The Mormon Belief of Deification

[George Muller]

What was taught by church leaders about blood atonement can only be connected to the story you provided by the use of an overactive, conspiracy theorist imagination. I have read the different accounts of this incident and have found that, because of lack of actual evidence, all of the ideas of why this murder took place is pure speculation.

There is also a man down the street who tried to exhibit the endowments to a party who was here. You will see what becomes of that man. Do not touch him. He has forfeited every right and title to eternal life; but let him alone, and you will see by and by what will become of him. His heart will ache, and so will the heart of every apostate that fights against Zion; they will destroy themselves. It is a mistaken idea that God destroys people, or that the Saints wish to destroy them. It is not so. The seeds of sin which are in them are sufficient to accomplish their destruction.
​

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:262 (12 August 1866).

We believe in "blood atonement" by the sacrifice of the Savior, also that which is declared in Genesis 9:6http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/9.6?lang=eng#6. A capital sin committed by a man who has entered into the everlasting covenant merits capital punishment, which is the only atonement he can offer. But the penalty must be executed by an officer legally appointed under the law of the land.
​

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Blood_atonement

Reality can sometimes bite one's rear in that it debunks the assertions of posters who falsely claim that a doctrine is not a part of the LSD church

This is the heart of this religion, born from the sexual lust and desires of men who in no way show the character of Christ Jesus.

1. Joseph Smith's "First Vision" accounts contradict each other, and his own mother and brothers never heard of him seeing God and Jesus in 1820! Their own biographies of Joseph make no mention of him seeing any visions at all until seeing the Angel Moroni in 1823.
2. Joseph Smith always publicly condemned polygamy (calling it "a false and damnable doctrine"), and denied he was a polygamist. But secretly he married his own foster-daughters; the Lawrence sisters, Maria and Sarah, ages 16 and 14. He secretly married women already married to other men; without the knowledge of their husbands. When a "wife" got pregnant he quickly married them off to another man. Joseph Smith did NOT practice what he preached! He married at least two sets of mothers and their own daughters. The LORD said to Moses: "And if a man take a wife and her mother it is wickedness..." (Lev. 20:14).
3. Joseph Smith once boasted: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." (History of the Church: 6:408) Are those the words of a humble servant of Christ? A latter-day apostle of Jesus?
4. Nancy Rigdon (aged 15) and Sarah Pratt both claimed Joseph Smith tried to sexually seduce them (Sarah Pratt being married at the time to Mormon apostle Orson Pratt who was on a mission in England). Joseph gave Orson Pratt several teen "wives" as consolation.
5. Joseph Smith illegal closed down the Nauvoo Expositor newspaper after it honestly and accurately reported that he was a secret polygamist; his illegally closing down the paper and destroying the Expositor printing press in the street are the reasons that is why he was arrested in June 1844 and sent to Carthage Jail. The Nauvoo Expositor merely told the truth!
6. Far from having "no paid ministry" top Mormon leaders make excellent salaries and also receive HUGE yearly "consulting fees" from Church owned tax-exempt businesses supported by tithing. This is why Church financial records are kept secret from Members.
7. Joseph Smith "translated a portion" of the bogus Kinderhook Plates (a series of 11 small bell-shaped brass plates with jibberish written on them), manufactured on April 1st (April Fools Day) 1843 by anti-Mormons in Kinderhook Illinois who wanted to "fool" Joseph. They did! Their "snare" worked! Only a bogus prophet can translate bogus plates.
8. Joseph Smith was arrested in 1826 in Bainbridge, New York, as a "juggler" (i.e. the term then used for "con-man"); for claiming to see buried treasure in his seerstone. Joseph never denied he conned ignorant farmers out of their money by digging for treasure that didn't exist. He off-handedly dismissed his "peepstone" days as "the follies of youth".
9. Over 60 of Joseph Smith's neighbors in Palmyra, New York, people who knew Joseph Smith from birth, later swore on the Bible in affidavits that Joseph Smith was known to pretend to see buried treasure via a "peepstone" he hid in his hat. That's why they called him "Peepstone Joe". These people were Joseph Smith's childhood friends and neighbors.
10. Joseph Smith's "Book of Abraham" cannot be found in the papyrus (re- discovered in 1967 in the Chicago Museum) he said it was translated from. Egyptologists long ago concluded Joseph Smith was a fraud, based upon his "translation" of the pagan "Breathing Permit of Horus" papyrus Smith claimed was the long lost "Book of Abraham". Go to www.bookofabraham.info for a free online video about "The Book of Abraham".
11. Oliver Cowdery, friend of Joseph Smith, scribe to The Book of Mormon, one of the "Three Witnesses" of The Book of Mormon, left the Mormon Church in 1836 because he claimed to catch Joseph Smith having sex with his beautiful 16 year old nanny (Fanny Alger) in a barn in Kirkland, Ohio. Cowdery was later a counterfeiter in Michigan.
12. Brigham Young, second president of the Mormon Church, owned whiskey distilleries, a beer hall, tobacco farms, and rented out houses as brothels in Salt Lake City while he was Church president. All Mormon historians KNOW this and many will candidly confirm these 33 Facts if you ask them and they do not fear losing their Church job (and Mormon wife).
13. T.B.H. Stenhouse, a former Mormon leader and friend of Brigham Young, later wrote a book claiming Young stole hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing money from the Tithing Office each and every year. Young died one of the wealthiest men in America; 2.3 million in 1877 dollars (about 40 million today)! Did being Church President pay that well?
14. Brigham Young's former friend and bodyguard, Bill Hickman, wrote a book, Brigham's Destroying Angel, wherein he claimed that Young ordered people who got in his way murdered by "Danites" (a semi-secret band of Mormon assassins Hickman once headed).
15. About a dozen people close to Solomon Spaulding, a retired Congregationalist minister, swore in affidits that The Book of Mormon is based upon his "Manuscript Found in the Wilds of Mormon" (not to be confused with his first book called "Manuscript Found at Conneaut Creek"); a book "stolen" by Sidney Rigdon from the Patterson Printing Office in Pittsburg in 1822. Rigdon then spent 7 years reworking it into The Book of Mormon.
16. R.W. Alderman swore (on the Bible) in an 1884 affidavit that Martin Harris (financier of The Book of Mormon) told him in 1856, in Mentor, Ohio, that Sidney Rigdon wrote The Book of Mormon based upon a manuscript he stole from a printing office in Pittsburg in 1822 (i.e. Spaulding's second book: "Manuscript Found in the Wilds of Mormon").
17. Ancient America never had any oxen, nor asses, nor cows, nor sheep as The Book of Mormon claims the Nephites had (in the millions). Book of Mormon archaeology, ethnology, and biology is totally contrary to what scientists and archaeologists today know about ancient America. Horses in ancient America went extinct about 8,000 B.C.
18. Not one Nephite artifact has been recovered, and not one Nephite city has been unearthed to date, and Mormon archaeologists have searched for over 150 years!

