The Mormon Belief of Deification

[proveallthings]

It is reported that some use this teaching to justify the murder of those who turn from mormonism, or got in the way of their lust for women and power?

Thomas Coleman murder

An example used by some to illustrate the alleged practice blood atonement is the 1866 murder of the former-slave, Thomas Coleman (or Colburn), who was in good standing as a member of the LDS Church. As Mormon historian D. Michael Quinn has documented, Coleman was apparently secretly courting a white Mormon woman. At one of their clandestine meetings behind the old Arsenal (on what is now Capitol Hill in Salt Lake) on December 11, Coleman was discovered by "friends" of the woman. The group of vigilantes hit Coleman with a large rock. Using his own bowie knife, his attackers slit his throat so deeply from ear to ear that he was nearly decapitated, as well as slicing open his right breast, in what some believe was a mimicry of penalties illustrated in the temple ritual. Not all of Coleman's wounds correlated with the temple ritual, however, since he was also castrated. A pre-penciled placard was then pinned to his corpse stating, "NOTICE TO ALL N*****S - TAKE WARNING - LEAVE WHITE WOMEN ALONE." Even though it was the middle of winter, a grave was dug and Coleman's body was buried. The body was disposed of in less than three hours after its discovery. Less than twelve hours after that, Judge Elias Smith, first cousin of Joseph Smith, appointed George Stringham (a Mormon ruffian and vigilante with ties to Porter Rockwell, Jason Luce, and William Hickman) as the foreman of the Coroner's Jury; they briefly met and summarily dismissed the case as a crime that was committed either by a person or by persons unknown to the jury, abruptly ending all official inquiry into the bizarre murder.[

The difficulty here is that "blood atonement" was supposedly applied to endowed Mormons who apostatized. While Coleman may have been a Mormon, he definitely wasn't an endowed member, nor was he an apostate. Assuming the reported circumstances of his death are true, they are a tragic example of racism and lynching, one all too common in that time period.

 

[George Muller]

It is reported that some use this teaching to justify the murder of those who turn from mormonism, or got in the way of their lust for women and power?

Thomas Coleman murder

An example used by some to illustrate the alleged practice blood atonement is the 1866 murder of the former-slave, Thomas Coleman (or Colburn), who was in good standing as a member of the LDS Church. As Mormon historian D. Michael Quinn has documented, Coleman was apparently secretly courting a white Mormon woman. At one of their clandestine meetings behind the old Arsenal (on what is now Capitol Hill in Salt Lake) on December 11, Coleman was discovered by "friends" of the woman. The group of vigilantes hit Coleman with a large rock. Using his own bowie knife, his attackers slit his throat so deeply from ear to ear that he was nearly decapitated, as well as slicing open his right breast, in what some believe was a mimicry of penalties illustrated in the temple ritual. Not all of Coleman's wounds correlated with the temple ritual, however, since he was also castrated. A pre-penciled placard was then pinned to his corpse stating, "NOTICE TO ALL N*****S - TAKE WARNING - LEAVE WHITE WOMEN ALONE." Even though it was the middle of winter, a grave was dug and Coleman's body was buried. The body was disposed of in less than three hours after its discovery. Less than twelve hours after that, Judge Elias Smith, first cousin of Joseph Smith, appointed George Stringham (a Mormon ruffian and vigilante with ties to Porter Rockwell, Jason Luce, and William Hickman) as the foreman of the Coroner's Jury; they briefly met and summarily dismissed the case as a crime that was committed either by a person or by persons unknown to the jury, abruptly ending all official inquiry into the bizarre murder.[

The difficulty here is that "blood atonement" was supposedly applied to endowed Mormons who apostatized. While Coleman may have been a Mormon, he definitely wasn't an endowed member, nor was he an apostate. Assuming the reported circumstances of his death are true, they are a tragic example of racism and lynching, one all too common in that time period.

Yes when men form religious groups that promote evil, and then use the name of God to cover that evil, it is a very sad thing. I doubt one should think such people represent the truth of Christ?

