The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[smaller]

As much as I dislike many tenets of EO and RCC orthodoxy, they DID have it right with regards to ALL SIN being a SETTLED MATTER for mankind at the cross.

Limited atonement was NEVER taught by any early church until Calvin came along.

There are many holes in Calvin doctrine on this particular matter. Calvin's form of limited atonement FORCES a RE-WRITE of many many scriptures pertaining to ALL and THE WORLD that DO NOT EXIST in the text, but are FABRICATIONS to make the DOCTRINE fit.

These WORD OF GOD FABRICATIONS are demonstrated nearly every day here by several of the proponents where they INSERT [types] of ALL MEN and the [sheep] WORLD.

These are BLATANT fouls and IMAGINATIONS that MEN MADE UP and PUT THEM from their OWN MINDS when they are FACTUALLY non-existent in GODS WORDS.

To me, that is A SIN itself, and evidence of TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The GOSPEL was COMMANDED to be carried, preached, DECLARED and delivered to the WHOLE WORLD.

GODS WORD calls ALL MANKIND to be HIS SHEEP.

There are MANY who will not hear, and THAT TOO is GODS CALL to the working of RESISTANCE that is NOT THE MAN called.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These WORDS are also CLEAR EVIDENCE that it is NOT JUST MAN ALONE making decisions. The 'god of this world' the 'prince of the power of the air, the SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE that, READ THIS PLEASE---> IS NOT MAN is also involved.

IF God ELECTS He WILL NOT REMOVE that DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT so that a man CAN believe.

Such MEN remain PAWNS and SLAVES of the DEVIL. It is NOT MANS decision to have THAT SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE removed from them.

THAT SPIRIT will NOT listen and WILL NOT obey the Gospel, but FIGHTS and RESISTS it.

You who ARE called and ELECT 'should' KNOW these things and these matters and LOVE your neighbors OUT from UNDER that SPIRIT with the SPIRIT OF GOD upon you.

That is YOUR CALL and OBLIGATION as a BELIEVER and a DISCIPLE.

IF you blame THE MAN for the SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE upon him, you are in fact partially BLIND still, yourself. You are partially SIGHTED for yourSELF, but BLIND to the FACTS of the UNbelievers. God is NOT going to DAMN you to hell for such partial BLINDNESS, but you really should know what is going on with UNbelievers, and rather than CONDEMN the man for his 'freewill' you should PRAY against THAT SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE and ASK GOD for ALL PEOPLE that you DECLARE the GOSPEL too in the HOPE that He will HEED YOUR PRAYER for them and REMOVE THAT DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT.

The Gospel becomes MUCH more interesting when YOU know these things as THAT DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT will show itself to you and to the BLIND MAN when IT is confronted with GODS LOVE, MERCY and FORGIVENESS.

HEAP THESE THINGS upon your NEIGHBORS. Pour it out by the BUCKET LOADS from your BELLY. That is GODS SPIRIT FULLY operating IN YOU.

The TIME for christian SECTARINISM has PAST.

It is time to MOVE ON to THE END of these matters.

Those who HEED THE CALL above will be ABUNDANTLY BLESSED. Those who seek SECTARIANISM will be CUT OFF by GOD HIMSELF. God can, does AND WILL put the SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE back UPON YOUR MIND if you do not HEAR. Your PRAYERS will NOT be answered. You will be a BLIND slave to 'sectarianism.'

This is where THE CHURCHES have FALLEN. You should NOT be proud of SECTARIANISMs for yourselves nor should you PROMOTE it.

Romans 11:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You have been given A VERY GREAT GIFT from our MAKER.

That GIFT IS HIS LOVE toward you and toward ALL.

If you have NOT figured out yet that the GOSPEL COMMANDS you to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF....

You are now and will continue IN BLINDNESS, even while you THINK you are walking in the light of happy days for yourself.

Severity and CUTTING OFF is going to SWEEP the houses CLEAN.

enjoy!

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[smaller]

smaller:



Thats not True, God detrmined who they are before the Foundation.

Matt 25:


33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You have already DEMONstrated right here in THIS THREAD your FRUIT:

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

You sir are A DEATH CARRIER to your BROTHERS.

You can make any SHEEP CLAIM you want.

I see YOUR FRUIT clearly plastered across your lips AND THEREBY already KNOW who you are.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

So what are you saying? Did Paul lie and didn't really have some idea who the elect were and why? I find your posts very hard to follow as you seem to always have some hidden agenda that only you know about and your thought process seems to follow it. I am afraid my puny brain just doesn't usually get the point you are making.

IF you want to bleat that you are A SHEEP, then you MUST PROVE IT.

s

 

[mlqurgw]

As much as I dislike many tenets of EO and RCC orthodoxy, they DID have it right with regards to ALL SIN being a SETTLED MATTER for mankind at the cross.

