The mark of the Beast = The false mark of God

[Georges]

I would like to propose something on suppositions....based on fact and probabilities to determine what the mark of the Beast is.

This post is tied together with the other post I had started titled "The Mark of God".

Supposition:

1. The Book of Revelation is a Jewish prophecy book in the style of OT prophetical writing.
2. The Book of Revelation has twice the number of Jewish idioms and expressions than the other two most hebraic books of the NT (Matthew and Hebrews).

Therefore it is a good possiblity that Revelation was originally written in Hebrew (Jesus' and John's native language) and translated into Greek.

3. Revelation should be interpreted from a Jewish viewpoint and not a Gentile Christian view.

Having said that: (Speaking from a Jewish viewpoint only).....

4. In Judaism, there is an expected Messiah in the future.
5. In Judaism, there is an expected False Messiah in the future who proclaims himself to be Messiah and/or God.

Moving on....

6. The Book of Revelation states clearly that the 144000 Jewish converts to Christianity (Actually they will still be Jews, they just recieve Jesus as messiah that's all) recieve the mark of God.
7. The best evidence indicates that the seal/mark will be the Hebrew letter "shin" (refer to the other thread).
8. As a result of the marking of the 144000, they will not be harmed by any of the calamities.

Moving on....

9. The False Messiah who is a counterfiet messiah, and claims to be God, will mark his own followers with the false mark of the Beast.
10. This false mark will be close enough looking to the mark of God that many people will be fooled into taking it.
11. Through the education (witnessing) provided by the 144000, the Two Witnesses, and the flying angels, many people will not take the false "Shin", these are the tribulation martyrs.

Looking at Revelation through Hebraic eyes.....and keeping in mind that the Book is a Hebrew prophecy book....the number of the False Messiah or 666 should be calculated by Hebrew means. I believe that (and I wish there was a copy of a Revelation in Hebrew in existence), the mark of the Beast is 6,6,6. Six being the number of man in Hebrew, 6-6-6 may mean nonperfection multiplied.

The Hebrew alphabetical letter equating to 6 is Vav.

12. The Vav looks exactly like one of the arms of a "shin". To see what the "shin" looks like, view the picture under my log in name.
13. String three Vav's together and bring the bottoms close together and you have what appears to be a "shin".
14. The educated (Jew's and God Fearers) during the tribulation period will be able to distinguish between the "Shin" and the "False Shin".
15. The educated will also know not to take the "False Shin"



Many people have many complex theories about the mark of the beast. Barcodes, Chips...ets have been kicked around. I think with all of the future calamities, it's going to be a simple us against them identification. Either you got the "False Shin" or you don't. Either you side with the False Messiah, or you die. Simple as that.

 

[dcookcan]

1. The Book of Revelation is a Jewish prophecy book in the style of OT prophetical writing.
2. The Book of Revelation has twice the number of Jewish idioms and expressions than the other two most hebraic books of the NT (Matthew and Hebrews).

Therefore it is a good possiblity that Revelation was originally written in Hebrew (Jesus' and John's native language) and translated into Greek.

3. Revelation should be interpreted from a Jewish viewpoint and not a Gentile Christian view.

I agree, but we must be careful in how we define the "Jewish" viewpoint. Much like christianity, Judaism has changed over the past two thousand years. Both may have remnants of the original faith, but today's version of either religion is not the original. The Jewish Oral Torah was written hundreds of years after the christian church and Jewish synagogue had parted ways. However, that does not mean that there is nothing to gleen from the Oral Torah.

6. The Book of Revelation states clearly that the 144000 Jewish converts to Christianity (Actually they will still be Jews, they just recieve Jesus as messiah that's all) recieve the mark of God.

That is not clearly stated at all. It states that 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed. If we take into account the tribe of Benjamin and the half tribe of Levi, then Judah (i.e. Jews) may account for a larger number. Based on the Torah, Oral Torah, and Orthodox Rabbinic teachings, the tribes of the Northern Kingdom (i.e. referred to as either Israel, Ephraim, Joseph) were lost forever; they never returned from their Syrian captivity.

