The Meaning Of Justified

[lowrab777]

So God may very well approve of/ or JUSTIFY sinners? that they may be deemed righteous??:dunno

 

[dadof10]

I think I see that we still do have a substantial difference. Your proposition is that you see the words faith, works, and justify in the context and therefore we can assume that it is teaching that faith and works justify.

Again, NO it's not. As I said in a previous post "I think you're misunderstanding the point here. I don't look at this issue as a Catholic thing, nor do I think we are doing an exegesis of James 2 (you and I already did that). The only point I want to draw from James 2 is that the word "justify" there means "shown to be righteous".

These are the questions I asked in the last post:

"Does Abraham actually posses "true faith" here or not? If he does, where do we disagree? My point is that Abraham actually possesses "true faith" and demonstrates this faith by obedience to God. Do you disagree?"

"I don't know. It depends on your answer to the question "Does Abraham actually posses "true faith" here or not?" My answer is "yes". If a person displays his "true faith", as Abraham and Rahab did, and it's something they actually posses, how can it ever be said they "were never justified to begin with"? If WE are to have this same kind of faith, the kind that "shows" itself to be "true" by works, how can it ever be said (IF we apostacize), "they were never justified to begin with"? It MUST be that they HAD true faith (demonstrated by their works), but lost it"

Please answer these questions as it will clarify your position ON THIS TOPIC. As I said, we have already discussed the entirety of James 2 and I really have no interest in rehashing it again here. I would like to stick to this topic. If we can "show our true faith", which I think you agree with, then IF WE APOSTICIZE, OSAS is necessarily false.

 

[lowrab777]

The only point I want to draw from James 2 is that the word "justify" there means "shown to be righteous"

APROVED!!!

YEA!!!!!

 

[mondar]

I think I see that we still do have a substantial difference. Your proposition is that you see the words faith, works, and justify in the context and therefore we can assume that it is teaching that faith and works justify.

Again, NO it's not. As I said in a previous post "I think you're misunderstanding the point here. I don't look at this issue as a Catholic thing, nor do I think we are doing an exegesis of James 2 (you and I already did that). The only point I want to draw from James 2 is that the word "justify" there means "shown to be righteous".

These are the questions I asked in the last post:

"Does Abraham actually posses "true faith" here or not? If he does, where do we disagree? My point is that Abraham actually possesses "true faith" and demonstrates this faith by obedience to God. Do you disagree?"

"I don't know. It depends on your answer to the question "Does Abraham actually posses "true faith" here or not?" My answer is "yes". If a person displays his "true faith", as Abraham and Rahab did, and it's something they actually posses, how can it ever be said they "were never justified to begin with"? If WE are to have this same kind of faith, the kind that "shows" itself to be "true" by works, how can it ever be said (IF we apostacize), "they were never justified to begin with"? It MUST be that they HAD true faith (demonstrated by their works), but lost it"

Please answer these questions as it will clarify your position ON THIS TOPIC. As I said, we have already discussed the entirety of James 2 and I really have no interest in rehashing it again here. I would like to stick to this topic. If we can "show our true faith", which I think you agree with, then IF WE APOSTICIZE, OSAS is necessarily false.

Yes, Abraham had faith.
Yes, Abraham demonstrated his faith by his works.
No, neither Abraham nor Rahab ever apostatized.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...IF WE APOSTICIZE, OSAS is necessarily false.

I wonder how the word 'apostate' can even be in the vocabulary of an OSASer. If I understand correctly, no possiblity for apostasy exists in OSAS.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I wonder how the word 'apostate' can even be in the vocabulary of an OSASer. If I understand correctly, no possiblity for apostasy exists in OSAS.

Jethro, are you truly saved?
Have you truly given your heart to Jesus?
Have you truly repented of your sins?
Are you truly walking with God?

If you answer "yes" to these questions, then I say that if you ever fall away from God, you will come back.
And if you feel that way about yourself, then you are OSAS.
And you know it.

 

[JLB]

If you answer "yes" to these questions, then I say that if you ever fall away from God, you will come back.

Ok, please show me the scripture where you have come to the conclusion that, "you will come back".

Now, I fully agree, the Lord will draw upon a person in a wayward condition.

I believe the Lord never gives up on us, even though we may fall into sin, or even a time of unbelief.

I believe a person can go through a season of rebellion and return to the Lord, even several times.

However, when a person returns from this condition, it always involves the free will to choose to do so.

Just as it's a person's free will to choose to remain in an unrepentant condition and die that way.



My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.
10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ok, please show me the scripture where you have come to the conclusion that, "you will come back".

Okay, so I can't find a verse that says you will come back.

But how do you feel about these questions?
Do you believe that you would come back?

Who can say they believe that they might not come back about themselves?

Who can say, "might I lose my salvation"?
This would tell you a lot about your relationship with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wonder how the word 'apostate' can even be in the vocabulary of an OSASer. If I understand correctly, no possiblity for apostasy exists in OSAS.

Jethro, are you truly saved?
Have you truly given your heart to Jesus?
Have you truly repented of your sins?
Are you truly walking with God?