 

[Webb]

In Matt.5:22 Jesus said calling one a "fool" put the caller in "danger of hell fire." He made no exceptions or qualifications. You gentlemen need to calm down.

 

[By Grace]

Re: The Mormon Belief of Deification In Matt.5:22 Jesus said calling one a "fool" put the caller in "danger of hell fire." He made no exceptions or qualifications. You gentlemen need to calm down.

In this thread, I DID NOT call another poster a "fool".

The discussion at hand is the verse from the BoM which calls Bible believers fools:

Again, here is your original statement:

Originally Posted by proveallthings This is a very interesting group of statements. Speaking from my perspective as a Mormon, we Mormons actually perceive that we believe in the accuracy of the Bible as much or more than most Evangelicals. 2 Nephi 29:6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

Also there is the matter of this patently false statement:

Originally Posted by proveallthings This is a very interesting group of statements. Speaking from my perspective as a Mormon, we Mormons actually perceive that we believe in the accuracy of the Bible as much or more than most Evangelicals.

Your attention to those details will be appreciated.

 

[proveallthings]

The discussion at hand is the verse from the BoM which calls Bible believers fools:
"2 Nephi 29:6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?"

So where in this BofM scripture does it criticise “Bible believers� You keep saying this, but it is an obvious false statement that creates another one of your straw men. It strongly infers that the Book of Mormon is against people believing in the Bible, which is just the opposite of reality. If you read this verse in context with the intent to understand instead of a determination to find fault, you will find that it is criticising the behavior of SAYING the Bible is all there is or ever will be.
And again, I did not bring this scripture into this discussion, for I do not think it applies to our topic. But since you brought it up, why not focus on the reasons that are given for calling such behavior foolish? By ignoring them, you are giving the impression that you have no way of answering them.

Also there is the matter of this patently false statement:

Originally Posted by proveallthings This is a very interesting group of statements. Speaking from my perspective as a Mormon, we Mormons actually perceive that we believe in the accuracy of the Bible as much or more than most Evangelicals.

Your attention to those details will be appreciated.

And interesting details they are. Please read this statement again that you call false and notice that it is referring to the perception that Mormons have. In order for you to know if this statement is false or not, you would have to know what Mormons perceive. How could you possibly know that? You could say that Mormons perception is incorrect, which is simply restating the obvious of what you believe. A productive way for you to handle this would be to consider the reasons I gave for this perception and focus on those.

 

[proveallthings]

It is reported that some use this teaching to justify the murder of those who turn from mormonism, or got in the way of their lust for women and power?

The difficulty here is that "blood atonement" was supposedly applied to endowed Mormons who apostatized. While Coleman may have been a Mormon, he definitely wasn't an endowed member, nor was he an apostate. Assuming the reported circumstances of his death are true, they are a tragic example of racism and lynching, one all too common in that time period.

Yes when men form religious groups that promote evil, and then use the name of God to cover that evil, it is a very sad thing. I doubt one should think such people represent the truth of Christ?

First of all, the idea of blood atonement being applied to Mormons who apostatized was a false accusation by the critics. So my statement was showing that applying blood atonement to this case by the critics contradicted their own claims.

It is indeed a sad thing for any religious group to promote evil and to use God to cover that evil. The leadership of the LDS church has been falsely accused of this, but an earnest seeker of truth will find that there is no reliable evidence whatsoever that supports this claim.

It is also a very sad thing when people claiming to be Christian would stoop so low as to accuse other people claiming to be Christian of such horrible deeds without first checking out the other side of the story.

 

[George Muller]

It is reported that some use this teaching to justify the murder of those who turn from mormonism, or got in the way of their lust for women and power?

The difficulty here is that "blood atonement" was supposedly applied to endowed Mormons who apostatized. While Coleman may have been a Mormon, he definitely wasn't an endowed member, nor was he an apostate. Assuming the reported circumstances of his death are true, they are a tragic example of racism and lynching, one all too common in that time period.

Yes when men form religious groups that promote evil, and then use the name of God to cover that evil, it is a very sad thing. I doubt one should think such people represent the truth of Christ?