Christianity and Messianic Judaism teach that the 144000 are all Jewish, but I don't believe that that lines up with scripture.

Looking at Revelation through Hebraic eyes.....and keeping in mind that the Book is a Hebrew prophecy book....the number of the False Messiah or 666 should be calculated by Hebrew means. I believe that (and I wish there was a copy of a Revelation in Hebrew in existence), the mark of the Beast is 6,6,6. Six being the number of man in Hebrew, 6-6-6 may mean nonperfection multiplied.

The scripture does not support 6-6-6. It clearly states a number of six hundred and sixty and six.

12. The Vav looks exactly like one of the arms of a "shin". To see what the "shin" looks like, view the picture under my log in name.
13. String three Vav's together and bring the bottoms close together and you have what appears to be a "shin".

I can't agree with this, three vavs pushed together would look more like an "M" than a shin.

I don't know if you have read a previous thread I started that includes this topic, but here is the link:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16719

There is also another more spiritual teaching on the number of the beast that talks about the meaning of the Greek letters, which is also very interesting. I will see if I can find a link for it.

 

[Georges]

1. The Book of Revelation is a Jewish prophecy book in the style of OT prophetical writing.
2. The Book of Revelation has twice the number of Jewish idioms and expressions than the other two most hebraic books of the NT (Matthew and Hebrews).

Therefore it is a good possiblity that Revelation was originally written in Hebrew (Jesus' and John's native language) and translated into Greek.

3. Revelation should be interpreted from a Jewish viewpoint and not a Gentile Christian view.

I agree, but we must be careful in how we define the "Jewish" viewpoint. Much like christianity, Judaism has changed over the past two thousand years. Both may have remnants of the original faith, but today's version of either religion is not the original. The Jewish Oral Torah was written hundreds of years after the christian church and Jewish synagogue had parted ways. However, that does not mean that there is nothing to gleen from the Oral Torah.

6. The Book of Revelation states clearly that the 144000 Jewish converts to Christianity (Actually they will still be Jews, they just recieve Jesus as messiah that's all) recieve the mark of God.

That is not clearly stated at all. It states that 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed. If we take into account the tribe of Benjamin and the half tribe of Levi, then Judah (i.e. Jews) may account for a larger number. Based on the Torah, Oral Torah, and Orthodox Rabbinic teachings, the tribes of the Northern Kingdom (i.e. referred to as either Israel, Ephraim, Joseph) were lost forever; they never returned from their Syrian captivity.

Sorry....God knows who the tribes are....as in a post I stated earlier to you....if you accept the NT as God Inspired, then you have to accept
Rev 7:4 I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Yisra'el:
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Yehudah were sealed twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Re'uven twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Naftali twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Menashsheh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Shim`on twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Yissakhar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zevulun twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Yosef twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Binyamin were sealed twelve thousand.

as belonging to the 144000.


Christianity and Messianic Judaism teach that the 144000 are all Jewish, but I don't believe that that lines up with scripture.

It most certainly does line up with scripture........

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

speaks of a future time when both the House of Israel and Judah will have a new covenant. Clearly the 144000 will be decended from the ancient tribes.....do you not know that the Aaronic line has been isolated and confirmed by DNA? I think God who is the maker of DNA can determine who belongs to the other tribes.

Looking at Revelation through Hebraic eyes.....and keeping in mind that the Book is a Hebrew prophecy book....the number of the False Messiah or 666 should be calculated by Hebrew means. I believe that (and I wish there was a copy of a Revelation in Hebrew in existence), the mark of the Beast is 6,6,6. Six being the number of man in Hebrew, 6-6-6 may mean nonperfection multiplied.

The scripture does not support 6-6-6. It clearly states a number of six hundred and sixty and six.

Again....as I had stated, it is supposition on my part ...the Greek text does say 666, not 6-6-6. However, It is very obvious that Revelation is not a Greek book. It is only Greek in letters. Writing style, language, and concept are not Greek. You have to take the best evidence and make the best guess. I think I've provided enough for a Good consideration.