 

[proveallthings]

]Brigham Young had taught that it would be better for a white Latter-day Saint man to die than to mix his seed with a black woman.
Any teaching about blood atonement by church leaders always involved only voluntary compliance by the guilty party.
There is no evidence of any execution of any kind ever authorized by the church.

I think this is clear evidence, these men who claimed to speak for God had evil hearts. They desired all the woman they could get there hands on and would justify murder if it suited there purpose.

Okay. I'm confused. How does this statement about what Brigham taught indicate that he was justifying committing murder? To me, anyone who could immagine such a motive from this simple statement has an issue with evil thoughts themselves. I didn't say anything about killing anyone. If a person died before doing what Brigham was warning about, the person would be better off. That is all. How many times have we used a similar expression in our language about how we would rather die than experience such and such. You are reading way to much into this.

Well do you not see the racism and hatred in a person who would make such a statement?

That is what you see, because that is what you want to see. I understand more how Brigham thought and felt about many things from much study of his life and teachings. So no, I see no hatred, only love. He was living in a time when most of the other Christian churches were much more racist in their feelings than he sounds to us. The KKK were one of the most violent persecutors of Mormons in those days because they saw them as a serious threat. As far as I know, the Mormons were one of the few, if not the only Christian church that allowed blacks to sit on the same row in the same church along with whites for services.

Brigham's harsh sounding rhetoric was very reflective of his day. He realized that mixed race marriages at that time would not be a good idea on many levels and only lead to pain, because of the beliefs of general society in that period in history and other reasons. His teachings on this were motivated by love, not hatred and his followers knew that very well.