If you answer "yes" to these questions, then I say that if you ever fall away from God, you will come back.
And if you feel that way about yourself, then you are OSAS.
And you know it.

'Yes' to all the questions above.

I know about the staying power of the Holy Spirit. Although I've never fallen away I was tempted several years ago to pursue a life changing course that was definitely a choice between Christ and going back to the world. I knew I would be giving up my relationship with Christ if I went that way. The power of God is probably the only reason I did not go that route, but I was keenly aware of my own free will to choose to submit to that power.

Many people insist we are robots and that we just kind of check out when it comes to righteousness, like we go to sleep or something, and God takes over. That is NOT how it works. They think this about salvation itself, too. That somehow there is zero merit in the capacity of a person to choose the gospel that God's gift of faith has made real to them. I don't think that's entirely the truth. God does NOT do your believing for you. He does graciously give you the power--the faith--to do that, though.

The scriptures speak pretty clearly that it's possible to change your mind about repentance from dead works and to not want or care about God's forgiveness anymore. The warning for us Christians is to not think too highly and confident of our place in Christ to the point of careless arrogance, but that is the very thing I see in the OSAS argument and worked out in the lives of many Christians.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wonder how the word 'apostate' can even be in the vocabulary of an OSASer. If I understand correctly, no possiblity for apostasy exists in OSAS.

Jethro, are you truly saved?
Have you truly given your heart to Jesus?
Have you truly repented of your sins?
Are you truly walking with God?

If you answer "yes" to these questions, then I say that if you ever fall away from God, you will come back.
And if you feel that way about yourself, then you are OSAS.
And you know it.

What I was trying to do was expose the duplicity of the OSAS doctrine.

You either believe there are apostates, or believe OSAS is true. It's impossible to have it both ways.

 

[dadof10]

I think I see that we still do have a substantial difference. Your proposition is that you see the words faith, works, and justify in the context and therefore we can assume that it is teaching that faith and works justify.

Again, NO it's not. As I said in a previous post "I think you're misunderstanding the point here. I don't look at this issue as a Catholic thing, nor do I think we are doing an exegesis of James 2 (you and I already did that). The only point I want to draw from James 2 is that the word "justify" there means "shown to be righteous".

These are the questions I asked in the last post:

"Does Abraham actually posses "true faith" here or not? If he does, where do we disagree? My point is that Abraham actually possesses "true faith" and demonstrates this faith by obedience to God. Do you disagree?"

"I don't know. It depends on your answer to the question "Does Abraham actually posses "true faith" here or not?" My answer is "yes". If a person displays his "true faith", as Abraham and Rahab did, and it's something they actually posses, how can it ever be said they "were never justified to begin with"? If WE are to have this same kind of faith, the kind that "shows" itself to be "true" by works, how can it ever be said (IF we apostacize), "they were never justified to begin with"? It MUST be that they HAD true faith (demonstrated by their works), but lost it"

Please answer these questions as it will clarify your position ON THIS TOPIC. As I said, we have already discussed the entirety of James 2 and I really have no interest in rehashing it again here. I would like to stick to this topic. If we can "show our true faith", which I think you agree with, then IF WE APOSTICIZE, OSAS is necessarily false.

Yes, Abraham had faith.
Yes, Abraham demonstrated his faith by his works.
No, neither Abraham nor Rahab ever apostatized.

I agree, they both had "true faith", "showed" it by their works and never apostatized. Now, I think you believe that James' teaching here is that WE are to posess this "kind" of faith, and when we do, we will "show" it by OUR works. That's the meaning of "justified" in James 2, right? If I have your view wrong, please correct me.

If a person who has "shown" his "saving faith" (a possibility according to James) apostatizes, we can never say "he was never saved in the first place" because he has SHOWN he was actually saved. This is the only logical possibility, if you interpret "justify" in James 2 as "shown to be righteous".

 

[dadof10]

...IF WE APOSTICIZE, OSAS is necessarily false.

I wonder how the word 'apostate' can even be in the vocabulary of an OSASer. If I understand correctly, no possiblity for apostasy exists in OSAS.

Humm... Good point, unless "apostatize" (which I'm finally spelling right, thanks Mondar) only means to reject previously held beliefs, and not reject Christ Himself.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What I was trying to do was expose the duplicity of the OSAS doctrine. You either believe there are apostates, or believe OSAS is true. It's impossible to have it both ways.

I understand what you are saying.

How about this:

Related Wordsbetrayer, double-crosser, quisling, traitor, traitress (or traitoress), turnabout, turncoat; abandoner, come-outer, dropout, leaver; defier, insurgent, insurrectionary, insurrectionist, mutineer, rebel, red, revolter, revolutionary, revolutionist, revolutionizer; discontent, malcontent; recusant, refusenik (also refusnik), refuse

Can any of these describe a true believer or do they rather describe someone like Judas?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...IF WE APOSTICIZE, OSAS is necessarily false.

I wonder how the word 'apostate' can even be in the vocabulary of an OSASer. If I understand correctly, no possiblity for apostasy exists in OSAS.

Humm... Good point, unless "apostatize" (which I'm finally spelling right, thanks Mondar) only means to reject previously held beliefs, and not reject Christ Himself.