12. The Vav looks exactly like one of the arms of a "shin". To see what the "shin" looks like, view the picture under my log in name.
13. String three Vav's together and bring the bottoms close together and you have what appears to be a "shin".

I can't agree with this, three vavs pushed together would look more like an "M" than a shin.

Then you aren't doing it correctly. It looks like a "W" not an "M". Look at the picture under my name and separate the 3 arms....you have 3 "Vav's". To an untrained eye, they wouldn't notice.

I don't know if you have read a previous thread I started that includes this topic, but here is the link:


http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16719

Thanks, I'll look at it....

There is also another more spiritual teaching on the number of the beast that talks about the meaning of the Greek letters, which is also very interesting. I will see if I can find a link for it.

 

[dcookcan]

Sorry....God knows who the tribes are....as in a post I stated earlier to you....if you accept the NT as God Inspired, then you have to accept
Rev 7:4 I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Yisra'el:
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Yehudah were sealed twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Re'uven twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Naftali twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Menashsheh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Shim`on twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Yissakhar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zevulun twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Yosef twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Binyamin were sealed twelve thousand.

as belonging to the 144000.


Christianity and Messianic Judaism teach that the 144000 are all Jewish, but I don't believe that that lines up with scripture.

It most certainly does line up with scripture........

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

speaks of a future time when both the House of Israel and Judah will have a new covenant. Clearly the 144000 will be decended from the ancient tribes.....do you not know that the Aaronic line has been isolated and confirmed by DNA? I think God who is the maker of DNA can determine who belongs to the other tribes.

You are absolutely right that God knows who the tribes are and where they are. Your Hebrews reference supports my claim because it is still referring to two separate groups, Israel and Judah. Messiah will reunite them. After all, isn't that exactly what He claimed He was doing?
Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Again....as I had stated, it is supposition on my part ...the Greek text does say 666, not 6-6-6. However, It is very obvious that Revelation is not a Greek book. It is only Greek in letters. Writing style, language, and concept are not Greek. You have to take the best evidence and make the best guess. I think I've provided enough for a Good consideration.

All thoughts and conjectures should be considered worthy of further research. But if the original Hebrew was vav-vav-vav, then the Greek text would reflect the same.

Then you aren't doing it correctly. It looks like a "W" not an "M". Look at the picture under my name and separate the 3 arms....you have 3 "Vav's". To an untrained eye, they wouldn't notice.

I know how to read and write in Hebrew. I took Hebrew lessons from a wonderful young Jewish couple. I think you are confusing the fancy script version with what the ancient lettering looked like. I understand how you came to the conlusion. I simply don't agree.

 

[Cameron]

Supposition:

1. The Book of Revelation is a Jewish prophecy book in the style of OT prophetical writing.

Agreed....but rather than saying a "Jewish prophecy book" because there are other extrabiblical examples, I would think it more precise to say that the Revelation of Jesus Christ (the correct title from Rev. 1:1) is the Word of God reglardless of who wrote it.

2. The Book of Revelation has twice the number of Jewish idioms and expressions than the other two most hebraic books of the NT (Matthew and Hebrews).
Therefore it is a good possiblity that Revelation was originally written in Hebrew (Jesus' and John's native language) and translated into Greek.

There are two ways of looking at this:
1) What you call "Jewish idioms" are actually "God's idioms" that the Jews have been using.
2) John, of course was Jewish, and even though he learned Greek and became fluent in it enough to eventually write in Greek, he still thought like a Jew.

Personally, I prefer a combo of the above two. Plus to that I would add that John is ONLY records what he saw from his perspective.

Therefore, it is a big stretch to suggest that the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written in Hebrew or Aramaic, when in fact, the book was written to 7 churches in Asia Minor whose many members were Greek. God choose the Greek language to communicate further apsects of His Message of Redemption because it is more precise than Hebrew in certain area. The concept of Logos is a case in point.

The only two books of the NT that I see that were possibly written in Hebrew first or concurrently are Matthew and Hebrews.

