Bible Study The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

[lovely]

Drew,

First of all, I am sorry if my post seemed insulting to you. I did not mean it in that way at all. Please forgive me if I was clumsy.

Concerning the topic.
Are you saying that you do not believe that God knows all things in a general way, or are you taking the arminian point of view with this specific verse? The reason I ask, is because I know arminians who do not believe that God brought specific men to Him by an act of His will, but they still believe that God knows all things. I am trying to clarify what it is you are bringing to the passage.

As far as the 1 Kings verse, I was just saying that for me it is obvious that there should be a prequalifier based on God's specific act of prolonging Isaiah's life after he prayed. In other words, I agree the following could be a strong possibility.

'Drew wrote:

"The statement 'you will not recover' needs to be understood as qualified by an implicit phrase "unless you repent and turn to Me'"

I believe that Scripture supports that God knows all things, and that He is not a liar...therefore I do believe that by the actions of those in the passage that we can assume a prequalifer of "unless you repent and turn to me" is shown to be true...I think many in both camps would probably agree with me. However, it is not so clear with the Romans verse, and to add one, in my opinion, would be to go against what I believe is a basic truth in God's Word. Faith is imputed to man, by God's will, and not of his own. God foreknew those He would give to Christ.

I hope that I am being clear. I am a bit tired tonight. The Lord bless you.

 

[Drew]

Are you saying that you do not believe that God knows all things in a general way, or are you taking the arminian point of view with this specific verse? The reason I ask, is because I know arminians who do not believe that God brought specific men to Him by an act of His will, but they still believe that God knows all things. I am trying to clarify what it is you are bringing to the passage.

I believe that the Scriptures support the notion that God does not know everything about the future. I also believe the Scriptures support the notion that a free will act of acceptance is involved when someoene is saved. All men are drawn by the Spirit, some accept the gift by a free will act.

As far as the 1 Kings verse, I was just saying that for me it is obvious that there should be a prequalifier based on God's specific act of prolonging Isaiah's life after he prayed. In other words, I agree the following could be a strong possibility.

'Drew wrote:

"The statement 'you will not recover' needs to be understood as qualified by an implicit phrase "unless you repent and turn to Me'"

I believe that Scripture supports that God knows all things, and that He is not a liar...therefore I do believe that by the actions of those in the passage that we can assume a prequalifer of "unless you repent and turn to me" is shown to be true...I think many in both camps would probably agree with me.

Obviously, if it were to have determined, independent of this set of verses, that God knows the future exhaustively, then I would accept the existence of this qualifier.

In these forums, no one has made any kind of a convincing case that God indeed knows the future fully. Plus we have all sorts of texts showing God changing his mind, exhibiting regret, etc. People who believe in God's exhaustive foreknowledge think that they have made a solid case when they quote a number of Scirptures that demonstrate that God knows some things about the future. But, this simply does not establish that God knows everything about the future.

I think it is our lack of imagination that prevents us from seeing how God could accomplish his purposes with only partial knowledge of the future. The Biblicial texts do not direclty establish God's exhaustive foreknowledge - we take texts that only assert partial foreknowledge and then throw in a Biblically unjustified notion that he must know everything. Being of relatively simple minds, we simply cannot conceive how God can make all things work for His purposes without knowing the future exhaustively. But this is our limitation.

P.S. I was not insulted by your post.

 

[JM]

In these forums, no one has made any kind of a convincing case that God indeed knows the future fully.

What critia are you using to judge the "case?" When God makes known the end from the beginning†(Isaiah 46:10) how do you understand differently?

 

[Drew]

In these forums, no one has made any kind of a convincing case that God indeed knows the future fully.

What critia are you using to judge the "case?" When God makes known the end from the beginning†(Isaiah 46:10) how do you understand differently?

Allrighty, lets look at the text:

I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.

I have never disputed that God's purposes will be achieved. The point is that this text simply does not support a specifically exhaustive knowledge of the future. I will return to my as yet unchallenged analogy about me playing chess against Kasparov. We could say with certainty that Kasparov's purposes will stand, that his victory is sure, etc. Why? Because even though Kasparov does not know what moves I will make, his overwhelming superiority in respect to mastery of the game assures his victory.

The above text speaks only to general purposes being accomplished - it does not justify God's foreknowledge of every detail of every event in the Universe. We need to have a little imagination and give credit to God for his subtlety. It is we who think that the only way to assure a certain outcome is to have perfect fore-knowledge of everything. This is simply not true.

We agree that the Scriptures speak of the days of our lives being numbered. I am not certain that this is not metaphorical, but let's assume that it means literally what it says - God knows how many days we each will live. This is some foreknowledge, but not necessarily complete foreknowledge. Fred could live 33,456 days whether or not God knows whether he will drink Coke or Pepsi at the movies on 12 May, 2006. In other words, there are many "different futures" that all lead to Fred living 33,456 days.

 

[John the Baptist]

In these forums, no one has made any kind of a convincing case that God indeed knows the future fully.

What critia are you using to judge the "case?" When God makes known the end from the beginning†(Isaiah 46:10) how do you understand differently?

****
John here:
It seems that that alone should convince a sincere person, huh?
1 Corinthians 14:32

 

[Drew]

In these forums, no one has made any kind of a convincing case that God indeed knows the future fully.

What critia are you using to judge the "case?" When God makes known the end from the beginning†(Isaiah 46:10) how do you understand differently?

****
John here:
It seems that that alone should convince a sincere person, huh?
1 Corinthians 14:32

I am sure that there is a term for this "strategy" - when you cannot (or will not) discuss the content of the issue, suggest that your opponent has some kind of moral defect (e.g. is insincere). Do you think this kind of approach lends credibililty to the position for which you are advocating?

 

[John the Baptist]

Just a few more interesting verses:

Isaiah 46:10
Isaiah 41:4 (and verse 22.. Isaiah 41:22)
Isaiah 44:7
Isaiah 45:21
Isaiah 14:24
Isaiah 14:26-27
Isaiah 43:13
Isaiah 45:18
Daniel 4:17

One still might say that God makes His will to happen? That would make Him force free will, and there is no such thing as forced free will? it would be made void. Personally, I believe that even before Christ created Lucifer, he knew in eternity that he would in time, revolt. This was not God's doing, but Lucifer's freedom of choice.

--John