I just thought you were English or something, lol.

They spell weird...and they drive on the wrong side of the road.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I was trying to do was expose the duplicity of the OSAS doctrine. You either believe there are apostates, or believe OSAS is true. It's impossible to have it both ways.

I understand what you are saying.

How about this:

Related Wordsbetrayer, double-crosser, quisling, traitor, traitress (or traitoress), turnabout, turncoat; abandoner, come-outer, dropout, leaver; defier, insurgent, insurrectionary, insurrectionist, mutineer, rebel, red, revolter, revolutionary, revolutionist, revolutionizer; discontent, malcontent; recusant, refusenik (also refusnik), refuse

Can any of these describe a true believer or do they rather describe someone like Judas?

What OSAS forces me to wonder is if all faith saves, or just faith that doesn't have questions or some struggle attached. But instead of going there, the Bible says the faith that saves is the faith that has works attached.

OSAS would have Judas to have never been saved. Non-OSAS would say he did believe, but other more compelling interests won out over his faith and led him into a rejection of faith in Christ.

It seems the matter is not so much about the nature of faith itself, but if said faith is able to overcome and persevere. And we know if our faith is persevering by what it's doing. Instead we seem to look at it from an 'all or nothing' point of view. But that is how we in the church seem to look at everything.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I was trying to do was expose the duplicity of the OSAS doctrine. You either believe there are apostates, or believe OSAS is true. It's impossible to have it both ways.

I understand what you are saying.

How about this:

Related Wordsbetrayer, double-crosser, quisling, traitor, traitress (or traitoress), turnabout, turncoat; abandoner, come-outer, dropout, leaver; defier, insurgent, insurrectionary, insurrectionist, mutineer, rebel, red, revolter, revolutionary, revolutionist, revolutionizer; discontent, malcontent; recusant, refusenik (also refusnik), refuse

Can any of these describe a true believer or do they rather describe someone like Judas?

Oh, and these are interesting definitions. I'll read through them and relate them to this matter of faith. Do they have to mean that the rejection of faith was from the beginning, or adopted later as an alternate to the faith one had at first? I'll keep that in mind as I read.

For the record, I like 'refusnik'.

 

[dadof10]

Ok, please show me the scripture where you have come to the conclusion that, "you will come back".

Okay, so I can't find a verse that says you will come back.

But how do you feel about these questions?
Do you believe that you would come back?

Who can say they believe that they might not come back about themselves?

Who can say, "might I lose my salvation"?
This would tell you a lot about your relationship with God.

Allen, I think people change and so do their views. Of course I can't see a time when I would reject Christ, but circumstances within life, and the constant tempting of Satan, MIGHT turn me from His love. As Scripture says, that's why I have to be vigilant. Let me give you two examples.

My daughter, when she was young, said NUMEROUS times to me, "I will NEVER start smoking. It's bad for you." I encouraged her not to, the school taught her that smoking was bad, TV and radio ads blasted anti-smoking messages all the time. Yet, she started smoking. Why? The temptation and peer pressure were too great. Even though she had EVERY INTENTION of not smoking, she gave in.

I knew a guy who had a lukewarm relationship with God, I think he even went to church. He lost his son in a terrible accident (a garbage truck ran him over), and after that became a vitriolic anti-God crusader. He said he didn't "blame God", but changed his mind about the existence of God because "how could a loving God take my son in such a horrible way? Either he doesn't exist, or he's evil, and I want no part in him." I don't know whether he ever said, before his son was killed, that he would "never apostatize", but there have been cases where "saved Christians" went through some horrible event, and came out the other side questioning God's existence, even going so far as to fully apostatize, like my acquaintance.

My point here is that we can "never say never". As Scripture points out numerous times, we MUST keep watch. That's why surrounding ourselves with the Church is so important. We Catholics even go so far as to say that missing Mass on Sunday is a sin, and this is one big reason. We humans always want to take the "lane of least resistance" and because we have free will, God allows us to. But sometimes that lane leads away from God and we can't see it until it's too late. Then we have to repent...

 

[dadof10]

I just thought you were English or something, lol.

They spell weird...and they drive on the wrong side of the road.

LOL...No, not English, just a truck driver...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

For the record, I like 'refusnik'.

I don't know whether to laugh at this or "drive on the wrong side of the road.
I think I'll laugh at them both.
Thank you for keeping this conversation of serious matters on the light side.

 

[JLB]

Ok, please show me the scripture where you have come to the conclusion that, "you will come back".

Okay, so I can't find a verse that says you will come back.

But how do you feel about these questions?
Do you believe that you would come back?

Who can say they believe that they might not come back about themselves?

Who can say, "might I lose my salvation"?
This would tell you a lot about your relationship with God.

Your statement is based on mans doctrine, and has no biblical bearing.

as it is written -

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

However, I do agree with you in part, because of God's grace and faithfulness to us.

His great love for us, as well as His mercy and Grace.

This should not be taken to the extreme where we think that no matter what we do, or how we choose to live after we are born again, that we are somehow automatically going to come back.

Let's agree on the ground where we can, and continue to live soberly as we see the day approaching, and encourage other to do so as well.


JLB