3. Revelation should be interpreted from a Jewish viewpoint and not a Gentile Christian view.

I don't think that this premise is completely warranted. I would refine it to say it should be interpreted from God's perspective and much of that perspective is in the OT, Jewish and Pre-Jewish writings. Pre-Jewish would be Genesis up to Abraham's covenant and the book of Job.

Having said that: (Speaking from a Jewish viewpoint only).....

4. In Judaism, there is an expected Messiah in the future.
5. In Judaism, there is an expected False Messiah in the future who proclaims himself to be Messiah and/or God.

OK

Moving on....

6. The Book of Revelation states clearly that the 144000 Jewish converts to Christianity (Actually they will still be Jews, they just recieve Jesus as messiah that's all) recieve the mark of God.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ does not specificly say when the 144,000 Jewish converts become Christians except that we know they are at least by the time they stand on Mt. Zion with Jesus before the Throne in Heaven in Rev. 14:1-4. Rev. 14 is another interlude chapter that points to the events surrounding and leading up to the 7th Trumpet when Christ begins to reign.

7. The best evidence indicates that the seal/mark will be the Hebrew letter "shin" (refer to the other thread).
8. As a result of the marking of the 144000, they will not be harmed by any of the calamities.

I'll have to think about that some more. But, yes, God protects them through God's wrath that begins at 1/3 strength with the Trumpet blasts announcing the coming Kingdom and consuming wrath.

Moving on....

9. The False Messiah who is a counterfiet messiah, and claims to be God, will mark his own followers with the false mark of the Beast.
10. This false mark will be close enough looking to the mark of God that many people will be fooled into taking it.
11. Through the education (witnessing) provided by the 144000, the Two Witnesses, and the flying angels, many people will not take the false "Shin", these are the tribulation martyrs.

Looking at Revelation through Hebraic eyes.....and keeping in mind that the Book is a Hebrew prophecy book....the number of the False Messiah or 666 should be calculated by Hebrew means. I believe that (and I wish there was a copy of a Revelation in Hebrew in existence), the mark of the Beast is 6,6,6. Six being the number of man in Hebrew, 6-6-6 may mean nonperfection multiplied.

The Hebrew alphabetical letter equating to 6 is Vav.

6 is the number of man because of the order of Creation. That is unarguably the most foundational understanding. Therefore, as God has defined it; 6 = man at the most foundational level.

Secondly, God has decided to use Babylon as a type of the End. I've explained before how this works in the (6th Bowl) Thread. The End Time's world will be a "great" Babylon. Ancient Babylon's math system was based on 6 and 60. We even use there systems today to measure time and space! 60 Seconds in one minute, etc. The circle is based on 6 x 60 to measure angles. Surveyors use this system and divide by "minutes and seconds" for degree fractions.

6 is man's measure. It may be imperfect only secondary to it's foundational meaning and typological usage by God in the Revelation Jesus Christ.

12. The Vav looks exactly like one of the arms of a "shin". To see what the "shin" looks like, view the picture under my log in name.
13. String three Vav's together and bring the bottoms close together and you have what appears to be a "shin".
14. The educated (Jew's and God Fearers) during the tribulation period will be able to distinguish between the "Shin" and the "False Shin".
15. The educated will also know not to take the "False Shin"

People quote 666 in Hebrew and Greek. In Greek, the first and last letters match the first and last letters for Christ. The middle letter for Greek is the one that represents the snake curling up a tree. Greek fits quite well. However, I'd be curious to know what 666 looks like in Chadean or even Cuneiform.

Many people have many complex theories about the mark of the beast. Barcodes, Chips...ets have been kicked around. I think with all of the future calamities, it's going to be a simple us against them identification. Either you got the "False Shin" or you don't. Either you side with the False Messiah, or you die. Simple as that.

This may be true. But it will be more insiduous and horrible than anything before it.

 

[dcookcan]

People quote 666 in Hebrew and Greek. In Greek, the first and last letters match the first and last letters for Christ. The middle letter for Greek is the one that represents the snake curling up a tree. Greek fits quite well.

This was the Greek "spiritual" teaching that I was refering to. Essentially the teaching refers to:
Matthew 24:5
"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
and
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'