First of all, the idea of blood atonement being applied to Mormons who apostatized was a false accusation by the critics. So my statement was showing that applying blood atonement to this case by the critics contradicted their own claims.

It is indeed a sad thing for any religious group to promote evil and to use God to cover that evil. The leadership of the LDS church has been falsely accused of this, but an earnest seeker of truth will find that there is no reliable evidence whatsoever that supports this claim.

It is also a very sad thing when people claiming to be Christian would stoop so low as to accuse other people claiming to be Christian of such horrible deeds without first checking out the other side of the story.

Well, the facts of the case in which I posted are well establised and if there is conflicting data, you could have posted that. The practice of blood atonement is written in the doctrines and records of this group, and cannot be denied. As far as the excuse that other people do evil things in the name of God, will not get anyone out of the judgment of God, when He rewards these people for their many evil deeds. If warning other Christians about evil men and false cults is to be counted as wrong by you? Then I am glad we have two very different understandings of what it means to honor God and serve His people.

 

[By Grace]

It is also a very sad thing when people claiming to be Christian would stoop so low as to accuse other people claiming to be Christian of such horrible deeds without first checking out the other side of the story.

You attack Christians, and that is your apologetic to support the heresy of deification, found in the BoM, and in the Lorenzo Snow couplet?

THAT despicable action demonstrated the moral bankruptcy and the utter lack of truth in the Mormon cult.

Shame on you!

 

[Jamesone5]

proveallthings,

I want to thank you here for basically reminding me of what a huge Miracle it was when God brought me out of the Mormon Church. It certainly was not my Wisdom, but rather God who showed me the way out of your Religion. Lots of prayers, much Bible discernment against Mormon Doctrine, but in the end it was God Who showed me the way out of the LDS Church.

You see, I too once employed the same denials, weak excuses, and made a lot of the same claims that people who disagreed were supposedly all anti-Mormon and were supposedly influenced by all those who were set out to persecute the "supposed One, True Church" It really didn't matter how much solid evidence was presented by those critics--the bottom line was I had to keep my testimony intact as to Joseph Smith and the True Church he supposedly restored the True Gospel in. I essentially developed these "scales" over my eyes that Absolute Truth could not penetrate. I find that most avid Believers in the LDS Church have similar coverings over their eyes, which only God can intervene to remove.

Certainly being a little older in my life [62], I certainly don't want to get to Heaven and find that I got lost on the wrong path in my life. That as I seek to know Christ better in my life, that "wrong path" represented at one time trying to foolishly preserve what I thought was such a Blessed testimony in the supposed One True Church. That even as that church had Christ's name on the building, it really did teach of another Christ, which He certainly warns us of following.

Am praying for you and the scales over your eyes.

 

[proveallthings]

It is also a very sad thing when people claiming to be Christian would stoop so low as to accuse other people claiming to be Christian of such horrible deeds without first checking out the other side of the story.

Well, the facts of the case in which I posted are well establised and if there is conflicting data, you could have posted that.

There are so few actual facts that are well established, all I need to do is remind you of them to show how much imagination is required to come to the conclusions you want us to agree with you on.

The following are all the actual facts that I can come up with related to this case:
A black man was brutally murdered in Salt Lake City in December of 1866.
The murderers mutilated his body.
Some of the mutilations resembled temple ritualistic symbols.
A message was attached to the corpse, warning other blacks to stay away from white women.
The body was quickly burried.
The trial was short without a conviction.
Everything else in this story is unsubstantiated or fabricated.

Facts that could be related to this case, but not necessarily, are these:
Church leaders had used strong words to condemn the practice of interracial marriage.
Brigham Young had taught that it would be better for a white Latter-day Saint man to die than to mix his seed with a black woman.
Any teaching about blood atonement by church leaders always involved only voluntary compliance by the guilty party.
There is no evidence of any execution of any kind ever authorized by the church.
Enemies of the Church frequently accused the church leaders of executions related to blood atonement.

