The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

This statement does not force us to conclude that we are made righteous specifically by having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. It could mean that, but it is also open to other readings.

Yes, all whom Christ's obedience shall make righteous, have had Christ's righteousness imputed to them first, thats why He causes them to be righteous.

When it says, by His obedience they shall be made righteous, the word made is the greek word:

kathistemi and means:

1. to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
2. to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

So by the obedience of one many shall be constitited righteous, to be declared rigteous.

God only declares righteous those who are righteous.

And Christ death shall cause some to be righteous experientially.

So imputed righteousness is the basis for being constituted righteous. All is from the Obedience of Christ..

 

[Drew]

Yes, all whom Christ's obedience shall make righteous, have had Christ's righteousness imputed to them first, thats why He causes them to be righteous.

Please provide a Biblical case to support the assertion that the Christian is imputed specifically with the righteousness of Christ. No one, least of all me, is denying that the Christian is ascribed (imputed) a status of righteousness. And no one, least of all me, is denying that Jesus' obedience is connected to our attaining that righteousness.

The problem is that all this can be true without the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us. So, please, present arguments as to why we are specfically imputed the righteousnes of Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

God CHOSE to send His Son to die for our sake as a man. Of course God could have chosen other ways to redeem us. As Thomas Aquinas said, "it is fitting that God would show His Love in such a manner". And that's the point. Of the options available to a free God, the death of God's only Begotten Son for our sake was most fitting in manifesting His Love.

There are many ways to show one's love for another. God chose the manner of our redemption, it was not forced upon Him.

Regards

It was the only and the best method to free us of sin and resulting death.

 

[mlqurgw]

Please provide a Biblical case to support the assertion that the Christian is imputed specifically with the righteousness of Christ. No one, least of all me, is denying that the Christian is ascribed (imputed) a status of righteousness. And no one, least of all me, is denying that Jesus' obedience is connected to our attaining that righteousness.

The problem is that all this can be true without the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us. So, please, present arguments as to why we are specfically imputed the righteousnes of Christ.

First, I think it is imperitive that you define what you mean by righteousness. Second, it would be helpful if you explained your position as justification by the imputed righteousness of Chrst is pretty well known while we have no idea where you are arguing from. Third, if it isn't the righteousness of Christ whose is it?

Now I would begin a Biblical arguement at Gen. 3:21 where a beautiful picture of imputed righteousness is found. God clothed the sinner with the skin of a sacrifice. I would probably stop at the garments of the high priest and show how that when the high priest went into the holy of holies on that great day of atonement he didn't wear the glorious robes of the high preist which were made by men but a simple linen garment which God made. I might explain how the Ark, not Noah's but perhaps I would use it as well, pictured Christ and His righteousness covering our sin. Then maybe to Jer. 23:6 where the Lord's name is Jehovak Tsidkenu, the Lord our Righteousness and then to Jer. 33:16 where the church is called The Lord our Righteousness. But I would certainly end it with 2Cor.5:21.

 

[francisdesales]

It was the only and the best method to free us of sin and resulting death.

I agree that it was the BEST method to free us of sin - if God wanted us to know the DEPTHS of His Love...


Regards

 

[Alabaster]

I agree that it was the BEST method to free us of sin - if God wanted us to know the DEPTHS of His Love...


Regards

It was the best course of action BECAUSE of the depth of His love. Period. Are you presuming that you know God's mind so well that He has told you that He had a smorgasbord of ways and means to draw men to Himself? That is only opinion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

Please provide a Biblical case to support the assertion that the Christian is imputed specifically with the righteousness of Christ.

You provide a specific case that they are not.

Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If we do not believe in the Jesus Christ, that by His obedience alone, many shalll be made righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of Holy scripture. His obedience alone, as in the obedience of ONE, shal make many to be righteous.

If we include, our Faith, our repentance, anything we do, water baptism and etc, or any act of obedience of ours, to constitute us righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of scripture and the accomplishment of His obedience unto death.

 

[francisdesales]

It was the best course of action BECAUSE of the depth of His love. Period. Are you presuming that you know God's mind so well that He has told you that He had a smorgasbord of ways and means to draw men to Himself? That is only opinion.

No, I am not presuming to know the mind of God. It doesn't require that level of knowledge to figure out that God CHOSE to become man and was not FORCED to...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

drew:



You provide a specific case that they are not.

Matthew 5:20...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Those Christ died for !

Those Christ died for , though for a time while in nature they do not realize it will never be condemned for their sins because Christ died for them 1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

rom 4:

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

When Christ died for their sins and paid in full the sin curse of all their iniquities.

And when Christ was raised again after having all our guilt laid upon His Shoulders, being raised from the dead, this made known that His death was effective.


He is now seated as their conqueror of death, and forerunner at God's Right Hand, and while He is there, He intercedes for and in behalf of all for whom He died, not for the whole Human race without exception, but for those given to Him by His Father, and His intercession for them with God is on the basis of His Shed Blood Matt 26:

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The intercession of Christ for all those He died for produces Effective intervention, ensuring that they turn to God !

Rom 8:



31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word for intercession in the greek is in the present tense, meaning that Christ is continually entreating the Father for all whom The Father gave Him to die for.