Limited atonement was NEVER taught by any early church until Calvin came along.

There are many holes in Calvin doctrine on this particular matter. Calvin's form of limited atonement FORCES a RE-WRITE of many many scriptures pertaining to ALL and THE WORLD that DO NOT EXIST in the text, but are FABRICATIONS to make the DOCTRINE fit.

These WORD OF GOD FABRICATIONS are demonstrated nearly every day here by several of the proponents where they INSERT [types] of ALL MEN and the [sheep] WORLD.

These are BLATANT fouls and IMAGINATIONS that MEN MADE UP and PUT THEM from their OWN MINDS when they are FACTUALLY non-existent in GODS WORDS.

To me, that is A SIN itself, and evidence of TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The GOSPEL was COMMANDED to be carried, preached, DECLARED and delivered to the WHOLE WORLD.

GODS WORD calls ALL MANKIND to be HIS SHEEP.

There are MANY who will not hear, and THAT TOO is GODS CALL to the working of RESISTANCE that is NOT THE MAN called.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These WORDS are also CLEAR EVIDENCE that it is NOT JUST MAN ALONE making decisions. The 'god of this world' the 'prince of the power of the air, the SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE that, READ THIS PLEASE---> IS NOT MAN is also involved.

IF God ELECTS He WILL NOT REMOVE that DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT so that a man CAN believe.

Such MEN remain PAWNS and SLAVES of the DEVIL. It is NOT MANS decision to have THAT SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE removed from them.

THAT SPIRIT will NOT listen and WILL NOT obey the Gospel, but FIGHTS and RESISTS it.

You who ARE called and ELECT 'should' KNOW these things and these matters and LOVE your neighbors OUT from UNDER that SPIRIT with the SPIRIT OF GOD upon you.

That is YOUR CALL and OBLIGATION as a BELIEVER and a DISCIPLE.

IF you blame THE MAN for the SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE upon him, you are in fact partially BLIND still, yourself. You are partially SIGHTED for yourSELF, but BLIND to the FACTS of the UNbelievers. God is NOT going to DAMN you to hell for such partial BLINDNESS, but you really should know what is going on with UNbelievers, and rather than CONDEMN the man for his 'freewill' you should PRAY against THAT SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE and ASK GOD for ALL PEOPLE that you DECLARE the GOSPEL too in the HOPE that He will HEED YOUR PRAYER for them and REMOVE THAT DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT.

The Gospel becomes MUCH more interesting when YOU know these things as THAT DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT will show itself to you and to the BLIND MAN when IT is confronted with GODS LOVE, MERCY and FORGIVENESS.

HEAP THESE THINGS upon your NEIGHBORS. Pour it out by the BUCKET LOADS from your BELLY. That is GODS SPIRIT FULLY operating IN YOU.

The TIME for christian SECTARINISM has PAST.

It is time to MOVE ON to THE END of these matters.

Those who HEED THE CALL above will be ABUNDANTLY BLESSED. Those who seek SECTARIANISM will be CUT OFF by GOD HIMSELF. God can, does AND WILL put the SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE back UPON YOUR MIND if you do not HEAR. Your PRAYERS will NOT be answered. You will be a BLIND slave to 'sectarianism.'

This is where THE CHURCHES have FALLEN. You should NOT be proud of SECTARIANISMs for yourselves nor should you PROMOTE it.

Romans 11:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You have been given A VERY GREAT GIFT from our MAKER.

That GIFT IS HIS LOVE toward you and toward ALL.

If you have NOT figured out yet that the GOSPEL COMMANDS you to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF....

You are now and will continue IN BLINDNESS, even while you THINK you are walking in the light of happy days for yourself.

Severity and CUTTING OFF is going to SWEEP the houses CLEAN.

enjoy!

smaller

You rant against sectarianism all the while being sectarian. You seem to want to destroy anyone elses boundaries while setting up your own. Very inconsistant in my humble opinion.

 

[smaller]

You rant against sectarianism all the while being sectarian.

IF you FALSELY believe that loving our neighbors as ourselves IS SECTARIAN, then may you be A HOUSE OF ONE BLINDED MAN.

You seem to want to destroy anyone elses boundaries while setting up your own. Very inconsistant in my humble opinion.

God is not now nor will HE EVER BE against loving OUR NEIBHBORS.

This is the ONLY GROUND that remains for BELIEVERS.

ALL that do not STAND THERE have proven themselves to BE BLIND.

So, you just ENJOY that place. It is dark NOW and will get DARKER.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mlqurgw]

IF you FALSELY believe that loving our neighbors as ourselves IS SECTARIAN, then may you be A HOUSE OF ONE BLINDED MAN.



God is not now nor will HE EVER BE against loving OUR NEIBHBORS.