Based on what I know of the character of the leaders of the church and all they taught and the attitude of the enemies of the church at this time, my first assumption would be that some of these enemies did it all to mock temple symbols and/or implicate church leaders, while satisfying their own racial hostilities at the same time. My second choice of possibilities would be that it was done by missguided unorthodox Mormons who may have used misunderstood teachings of the church to justify acting out evil desires and fears in their hearts. It is also important to remember that this was the wild west. And if you have read any history of the wild west, you know it was very wild indeed compared to our society today.

The practice of blood atonement is written in the doctrines and records of this group, and cannot be denied.

What was taught by church leaders about blood atonement can only be connected to the story you provided by the use of an overactive, conspiracy theorist imagination. I have read the different accounts of this incident and have found that, because of lack of actual evidence, all of the ideas of why this murder took place is pure speculation.

As far as the excuse that other people do evil things in the name of God, will not get anyone out of the judgment of God, when He rewards these people for their many evil deeds.

I was not excusing anything. There is nothing to excuse. The perpetrators of the brutal murder of this man will have to answer to God and rest assured, such a task will involve much more suffering than anything suffered by their poor victim. We don’t even know if these murderers did this in the name of God, so why do you bring it up?

If warning other Christians about evil men and false cults is to be counted as wrong by you? Then I am glad we have two very different understandings of what it means to honor God and serve His people.

Saul, who became Paul was also convinced he was warning people in his "true faith" of the evils of what he believed to be a cult of evil Christ followers. You are jumping to conclusions without giving the other side an equal chance. I have no doubt of your sincerity, any more than I doubt Saul’s sincerity. Such misguided and unprincipled sincerity, however, is still sad.

 

[proveallthings]

proveallthings,

I want to thank you here for basically reminding me of what a huge Miracle it was when God brought me out of the Mormon Church. It certainly was not my Wisdom, but rather God who showed me the way out of your Religion. Lots of prayers, much Bible discernment against Mormon Doctrine, but in the end it was God Who showed me the way out of the LDS Church.

You see, I too once employed the same denials, weak excuses, and made a lot of the same claims that people who disagreed were supposedly all anti-Mormon and were supposedly influenced by all those who were set out to persecute the "supposed One, True Church" It really didn't matter how much solid evidence was presented by those critics--the bottom line was I had to keep my testimony intact as to Joseph Smith and the True Church he supposedly restored the True Gospel in. I essentially developed these "scales" over my eyes that Absolute Truth could not penetrate. I find that most avid Believers in the LDS Church have similar coverings over their eyes, which only God can intervene to remove.

Certainly being a little older in my life [62], I certainly don't want to get to Heaven and find that I got lost on the wrong path in my life. That as I seek to know Christ better in my life, that "wrong path" represented at one time trying to foolishly preserve what I thought was such a Blessed testimony in the supposed One True Church. That even as that church had Christ's name on the building, it really did teach of another Christ, which He certainly warns us of following.

Am praying for you and the scales over your eyes.

I really do appreciate your concern for my welfare. I can use all the prayers I can get. But is this all you can do to answer my response in post #57 to your last post. How disappointing. I answered every one of your ideas point by point. I was really looking forward to a similar response from you. Are you not able to do the same?

 

[George Muller]

]Brigham Young had taught that it would be better for a white Latter-day Saint man to die than to mix his seed with a black woman.
Any teaching about blood atonement by church leaders always involved only voluntary compliance by the guilty party.
There is no evidence of any execution of any kind ever authorized by the church.

I think this is clear evidence, these men who claimed to speak for God had evil hearts. They desired all the woman they could get there hands on and would justify murder if it suited there purpose.

And Paul we know was of God, these men we know reject the gospel.

 

[George Muller]

proveallthings,

I want to thank you here for basically reminding me of what a huge Miracle it was when God brought me out of the Mormon Church. It certainly was not my Wisdom, but rather God who showed me the way out of your Religion. Lots of prayers, much Bible discernment against Mormon Doctrine, but in the end it was God Who showed me the way out of the LDS Church.