Its a travesty to even think for one second that the Intercessory of the Glorified Jesus Christ on behalf of all He died and rose again, can not but meet with a positive and successful outcome.

Thats what Isa means here Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The Prolonging of His Days speaks to His resurrection from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God, and His Making Intercession for those He died, and as a result, the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand.

If anyone Christ died for perish in their sins, then The Pleasure of the Lord did not prosper in His Hand, neither was His intercession effective in sending intervention in the Lives for whom He died and God wanted saved..

 

[Drew]

drew:

You provide a specific case that they are not.

You have a history of using this clearly invalid approach to debate.

I did not make the claim - you did. Since it is you who asserted that Jesus' righteosness is imputed to us, it is your responsibility to make the case.

Imagine if I said "pink unicorns" exist. And then you responded "please give evidence". And then I responded "You need to give evidence that they don't exist".

This is essentially what you are doing - making a claim that "X" is the case and then making the unrealistic demand that I demonstrate that "X" is not the case. This is unfair for a number of reasons, not least that it is often to prove a "negative".

Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This text does not provide any evidence at all that Jesus' own righteousness is inputed to us.

All it says is that by His actions, we are made righteous. That is not the same thing.

When a person is found "not guilty" in a court of law, the court is effectively imputing a status of "legal righteousness" to that person. Does it have to be somebody else's righteousness? Of course, not.

You need to show more than what we already agree to - that we are made righteous through Jesus. You need to make the more specific case that we are imputed His righteousness.

 

[Drew]

Third, if it isn't the righteousness of Christ whose is it?

I will address this one first, since it is easy to deal with.

It is simply not correct to assume that Mr. X needs to have some other person's righteousness ascribed, or imputed, to Mr. X in order for Mr. X to be considered righteous.

When OJ Simpson was acquitted for the two murders, the court effectively ascribed a status of righteousness to Mr. Simpson (whether that was "just" is another issues). Was Mr. Simpson "imputed" with the righteosness of some other person, such as Judge Ito?

Of course not. This idea that one cannot be declared "righteous" without someone else's righteousness being ascribed to them simply cannot be sustained.

In the Old Testament, there is no precedent at all for this kind of thing. In the Hebrew lawcourt, the "judge" simply declares the vindicated party to be "in the right". There is no need to ascribe some other person's righteousness to the acquitted party.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew:

You have a history of using this clearly invalid approach to debate.

Funny you should say that, since you approached me that way first..

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew on rom 5 19

This text does not provide any evidence at all that Jesus' own righteousness is inputed to us.

Yes it does, His obedience making one righteous gives evidence of them being righteous before God.

The word made is the greek word
kathistēmi and means:

to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

So its quite appropriate for rom 5 19 to mean and read rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made or shown to be righteous.
Its the same principle as by the disobedience of one [adam] many were made sinners. We were made sinners before we were shown to be sinners. I am going to sin because I was made a sinner in Adam, and so, I am going to do righteous because I had Christ righteousness imputed to me, just as i had Adams sin imputed to me..

We were made righteous by imputation before we were shown to be righteous. What else could be the basis of being shown to be righteous ? It cannot be our own righteousness..

I am sorry if you cannot receive this truth..That is Gods will for you.

 

[Drew]

drew:



Funny you should say that, since you approached me that way first..

Not true - you will not be able to produce any post of mine where I employed that particular approach to debating an issue.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Not true - you will not be able to produce any post of mine where I employed that particular approach to debating an issue.

All I can do is witness you the Truth, cannot make you believe it..

 

[Alabaster]

No, I am not presuming to know the mind of God. It doesn't require that level of knowledge to figure out that God CHOSE to become man and was not FORCED to...

Regards

I already said that, so we agree.

 

[Drew]

drew on rom 5 19

Yes it does, His obedience making one righteous gives evidence of them being righteous before God.

I have never denied this. There is a difference between declared "righteous" and being declared to possess the righteousness of Christ.

Its the same principle as by the disobedience of one [adam] many were made sinners. We were made sinners before we were shown to be sinners. I am going to sin because I was made a sinner in Adam, and so, I am going to do righteous because I had Christ righteousness imputed to me, just as i had Adams sin imputed to me..

While I understand this concept, there is nothing in the Romans 5 text that requires us to understand that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to the believer.

The texts says what it says - through Jesus we are made righteous. But to say that we are given Jesus' own righteousness is to go beyond what the text actually says:

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

You need to deal with this fact: it is entirely coherent to be declared righteous through what Jesus has done without having Jesus' own righteousness imputed to the person who is declared righteous.

Every day in lawcourts around the world, thousands of people are declared "righteous" - legally "in the right" - and not one of them is told "you are declared to be righteous because you are being imputed the righteous status of some other person."

Like the other poster whose name I cannot spell, you appear to assume that if you are made righteous by the actions of Jesus, you "automatically" get the righteousness of Jesus ascribed to you. If you can make a case for this, fine. But you cannot simply assume it.

 

[Drew]

All I can do is witness you the Truth, cannot make you believe it..

Code for: I cannot produce evidence for what I have said about Drew.