Then to lead others with such wicked thoughts would no doubt suggest that a black person had little or no value. Of course those who would follow such a person would see the murder of a black man, who was dating white women, as one who deseved to be killed. It would also give the cover of religion to those who killed this man, seeing the leader of their religion "prophet" or what ever he was called, held and expressed such veiws.

The followers of Brigham understood him much better than you do and knew he would not tollerate such behavior. If Brigham had so much power in his theocracy, as you believe, and really believed what you are proposing, why would he want there to be a cover up in the first place? He would want everyone to know about it. Your whole premise is irrational. You need to go back and read the list of facts that are known on this case in post #70. Your statement here continues to assume things that are fabricated imaginations to be fact. Is your desire to believe that Brigham Young was an evil murderous person so strong that you find it okay to ignore all the facts?

 

[George Muller]

That is what you see, because that is what you want to see. I understand more how Brigham thought and felt about many things from much study of his life and teachings. So no, I see no hatred, only love. He was living in a time when most of the other Christian churches were much more racist in their feelings than he sounds to us.

Of course this is always the excuse for evil? look at the other guy. These are his words and they show his heart was not the heart of a man who knew Christ.
Also how many young girls did Brigham take?

Brigham Young, Joseph Smith's successor as president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, had a tremendous number of wives.
Ann Eliza Webb, after she decided to divorce Young in 1873, published an exposé entitled Wife No. 19. A later biography of Ann Eliza Young termed her The Twenty-Seventh Wife. It turns out that she was actually wife No. 52 or thereabouts.
Recent studies, including my own, have found 55 well-documented marriages. There are several debatable cases, but most readers will agree that anything over 50 is rather extravagant as far as marriage is concerned. Brigham Young was probably the most oft-married man in 19th-century America.
The sheer variety of Brigham Young's marriages makes it difficult to make sense of them. He married -- was sealed to, in Mormon parlance -- young (Clarissa Decker, 15) and old (Hannah Tapfield King, 65). He married single women and widows. Perhaps most unusually, he was sealed to his first two mothers-in-law. Perhaps most controversially, he married women who were already married, some to Mormon men in good standing.

Are you people so blind as to see the reason this religion was started? It was a sex-cult.

 

[proveallthings]

This is the heart of this religion, born from the sexual lust and desires of men who in no way show the character of Christ Jesus.