You see, I too once employed the same denials, weak excuses, and made a lot of the same claims that people who disagreed were supposedly all anti-Mormon and were supposedly influenced by all those who were set out to persecute the "supposed One, True Church" It really didn't matter how much solid evidence was presented by those critics--the bottom line was I had to keep my testimony intact as to Joseph Smith and the True Church he supposedly restored the True Gospel in. I essentially developed these "scales" over my eyes that Absolute Truth could not penetrate. I find that most avid Believers in the LDS Church have similar coverings over their eyes, which only God can intervene to remove.

Certainly being a little older in my life [62], I certainly don't want to get to Heaven and find that I got lost on the wrong path in my life. That as I seek to know Christ better in my life, that "wrong path" represented at one time trying to foolishly preserve what I thought was such a Blessed testimony in the supposed One True Church. That even as that church had Christ's name on the building, it really did teach of another Christ, which He certainly warns us of following.

Am praying for you and the scales over your eyes.

I really do appreciate your concern for my welfare. I can use all the prayers I can get. But is this all you can do to answer my response in post #57 to your last post. How disappointing. I answered every one of your ideas point by point. I was really looking forward to a similar response from you. Are you not able to do the same?

I think all who read his post, can see the clear point. Now it is clear you disagree, and reject his conversion to Christ but it is not a pointless expression of emotions, it is a plea for your soul.

 

[By Grace]

What was taught by church leaders about blood atonement can only be connected to the story you provided by the use of an overactive, conspiracy theorist imagination. I have read the different accounts of this incident and have found that, because of lack of actual evidence, all of the ideas of why this murder took place is pure speculation.

There is also a man down the street who tried to exhibit the endowments to a party who was here. You will see what becomes of that man. Do not touch him. He has forfeited every right and title to eternal life; but let him alone, and you will see by and by what will become of him. His heart will ache, and so will the heart of every apostate that fights against Zion; they will destroy themselves. It is a mistaken idea that God destroys people, or that the Saints wish to destroy them. It is not so. The seeds of sin which are in them are sufficient to accomplish their destruction.
​

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:262 (12 August 1866).

We believe in "blood atonement" by the sacrifice of the Savior, also that which is declared in Genesis 9:6http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/9.6?lang=eng#6. A capital sin committed by a man who has entered into the everlasting covenant merits capital punishment, which is the only atonement he can offer. But the penalty must be executed by an officer legally appointed under the law of the land.
​

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Blood_atonement

Reality can sometimes bite one's rear in that it debunks the assertions of posters who falsely claim that a doctrine is not a part of the LSD church

 

[proveallthings]

What was taught by church leaders about blood atonement can only be connected to the story you provided by the use of an overactive, conspiracy theorist imagination. I have read the different accounts of this incident and have found that, because of lack of actual evidence, all of the ideas of why this murder took place is pure speculation.

There is also a man down the street who tried to exhibit the endowments to a party who was here. You will see what becomes of that man. Do not touch him. He has forfeited every right and title to eternal life; but let him alone, and you will see by and by what will become of him. His heart will ache, and so will the heart of every apostate that fights against Zion; they will destroy themselves. It is a mistaken idea that God destroys people, or that the Saints wish to destroy them. It is not so. The seeds of sin which are in them are sufficient to accomplish their destruction.
​

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:262 (12 August 1866).

We believe in "blood atonement" by the sacrifice of the Savior, also that which is declared in Genesis 9:6http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/9.6?lang=eng#6. A capital sin committed by a man who has entered into the everlasting covenant merits capital punishment, which is the only atonement he can offer. But the penalty must be executed by an officer legally appointed under the law of the land.
​

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Blood_atonement

Reality can sometimes bite one's rear in that it debunks the assertions of posters who falsely claim that a doctrine is not a part of the LSD church

Thanks for finding these quotes. They get us a little closer to the spirit of the doctrine and nullify the exaggerated stories many have imagined. I have no problem with what you have quoted here. They show how this is in harmony with the Bible. The first quote here by Brigham shows that he does not believe in the enforcement of such laws. The second is a broad, general, statement that does not take the space or time to indicate that this is a very individual thing with lots of exceptions.

