The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Drew]

Then Jesus blood doesn't actually do anything unless man makes it effectual by opting in.

Yes. Do you see this as a non-Biblical position? If so, why?

If His blood covers all sin then how can a just God punish sin?

I do not understand this question. Can you please clarify?

 

[Alabaster]

Then Jesus blood doesn't actually do anything unless man makes it effectual by opting in. If His blood covers all sin then how can a just God punish sin?

A just God punishes those who reject the cover. Pretty simple. He hasn't made it complicated, except that men's minds tend to complicate easy concepts.

 

[mlqurgw]

God isn't going to force his love on anyone. He isn't going to force anyone to choose Him and His gift of salvation.

Why not? What kind of love is it that allows the object of love to destroy itself when it can do something about it? What would you call a mother who stands by the side of the road while her child is in the path of an oncoming car and offers it a way of escape? She would be thrown in jail and justly so. She could have done something and didn't. That is what you describe God as doing though and you call it love.

A just God must punish sin, for the reason you mentioned, JUSTICE. God is Holy. He must punish sin. Look at Hitler, 60(?) years later and his hatred is STILL influencing the world. Sin must be punished, there's no escaping it. That is the reason Jesus paid the price so we wouldn't have to. A Christian's sin has been punished, we just didn't have to be punished for it because of the love of God. Others, nonbelievers, prefer to be punished for their own sins, and that is exactly what they will be allowed to do.

I have no disagreements with any of these statements. I only disagree with the intended meaning of them. If Jesus paid the price for the sin of all men then how can God punish the sin that Jesus paid for? That is called double jeopardy and it isn't even allowed in our human courts.

 

[mlqurgw]

A just God punishes those who reject the cover. Pretty simple. He hasn't made it complicated, except that men's minds tend to complicate easy concepts.

But if the sin is covered, which is your premise, then who uncovers it? If the blood of Jesus covers all the sin of all men it must be uncovered to be punished in them.

 

[Alabaster]

Why not? What kind of love is it that allows the object of love to destroy itself when it can do something about it? What would you call a mother who stands by the side of the road while her child is in the path of an oncoming car and offers it a way of escape? She would be thrown in jail and justly so. She could have done something and didn't. That is what you describe God as doing though and you call it love.

Jesus did do something about it. He took our punishment for sin. god doesn't want to violate our will. He wants us to choose Him.

I have no disagreements with any of these statements. I only disagree with the intended meaning of them. If Jesus paid the price for the sin of all men then how can God punish the sin that Jesus paid for? That is called double jeopardy and it isn't even allowed in our human courts.

It is only jeopardy to those who have been told they have a Saviour and they don't want Him. A just judge doesn't let an unrepentant criminal go free, does he? Why should our perfect Judge---God, do the same?

 

[mlqurgw]

Jesus did do something about it. He took our punishment for sin. god doesn't want to violate our will. He wants us to choose Him.

It is only jeopardy to those who have been told they have a Saviour and they don't want Him. A just judge doesn't let an unrepentant criminal go free, does he? Why should our perfect Judge---God, do the same?

I didn't say it was jeopardy but double jeopardy. The same crime can't be punished by the same judge twice. You are not interacting with what I am saying you are only repeating your views. Ignoring a truth doesn't make it untrue.

 

[Alabaster]

I didn't say it was jeopardy but double jeopardy. The same crime can't be punished by the same judge twice. You are not interacting with what I am saying you are only repeating your views. Ignoring a truth doesn't make it untrue.

I know what you are saying, but you seem to misapprehend what the truth really is. The offer is on the table. Either a person receives it or rejects it. People have the opportunity to be cleansed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, or to pay for their own sin. The cruelty in that is to Jesus, who will have died for nothing for those who reject Him.

In the end, He will be surrounded and worshiped forever by those who love Him and have been made righteous by His blood. What inexplicable joy there will be!

 

[mlqurgw]

I know what you are saying, but you seem to misapprehend what the truth really is. The offer is on the table. Either a person receives it or rejects it. People have the opportunity to be cleansed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, or to pay for their own sin. The cruelty in that is to Jesus, who will have died for nothing for those who reject Him.

Poor Jesus! He must be the most frustrated and pitiful being ever to exist. So God punished Jesus for the sin of those who end up in Hell and punishes the same sin again in them? That's not justice it is a travesty. Payment twice God cannot demand, first at my bleeding Surety's hand and then again at mine.