1. Joseph Smith's "First Vision" accounts contradict each other, and his own mother and brothers never heard of him seeing God and Jesus in 1820! Their own biographies of Joseph make no mention of him seeing any visions at all until seeing the Angel Moroni in 1823.
2. Joseph Smith always publicly condemned polygamy (calling it "a false and damnable doctrine"), and denied he was a polygamist. But secretly he married his own foster-daughters; the Lawrence sisters, Maria and Sarah, ages 16 and 14. He secretly married women already married to other men; without the knowledge of their husbands. When a "wife" got pregnant he quickly married them off to another man. Joseph Smith did NOT practice what he preached! He married at least two sets of mothers and their own daughters. The LORD said to Moses: "And if a man take a wife and her mother it is wickedness..." (Lev. 20:14).
3. Joseph Smith once boasted: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." (History of the Church: 6:408) Are those the words of a humble servant of Christ? A latter-day apostle of Jesus?
4. Nancy Rigdon (aged 15) and Sarah Pratt both claimed Joseph Smith tried to sexually seduce them (Sarah Pratt being married at the time to Mormon apostle Orson Pratt who was on a mission in England). Joseph gave Orson Pratt several teen "wives" as consolation.
5. Joseph Smith illegal closed down the Nauvoo Expositor newspaper after it honestly and accurately reported that he was a secret polygamist; his illegally closing down the paper and destroying the Expositor printing press in the street are the reasons that is why he was arrested in June 1844 and sent to Carthage Jail. The Nauvoo Expositor merely told the truth!
6. Far from having "no paid ministry" top Mormon leaders make excellent salaries and also receive HUGE yearly "consulting fees" from Church owned tax-exempt businesses supported by tithing. This is why Church financial records are kept secret from Members.
7. Joseph Smith "translated a portion" of the bogus Kinderhook Plates (a series of 11 small bell-shaped brass plates with jibberish written on them), manufactured on April 1st (April Fools Day) 1843 by anti-Mormons in Kinderhook Illinois who wanted to "fool" Joseph. They did! Their "snare" worked! Only a bogus prophet can translate bogus plates.
8. Joseph Smith was arrested in 1826 in Bainbridge, New York, as a "juggler" (i.e. the term then used for "con-man"); for claiming to see buried treasure in his seerstone. Joseph never denied he conned ignorant farmers out of their money by digging for treasure that didn't exist. He off-handedly dismissed his "peepstone" days as "the follies of youth".
9. Over 60 of Joseph Smith's neighbors in Palmyra, New York, people who knew Joseph Smith from birth, later swore on the Bible in affidavits that Joseph Smith was known to pretend to see buried treasure via a "peepstone" he hid in his hat. That's why they called him "Peepstone Joe". These people were Joseph Smith's childhood friends and neighbors.
10. Joseph Smith's "Book of Abraham" cannot be found in the papyrus (re- discovered in 1967 in the Chicago Museum) he said it was translated from. Egyptologists long ago concluded Joseph Smith was a fraud, based upon his "translation" of the pagan "Breathing Permit of Horus" papyrus Smith claimed was the long lost "Book of Abraham". Go to www.bookofabraham.info for a free online video about "The Book of Abraham".
11. Oliver Cowdery, friend of Joseph Smith, scribe to The Book of Mormon, one of the "Three Witnesses" of The Book of Mormon, left the Mormon Church in 1836 because he claimed to catch Joseph Smith having sex with his beautiful 16 year old nanny (Fanny Alger) in a barn in Kirkland, Ohio. Cowdery was later a counterfeiter in Michigan.
12. Brigham Young, second president of the Mormon Church, owned whiskey distilleries, a beer hall, tobacco farms, and rented out houses as brothels in Salt Lake City while he was Church president. All Mormon historians KNOW this and many will candidly confirm these 33 Facts if you ask them and they do not fear losing their Church job (and Mormon wife).
13. T.B.H. Stenhouse, a former Mormon leader and friend of Brigham Young, later wrote a book claiming Young stole hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing money from the Tithing Office each and every year. Young died one of the wealthiest men in America; 2.3 million in 1877 dollars (about 40 million today)! Did being Church President pay that well?
14. Brigham Young's former friend and bodyguard, Bill Hickman, wrote a book, Brigham's Destroying Angel, wherein he claimed that Young ordered people who got in his way murdered by "Danites" (a semi-secret band of Mormon assassins Hickman once headed).
15. About a dozen people close to Solomon Spaulding, a retired Congregationalist minister, swore in affidits that The Book of Mormon is based upon his "Manuscript Found in the Wilds of Mormon" (not to be confused with his first book called "Manuscript Found at Conneaut Creek"); a book "stolen" by Sidney Rigdon from the Patterson Printing Office in Pittsburg in 1822. Rigdon then spent 7 years reworking it into The Book of Mormon.
16. R.W. Alderman swore (on the Bible) in an 1884 affidavit that Martin Harris (financier of The Book of Mormon) told him in 1856, in Mentor, Ohio, that Sidney Rigdon wrote The Book of Mormon based upon a manuscript he stole from a printing office in Pittsburg in 1822 (i.e. Spaulding's second book: "Manuscript Found in the Wilds of Mormon").
17. Ancient America never had any oxen, nor asses, nor cows, nor sheep as The Book of Mormon claims the Nephites had (in the millions). Book of Mormon archaeology, ethnology, and biology is totally contrary to what scientists and archaeologists today know about ancient America. Horses in ancient America went extinct about 8,000 B.C.
18. Not one Nephite artifact has been recovered, and not one Nephite city has been unearthed to date, and Mormon archaeologists have searched for over 150 years!

Wow. Where do I start. First of all, this is an extreme example of completely leaving the topic of this thread, so I will not attempt to answer each of these challenges here. If you want to go to the one on one debate forum I am willing to cover these there one at a time. I understand why you would believe this stuff and I don't think you are a bad person for doing so. But you have chosen to trust in the wrong sources. When you really dig into each of these challenges you find that most are presented with a complete disregard for the 9th commandment. Most of this is very old stuff that has been debunked many times by scholars. Most of this stuff is presented in an out of context way that misleads and misrepresents what was really going on. Some of these things are just blatantly false. For now I will just refer you to fairlds.org for most of the answers to these challenges.