As I have said before, a better way for us today to understand this would be to realize those rare individuals it applies to have rejected Christ's atonement after receiving greater light. It is very unlikely that such a person in that state would be willing to give their life. I think this whole idea is to illustrate the dangerous path that smaller sins like anger and envy can lead to if taken to the extreme, rather than limiting the atonement.

 

[proveallthings]

Am praying for you and the scales over your eyes.

I really do appreciate your concern for my welfare. I can use all the prayers I can get. But is this all you can do to answer my response in post #57 to your last post. How disappointing. I answered every one of your ideas point by point. I was really looking forward to a similar response from you. Are you not able to do the same?

I think all who read his post, can see the clear point. Now it is clear you disagree, and reject his conversion to Christ but it is not a pointless expression of emotions, it is a plea for your soul.

Of course you see it that way. You believe he was saved from an evil belief system to the belief system that agrees with yours. From my perspective it is just the opposite. But the reality is that this illustrates a very shallow caring for my soul. A deeper caring for my soul would require him to make the effort to try and answer each of my points in a way that I could see my error. Stating what he did was the easy way out, which only convinces me that he has no answers.

 

[proveallthings]

]Brigham Young had taught that it would be better for a white Latter-day Saint man to die than to mix his seed with a black woman.
Any teaching about blood atonement by church leaders always involved only voluntary compliance by the guilty party.
There is no evidence of any execution of any kind ever authorized by the church.

I think this is clear evidence, these men who claimed to speak for God had evil hearts. They desired all the woman they could get there hands on and would justify murder if it suited there purpose.

Okay. I'm confused. How does this statement about what Brigham taught indicate that he was justifying committing murder? To me, anyone who could immagine such a motive from this simple statement has an issue with evil thoughts themselves. I didn't say anything about killing anyone. If a person died before doing what Brigham was warning about, the person would be better off. That is all. How many times have we used a similar expression in our language about how we would rather die than experience such and such. You are reading way to much into this.

 

[By Grace]

Thanks for finding these quotes. They get us a little closer to the spirit of the doctrine and nullify the exaggerated stories many have imagined. I have no problem with what you have quoted here. They show how this is in harmony with the Bible. The first quote here by Brigham shows that he does not believe in the enforcement of such laws. The second is a broad, general, statement that does not take the space or time to indicate that this is a very individual thing with lots of exceptions.

What I posted is NOT what the Bible says. What you believe about Genesis 9:6 has ZERO to do with atonement because that is a foreign element to the passage. I urge you to read it again, and IN CONTEXT.

 

[George Muller]

]Brigham Young had taught that it would be better for a white Latter-day Saint man to die than to mix his seed with a black woman.
Any teaching about blood atonement by church leaders always involved only voluntary compliance by the guilty party.
There is no evidence of any execution of any kind ever authorized by the church.

I think this is clear evidence, these men who claimed to speak for God had evil hearts. They desired all the woman they could get there hands on and would justify murder if it suited there purpose.

Okay. I'm confused. How does this statement about what Brigham taught indicate that he was justifying committing murder? To me, anyone who could immagine such a motive from this simple statement has an issue with evil thoughts themselves. I didn't say anything about killing anyone. If a person died before doing what Brigham was warning about, the person would be better off. That is all. How many times have we used a similar expression in our language about how we would rather die than experience such and such. You are reading way to much into this.

Well do you not see the racism and hatred in a person who would make such a statement? Then to lead others with such wicked thoughts would no doubt suggest that a black person had little or no value. Of course those who would follow such a person would see the murder of a black man, who was dating white women, as one who deseved to be killed. It would also give the cover of religion to those who killed this man, seeing the leader of their religion "prophet" or what ever he was called, held and expressed such veiws.

 

[proveallthings]

What I posted is NOT what the Bible says. What you believe about Genesis 9:6 has ZERO to do with atonement because that is a foreign element to the passage. I urge you to read it again, and IN CONTEXT.

I have, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.