This is the ONLY GROUND that remains for BELIEVERS.

ALL that do not STAND THERE have proven themselves to BE BLIND.

So, you just ENJOY that place. It is dark NOW and will get DARKER.

enjoy!

smaller

You just made my point. If I don't totally agree with you I am in darkness and outside the pale of belief. How sectarian of you.

 

[smaller]

You just made my point. If I don't totally agree with you I am in darkness and outside the pale of belief. How sectarian of you.

I'm sorry for you for wanting to damn me to hell for HEARING THE GOSPEL:

Romans 13:
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

For those who HEAR, this is WHAT THEY WILL DO.

IF any claims to be a believer and DOES NOT DO, they are in fact IN DARKNESS.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

You have already DEMONstrated right here in THIS THREAD your FRUIT:

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

You sir are A DEATH CARRIER to your BROTHERS.

You can make any SHEEP CLAIM you want.

I see YOUR FRUIT clearly plastered across your lips AND THEREBY already KNOW who you are.

enjoy!

smaller

Matt 25:


33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[smaller]

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Acts 7:
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

s

 

[Elijah674]

Exod.32
[30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
[31] And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
[32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Sounds little different than that of the Bibles last WARNING from God of Rev.22:18-19.

--Elijah

 

[Deavonreye]

I have a question concerning this thread:

How can god have chosen all who will "be sheep" from the beginning, yet:

Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

This verse sounds like there were people who were NOT "his people" at one time, then became so.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I have a question concerning this thread:

How can god have chosen all who will "be sheep" from the beginning, yet:

Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

This verse sounds like there were people who were NOT "his people" at one time, then became so.

I am not going to take time to explain it to you, because you show me that you cannot believe what has already been presented to you.

 

[Drew]

I have a question concerning this thread:

How can god have chosen all who will "be sheep" from the beginning, yet:

Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

This verse sounds like there were people who were NOT "his people" at one time, then became so.

Good question. I do not believe that "pre-destination of individuals to an eternal fate" is anywhere on Paul's mind in Romans 9. What Paul is saying here is that even though, in the past, membership in the family of God appeared to be limited to Jews, it is now (i.e. as of the Cross) explicitly clear that Gentiles, too, can be full members of God's family.

Paul's argument in Romans 9 is not about "personal pre-destination". It is instead Paul's argument that the disbelief of Israel is not an accident - it is, strangely, the fulfillment of the covenant promise to Israel that she will bless the nations.

Strangely, Paul argues, the "stumble" or disbelief of Israel has functioned to make salvation available to all humanity, not just Jews. Remember the Old Testament - those "who are not my people" are not those 'pre-destined to hell".

They are, of course, Gentiles. Romans 9 is a Jew-Gentile argument about how God has blessed the Gentiles through the Jews. It is not an argument about God electing some people to heaven and others to hell.

 

[Deavonreye]

I am not going to take time to explain it to you, because you show me that you cannot believe what has already been presented to you.

I'm not focusing on what you have already posted via scripture. You made good points for your side. What I am saying is that this is a case were god once had people he considered NOT "his people", but then that changed. This cannot be if god chooses everyone before creation.

 

[mondar]

I have a question concerning this thread:

How can god have chosen all who will "be sheep" from the beginning, yet:

Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

This verse sounds like there were people who were NOT "his people" at one time, then became so.

Deavonreye,
Good point. Romans 9 is an often discussed passage by some. The 4 scriptural proof texts that Paul offers in verses 25 to 29 are not studied as closely as from 1 to 24. Why do we work on 1-24 and then suddenly stop at verse 24. In verses 25 to 29 Paul is offering his "scriptural support" for his doctrine of election.

If I understand what you were saying (correct me if I am not properly representing you), you notice that many seem to outright deny election. The arminian position is election on the basis of foreseen faith. Essencially that is election by faith. There is a scriptural teaching on justification by faith, but there are no scriptures which speak of election by faith. in verses 25-29 that there is an "elect" people and a "non-elect" people.

While I do not intend to do the work of exegesis of these verses at this time, I do agree with what you said, there is an obvious group that is excluded from the God's elective grace in the verses you mention.

Romans 9:
25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.

26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.

27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:
28 for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

29 And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I'm not focusing on what you have already posted via scripture. You made good points for your side. What I am saying is that this is a case were god once had people he considered NOT "his people", but then that changed. This cannot be if god chooses everyone before creation.

Someone else can waste their time with you, you have not shown any receptivity imo.

 

[Deavonreye]

Someone else can waste their time with you, you have not shown any receptivity imo.

Curiously, one could say the same about you, to be honest. However, what I have stated shows a problem. It shows that at ONE point, there were people who were NOT "his people", in other words, not "chosen". Then they were.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

Curiously, one could say the same about you,

Thats fine.