I really would like your take on the original question of this thread though. So go read that and make a comment pertaining to it.
Thanks for your participation.

 

[George Muller]

Wow. Where do I start. First of all, this is an extreme example of completely leaving the topic of this thread,

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

How could these men be considered "men of god" The reason satan named that angel "moron" is because he sets and laughs at those who would follow such people.

 

[proveallthings]

Are you people so blind as to see the reason this religion was started? It was a sex-cult.

I think this last question is the most important one to ponder. I have heard stuff like this all of my adult life, yet my intelectual as well as spiritual conviction continues to grow. The Mormons are one of the most well educated of all Christendom and unlike others, we get more religious with more education. So why are all these educated, intelligent people who live a Christ-centered life as well or better than other Christian groups, attracted to an organization with such an evil and perverse foundation? It just doesn't add up. Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits", not their doctrine. Why did he only say fruits and nothing of doctrine in identifying true prophets from false ones in the last days? He said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another"(John 13:35). Have you ever looked into the LDS welfare system to see how they live up to this proofing method presented by the Savior? Results don't lie. Check it out.

It would be impossible for an organization built on the foundation you suggest to produce such fruits. It just doesn't happen. That is why all Jesus told his followers to watch for were fruits. If Jesus really did re-establish his church and runs it today, as Mormons claim, wouldn't you expect to see Satan to fight with every resource he could muster to stop it? Wouldn't you expect some very slanderous and convincing challenges? You really need to give each side of this debate equal time and consideration with an open mind. You wouldn't want to end up in the same predicament as Saul of Tarsus.

But we really do need to get back to the topic of this thread, or all this effort will be deleted.

 

[proveallthings]

Wow. Where do I start. First of all, this is an extreme example of completely leaving the topic of this thread,

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

How could these men be considered "men of god" The reason satan named that angel "moron" is because he sets and laughs at those who would follow such people.

Again, you are trusting the wrong sources. When you really look into each of these charges with an open mind, giving each side equal time, you will find that none of the Mormon prophets disobeyed any of these commandments.

And this is still off topic.

 

[George Muller]

you will find that none of the Mormon prophets disobeyed any of these commandments.

Well of course they broke them; and did it in the name of god.

 

[George Muller]

Are you people so blind as to see the reason this religion was started? It was a sex-cult.

I think this last question is the most important one to ponder. I have heard stuff like this all of my adult life, yet my intelectual as well as spiritual conviction continues to grow. The Mormons are one of the most well educated of all Christendom and unlike others, we get more religious with more education. So why are all these educated, intelligent people who live a Christ-centered life as well or better than other Christian groups, attracted to an organization with such an evil and perverse foundation? It just doesn't add up. Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits", not their doctrine. Why did he only say fruits and nothing of doctrine in identifying true prophets from false ones in the last days? He said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another"(John 13:35). Have you ever looked into the LDS welfare system to see how they live up to this proofing method presented by the Savior? Results don't lie. Check it out.

It would be impossible for an organization built on the foundation you suggest to produce such fruits. It just doesn't happen. That is why all Jesus told his followers to watch for were fruits. If Jesus really did re-establish his church and runs it today, as Mormons claim, wouldn't you expect to see Satan to fight with every resource he could muster to stop it? Wouldn't you expect some very slanderous and convincing challenges? You really need to give each side of this debate equal time and consideration with an open mind. You wouldn't want to end up in the same predicament as Saul of Tarsus.

But we really do need to get back to the topic of this thread, or all this effort will be deleted.

No tree that has such wicked roots could ever produce true fruit unto God.
and I see no fruit, I see nothing that leads me to believe that any of these people are Godly, no more than the pharisee who painted tombs of religion, but was full of death within.

 

[George Muller]

you will find that none of the Mormon prophets disobeyed any of these commandments.

Well of course they broke them; and did it in the name of god.

Adulterous relationships later revised to be plural marriages

Again, from Mormon Hierarchy... In 1838 Cowdery broke a confidence and spoke to others about the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his [Joseph Smith's] and Fanny Algers". Fanny Alger was the prophet's first secret plural wife from early 1833 to mid-1836. This shows Cowdery's long standing bitterness at Smith's double-standard condemnation of Cowdery's "evils" while the prophet was at the same time in a polygamous relationship with Fanny Alger. See "Mormon Polygamy: A History", Signature Books 1985. Another excellent reference to Smith's adulterous affairs which were later "revised" to be plural marriages is in the book "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith", University of Illinois Press 1994.

