THEORY, the Theory of Atonement, which presumes a number of things, some of which are not found int he Bible. It does not take into account what the Bible actually says, over and over and over again...

But obviously this is impossible for man to acheive alone. So how does God get around having to send us all to hell because of his perfect justice? He sends his Son in our place, and justifies, or pardons us of our sins. And once we are justified and sealed with the Holy Spirit, He can begin his good work in us (sanctification) to make us more and more like his Son.

Ah, I guess I'll have to cover this all over again...

Why does man require sanctification, if we are covered with perfection already???

Can you see why classic protestantism was charged with liberal morality? They have disconnected religions from moral behavior. At the end of the day, who CARES if you are holy or not, as long as you have your fire insurance and your perfect blanket. Such thinking is an affront to the Gospel's DEMANDS upon the believer.

 

[Adullam]

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary.

And this is the perfect example of how you still are not understanding what we are saying. We are saying no righteousness is required for our justification. Justification is a free gift given by the grace of God. The fact is God demands righteousness, perfect righteousness. But obviously this is impossible for man to acheive alone. So how does God get around having to send us all to hell because of his perfect justice? He sends his Son in our place, and justifies, or pardons us of our sins. And once we are justified and sealed with the Holy Spirit, He can begin his good work in us (sanctification) to make us more and more like his Son.

How much righteousness is required to be a pirate?...answer...none.

How much righteousness is required to be lawless?...answer...none.

Being above the law is not the same as being an outlaw. You should rethink your entire position here. It is exactly backwards.

Jesus Christ will reject lawless believers.

And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matt 7:23

Have you not been fooled by the prince of the power of the air? Your gospel is 180 degrees backwards. Same words.... opposite meaning.

Righteousness is required for justification. That is why repentance is a pre-requisite. The heart must turn from wickedness to righteousness. God does not fill sinners with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mysteryman]

However, if you follow the conversation, there are elements here who believe that there is no righteousness required from men, despite the numerous citations from Scriptures to the contrary.

And this is the perfect example of how you still are not understanding what we are saying. We are saying no righteousness is required for our justification. Justification is a free gift given by the grace of God. The fact is God demands righteousness, perfect righteousness. But obviously this is impossible for man to acheive alone. So how does God get around having to send us all to hell because of his perfect justice? He sends his Son in our place, and justifies, or pardons us of our sins. And once we are justified and sealed with the Holy Spirit, He can begin his good work in us (sanctification) to make us more and more like his Son.

How much righteousness is required to be a pirate?...answer...none.

How much righteousness is required to be lawless?...answer...none.

Being above the law is not the same as being an outlaw. You should rethink your entire position here. It is exactly backwards.

Jesus Christ will reject lawless believers.

And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matt 7:23

Have you not been fooled by the prince of the power of the air? Your gospel is 180 degrees backwards. Same words.... opposite meaning.

Righteousness is required for justification. That is why repentance is a pre-requisite. The heart must turn from wickedness to righteousness. God does not fill sinners with the Holy Spirit.

Hi A

Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

You say that repentance is a pre-requisite. This is untrue !

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"