 

[mondar]

I probably should not have spoken so fast on the previous post. I was agreeing that there are some people in Romans 9 that are not elect. I spoke before reading more of the thread. My apologies for butting in, but I guess I am not repentant for butting in, because I am going to continue.

Without going back and reading everything said, I want to make a few comments on Romans 9:27. Verse 27 is not the easiest text to work with, but let me make a few observations from the English Bible. Truly in Romans 9:25 to 29 there is a concept of people not being elect and some people being elect. As I said before, the verses are some of Paul's scriptural proof texts from the OT to prove his points made earlier in Chapter 9. Lets begin with quoting verse 27.
27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:

OBSERVATIONS
* The quote is from Isaiah 10:22. It is an ackward quote because the English does not match up. If you compare the quote with the way the English Bible reads in both Romans 9:27 and Isaiah 10:22, you will find differences. I need to study those differences and learn more about that, but it would take time and I am guessing also the use of Biblical Languages. Sorry to leave anyone hanging on this point.
* The main difference is Pauls use of the term "saved." He even stops his quote of the verse at this point. I do not see this as a problem because if you read the passage, spiritual salvation is certainly included in the Isaiah context anyway. There are several reason for this...
------ First, the text in Isaiah 10:20 says "shall no more again lean upon him that smote them, but shall lean upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth." It would be awkward for the scriptures to speak of unbelievers in this way. Unbelievers do not "lean" on Jehovah "in truth."
------- Second, the text in Isaiah 10:21 speaks of a "return." The concept of the "Return" of Israel is much more then the Jews merely come back to the land. The word "return" has a background in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. As Israel returns to the land, they return to the Lord (in Deuteronomy 30). The return to the Lord is not the work of Israel, or the Jew in that text, it is the work of God. Deuteronomy 30:6 is the key.
6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Notice the similarity of Deuteronomy 30:6 and 30:2
2 and shalt return unto Jehovah thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;
The proper conclusion drawn is that Israel will obey with all their heart and soul, when God "circumcises" their heart. So then, Israel "returns" to Jehovah when Jehovah changes their heart. Israel's repentance is then completely the work of God in their "heart." Of course this "heart" terminology is later used in the New Covenant. However, while some brothers I respect might differ on the point I am to make in my next sentence, I notice that the "return" to the Lord in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 happens at the same time as their return to the land. This would follow along with the curses and blessings articulated in Deuteronomy 27-29. This is also the pattern in Ezeliel 11 and 36 where the return to the land is conditioned on the work of God in turning their "heart of stone" into a "heart of flesh." My point here, is that the word "return" in Isaiah 20:21, 22 is not merely a national promise of Israels return to the land, but also a spiritual promise of return to Jehovah. (Not the Israel we know today that is in the land---that is an unregenerate nation!!!). So then, in my second observation, the term "return" in the context of the passage quoted by Romans 9:27 indicates a spiritual return and blessing as well as literal physical return and physical blessing. The word "return" is not a part of the quote in Romans 9:27, but certainly Pauls use of the term "salvation" in Romans 9:27 would be in keeping with the concept I am articulating.
----- The third indicator that spiritual salvation is intended in the word "remnant." The word "Remnant" is used in Isaiah 10:20, 21, and 22. The word is used in Isaiah 11:16 and several other places in Isaiah. It seems to be a common motif in that part of Isaiah. The concept of the "Remnant" in Isaiah is a perfect concept to elaborate on what Paul said in Romans 9:6, that not "all Israel" is "Israel." The remnant is the true Israel that is saved by physical deliverance and also in spiritual salvation. In 9 Paul begins with a wish to be "accursed" or "
anathema." Certainly this is opposite of his wish for Israel. In verse 4 he speak of their "adoption" ... the "Covenants" .... "the promises of God." Frequently in other passages "covenant" material is quoted because they are rich in soteriological meaning. Galatians 3:8 quotes the Abrahamic Covenant. Hebrews makes use of the New Covenant. One of the decisive phrases is in Romans 9:23
"and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, ." Can anyone say that God bestowed the "riches of his glory" and yet did not save?
So then, the concept of the "remnant" in Isaiah is being expressed in the language of Romans 9 all along, but Paul merely quotes Isaiah 10:22 as his proof text.

In conclusion, I think all 4 quotes that Paul uses in Romans 9:25-29 are OT proof texts that go back to Pauls topic sentence in 9:6. There is an Israel that will go to hell and are under the curse (Deuteronomy) of God, and an Israel that is saved spiritually (remnant), and will inherit the blessings of God (Deuteronomy also).

 

[savedbygrace57]

mondar:

I probably should not have spoken so fast on the previous post. I was agreeing that there are some people in Romans 9 that are not elect

Do you believe that Christ died for them ?