 

[proveallthings]

Are you people so blind as to see the reason this religion was started? It was a sex-cult.

I think this last question is the most important one to ponder. I have heard stuff like this all of my adult life, yet my intelectual as well as spiritual conviction continues to grow. The Mormons are one of the most well educated of all Christendom and unlike others, we get more religious with more education. So why are all these educated, intelligent people who live a Christ-centered life as well or better than other Christian groups, attracted to an organization with such an evil and perverse foundation? It just doesn't add up. Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits", not their doctrine. Why did he only say fruits and nothing of doctrine in identifying true prophets from false ones in the last days? He said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another"(John 13:35). Have you ever looked into the LDS welfare system to see how they live up to this proofing method presented by the Savior? Results don't lie. Check it out.

It would be impossible for an organization built on the foundation you suggest to produce such fruits. It just doesn't happen. That is why all Jesus told his followers to watch for were fruits. If Jesus really did re-establish his church and runs it today, as Mormons claim, wouldn't you expect to see Satan to fight with every resource he could muster to stop it? Wouldn't you expect some very slanderous and convincing challenges? You really need to give each side of this debate equal time and consideration with an open mind. You wouldn't want to end up in the same predicament as Saul of Tarsus.

But we really do need to get back to the topic of this thread, or all this effort will be deleted.

No tree that has such wicked roots could ever produce true fruit unto God.
and I see no fruit, I see nothing that leads me to believe that any of these people are Godly, no more than the pharisee who painted tombs of religion, but was full of death within.

If you refuse to see the things I referred to, which are so obvious, what more can I say. You will believe what you want regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

 

[proveallthings]

you will find that none of the Mormon prophets disobeyed any of these commandments.

Well of course they broke them; and did it in the name of god.

Adulterous relationships later revised to be plural marriages

Again, from Mormon Hierarchy... In 1838 Cowdery broke a confidence and spoke to others about the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his [Joseph Smith's] and Fanny Algers". Fanny Alger was the prophet's first secret plural wife from early 1833 to mid-1836. This shows Cowdery's long standing bitterness at Smith's double-standard condemnation of Cowdery's "evils" while the prophet was at the same time in a polygamous relationship with Fanny Alger. See "Mormon Polygamy: A History", Signature Books 1985. Another excellent reference to Smith's adulterous affairs which were later "revised" to be plural marriages is in the book "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith", University of Illinois Press 1994.

And as bitter as Cowdery became, he later repented and came back to the church. Even durring his disaffection from the church he never denied his testimony of seeing the angels with Joseph Smith or seeing the gold plates. I can't think of a more convincing testimony.

These other stories are still only 170 year old out of context gossip, told with the intention of finding fault, not finding understanding.

All this slander could go on forever. Please get back to the topic of this thread. If you must discuss this stuff, start another thread.

 

[George Muller]

you will find that none of the Mormon prophets disobeyed any of these commandments.

Well of course they broke them; and did it in the name of god.

Adulterous relationships later revised to be plural marriages

Again, from Mormon Hierarchy... In 1838 Cowdery broke a confidence and spoke to others about the "dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his [Joseph Smith's] and Fanny Algers". Fanny Alger was the prophet's first secret plural wife from early 1833 to mid-1836. This shows Cowdery's long standing bitterness at Smith's double-standard condemnation of Cowdery's "evils" while the prophet was at the same time in a polygamous relationship with Fanny Alger. See "Mormon Polygamy: A History", Signature Books 1985. Another excellent reference to Smith's adulterous affairs which were later "revised" to be plural marriages is in the book "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith", University of Illinois Press 1994.

And as bitter as Cowdery became, he later repented and came back to the church. Even durring his disaffection from the church he never denied his testimony of seeing the angels with Joseph Smith or seeing the gold plates. I can't think of a more convincing testimony.

These other stories are still only 170 year old out of context gossip, told with the intention of finding fault, not finding understanding.

All this slander could go on forever. Please get back to the topic of this thread. If you must discuss this stuff, start another thread.

Well my friend, the truth about these men is well known and cannot be brushed aside. A tree with evil roots cannot bring forth good fruit. By the way, I would be glad to discuss the topic of this thread if we agree that Pauls gospel is the standard by which we judge all doctrine?