In the end, He will be surrounded and worshiped forever by those who love Him and have been made righteous by His blood. What inexplicable joy there will be!

Absolutely! For us but not for Him because of all those He was unable to save.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mlq:

Poor Jesus! He must be the most frustrated and pitiful being ever to exist. So God punished Jesus for the sin of those who end up in Hell and punishes the same sin again in them? That's not justice it is a travesty. Payment twice God cannot demand, first at my bleeding Surety's hand and then again at mine.

This damnable heresy, that Christ death did not ensure the salvation of all He died.

That philosophy flies in the face of rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Those He died for are saved by His Life..rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Alabaster]

Poor Jesus! He must be the most frustrated and pitiful being ever to exist. So God punished Jesus for the sin of those who end up in Hell and punishes the same sin again in them? That's not justice it is a travesty. Payment twice God cannot demand, first at my bleeding Surety's hand and then again at mine.

Absolutely! For us but not for Him because of all those He was unable to save.

Do you think Jesus doesn't weep for the lost? It isn't His fault that people choose Satan. We will all mourn the lost for a moment. Then God will wipe every tear from our eyes.

 

[mlqurgw]

Do you think Jesus doesn't weep for the lost? It isn't His fault that people choose Satan. We will all mourn the lost for a moment. Then God will wipe every tear from our eyes.

Please back up these statements with Scripture. No I don't think that Jesus weeps for the lost.
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

He is the King of glory and is to be worshipped not pitied. Your jesus deserves nothing but pity.

 

[francisdesales]

Please back up these statements with Scripture. No I don't think that Jesus weeps for the lost.
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

He is the King of glory and is to be worshipped not pitied. Your jesus deserves nothing but pity.

Why not? Doesn't God desire all men to be saved? Especially Jews?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together as a hen [gathers] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! Luke 13:34


Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee; O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me, no strange god shall be in thee, neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I [am] the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt; open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people did not hearken to my voice, and Israel did not love me. So I gave them up unto the hardness of their heart, [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh, if my people would hearken unto me [and] Israel would walk in my ways! I would soon subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their adversaries. Psalm 81:8-14

Of course God is to be worshipped. But we have a loving God, not a spiteful one who feels it is necessary to say "I told you so". Those are human ways. God does not desire to destroy people.

Again, when the wicked [man] leaves his wickedness that he has committed and lives according to judgment and righteousness, he shall cause his soul to live. Because he saw and left all his rebellions that he has committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. If even [now] the house of Israel should say, The way of the Lord is not straight. O house of Israel, are not my ways straight? Certainly your ways are not straight. Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each one according to his ways, said the Lord GOD. Repent and turn [yourselves] from all your iniquities, so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your iniquities by which ye have rebelled, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I do not desire the death of him that dies, said the Lord GOD. Ezek 18:27-32

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Please back up these statements with Scripture. No I don't think that Jesus weeps for the lost.
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

He is the King of glory and is to be worshipped not pitied. Your jesus deserves nothing but pity.

I have heard of and/or read credible people's accounts where they have died and come back. Those who describe meeting Jesus Himself, describe how He weeps. It is amazing and I believe it. He is indeed tenderhearted toward the lost! So should we be of we have His Spirit living in us!

No one is suggesting we pity Jesus! We should have His heart, however, and we should be tender toward the downtrodden, the poor and the lost most of all. He is coming soon for His people!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 5:18

I have been witnessing the Truth of rom 5 19 and how it teaches that Christ one act of obedience shall make many righteous.

Now we will look at what rom 5 18 states :


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now the gospel here states emphatically that by one man's act of righteousness, the free gift of Justification of life came upon all men.

Now who is this righteousness of one, what was his act of righteousness, and what did it accomplish according to rom 5 18 ?

Well the one man is the Lord Jesus Christ.

His act of righteousness was his active and passive obedience of the cross.

What did this accomplish ? It accomplishes and gives the Justification of life upon all who he lived and died for in his act of righteousness.

Now, do all without exception have justification of life ? The answer is no, so therefore, the act of righteousness by which all receive Justification of life, was not for all men without exception, hence, the doctrine of limited atonement is confirmed.