 

[proveallthings]

These other stories are still only 170 year old out of context gossip, told with the intention of finding fault, not finding understanding.

All this slander could go on forever. Please get back to the topic of this thread. If you must discuss this stuff, start another thread.

Well my friend, the truth about these men is well known and cannot be brushed aside. A tree with evil roots cannot bring forth good fruit. By the way, I would be glad to discuss the topic of this thread if we agree that Pauls gospel is the standard by which we judge all doctrine?

You are completely missing the point. Christ said we should rely on fruits, not malicious gossip to determine true prophets. You are accepting what is presented from one side of the argument blindly before considering the other side. You haven't even considered the fruits to see if your assumptions are correct. What are the fruits of this organization you have assumed is built upon the foundation of wicked perversion?

You are quite right about what fruits would be produced by such an organization you perceive the LDS church to be. In order for your perception of the church to hold up, the fruits, or the lives of the followers as a whole, must also be wicked perversion. They must be living perverse and wicked lives and promoting wicked and perverse ideals and practices in the world. But you haven't bothered to see if that is true. This is the same behavior Saul of Tarsus was guilty of until Jesus interceded with a personal visitation to help him see the error of his ways. How can you know you are not following in the footsteps of Saul, instead of Paul.

And I am curious as to why you prefer the writings of Paul to the Gospels, which are the teachings straight from the Savior's mouth. Why is Paul preferred over all other scripture?

 

[By Grace]

And I am curious as to why you prefer the writings of Paul to the Gospels, which are the teachings straight from the Savior's mouth. Why is Paul preferred over all other scripture?

Jesus is the One who saves believers.
Paul was a theologian who wrote Christian doctrine. There is no dichotomy between what Jesus taught, and what Paul wrote.

 

[George Muller]

You are completely missing the point. Christ said we should rely on fruits, not malicious gossip to determine true prophets

Do you deny these men took to themselves many woman? some as young as 14?
Sorry, this is a sex-cult. Created by a few con-men to allow them to satisfy thier desires for sex, money and power. None of these men had the nature of Christ, nor did they honor the Word of God delivered unto Chruch, through the Apostles.

 

[proveallthings]

You are completely missing the point. Christ said we should rely on fruits, not malicious gossip to determine true prophets

Do you deny these men took to themselves many woman? some as young as 14?
Sorry, this is a sex-cult. Created by a few con-men to allow them to satisfy thier desires for sex, money and power. None of these men had the nature of Christ, nor did they honor the Word of God delivered unto Chruch, through the Apostles.

If you take isolated examples from anyone's life, without considering the whole of their life, you can make them look like whatever you want them to look like. That is exactly what is going on here. Any open minded person who is willing to examine ALL the evidence can come to no other possible conclusion than that these men were NOT motivated by sex, money or power. The only way you can understand this is to give equal time to both sides of the argument.

If you have any rational bone in your body, you would have to allow for the possibility of an alternate explanation to what you have been fed, especially when you consider the fruits growing out of the lives of their followers, which is the only method recommended by Jesus for judging such things.

 

[proveallthings]

And I am curious as to why you prefer the writings of Paul to the Gospels, which are the teachings straight from the Savior's mouth. Why is Paul preferred over all other scripture?

Jesus is the One who saves believers.
Paul was a theologian who wrote Christian doctrine. There is no dichotomy between what Jesus taught, and what Paul wrote.

Well that is what I have always felt. But your statement here only emphasizes the legitimacy of my question. Why should we base our standards on the sayings of Paul rather than those of Jesus or any other apostle? Why is he singled out above any other?

 

[George Muller]

Well that is what I have always felt. But your statement here only emphasizes the legitimacy of my question. Why should we base our standards on the sayings of Paul rather than those of Jesus or any other apostle? Why is he singled out above any other?

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Because it is Gods word, written in plain and simple terms. God says all men will be judged by Pauls gospel.
Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

For it was through Paul that God made known the truth of the gospel.

Ga 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[George Muller]

If you take isolated examples from anyone's life, without considering the whole of their life, you can make them look like whatever you want them to look like.

This is not a "isolated" example and their whole lives where about having sexual relations and they even wrote it into there made up doctrines along with any other nonsense they could think of to gain power and money. We would throw these men into prison today as child molesters and perverts, not to mention con-artist.