Its certain, its sure, as many as Christ performed that one act of righteousness for and behalf of, they receive the free gift of Justification of life, that includes repentance and Faith.​

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on rom 5:18



Rom 5:


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Let me explain what Paul means and what the Truth is, the One Offense of Adam, as He stood as the Covenant Head of Man, resulted in condemnation and guilt to all men that He stood for as Covenant Head; Now in like Manner, Christ one Act of Righteousness, His whole Life, both active and passive obedience, gives [ and they receive] Justification and Life to all who He stood as Covenant Head.

Now it must be understood that the giving and receiving of results for these actions of each Head are the same.

That means the condemnation was given and received by those Adam represented, it was not offered to them as a choice, and so in like manner, the Justification of life was given and received by those Christ was Covenant Head and represented, it was not offered as a choice..

The word justification is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:


the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

abjuring to be righteous, justification

So, God, because of the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ declares all whom He represented free from guilt, and abjures to be righteous.

And again, this is not something God offers for their acceptance or refusal, but its His own declaration of them because of the one act of Christ. Not because of their Faith, of their repentance, or water baptism, but solely by the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ..

And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception.

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on rom 5 18 -



Rom 5:


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Now there is another group who opposes God Truth, known as the Universalism who corrupt the Gospel Truth to teach that all without exception will be eventually saved based upon rom 5 18 !

However in this context Paul makes clear that only those receiving vs 17 Gods Gift belong to Christ, meaning those who believe through Grace..

rom 5:

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

acts 18:

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:


The words as and so tells us that Paul's aim is not that of number of each group, but as to the method or manner of either sin or righteousness being imputed because of one representative's headship to its group.

So the First All men refers to all who were in Adam, while the second All men refers to who were in Christ, and only God is responsible for the all men in both Representative Heads.

We did not will ourselves into Adam, neither do men will themselves into Christ, God chose who was to be in Adam [have physical being] in like manner, God chose who was to be in Christ eph 1:4 and have spiritual being..

All the Men chosen in Christ before the foundation, are the ones receiving the gift of righteousness and the Justification unto life..

So the universalist is in error as much as the freewiller..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Benefit from Christ obedience !

All those Christ died for, that is, obedient unto death, by His obedience, all for whom He died shall live by Faith. The scripture says, that the Just shall live by Faith.

rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

heb 10:38

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This is important, and this will show us that by Jesus Christ death alone, it effects Faith in the lives of those He gave himself for.

Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now, Paul declares in His Gospel here, that by the obedience of one [That being Christ] many shall [ a promise] be made righteous !

Now the word for righteous here is the greek word
dikaios which means:

) righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

2) innocent, faultless, guiltless

3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

a) only Christ truly

4) approved of or acceptable of God

The word is also translated Just as in rom 1:

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It can read, the righteous shall live by Faith !

Notice the word shall again ? Its a promise, the promise is, the righteous or the Just shall, no question about it, shall live by Faith.

This means unequivocal that all whom Christ became obedient for, by His one obedience, they shall be made to live by Faith. Because they shall be made righteous or just by His obedience, and the promise is the righteous or Just shall live by Faith..

So the death of Christ ensures Faith to all for whom He died. None He died for can remain a unbeliever, that would defeat the effects and promised blessings of His death..

And consequently, those never believing or having Faith, He never died for them..
​

 

[Deavonreye]

sbg, what are your feelings towards those who were created as vessels of destruction? Do you pity them? Do you not care about them? Are you sad about their ultimate demise?

 

[Alabaster]

Notice the word shall again ? Its a promise, the promise is, the righteous or the Just shall, no question about it, shall live by Faith.

This means unequivocal that all whom Christ became obedient for, by His one obedience, they shall be made to live by Faith. Because they shall be made righteous or just by His obedience, and the promise is the righteous or Just shall live by Faith..

So the death of Christ ensures Faith to all for whom He died. None He died for can remain a unbeliever, that would defeat the effects and promised blessings of His death..

And consequently, those never believing or having Faith, He never died for them..
​

Yes, the just shall live by faith. Not unbelievers, obviously.

You twist the truth. Christ's death ensures LIFE to all who have faith. Not everyone has faith.

Hebrews 11:6
And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

Revelation 21:8
“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.â€

Your universalism fall flat on its face in the light of God's word.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sbg, what are your feelings towards those who were created as vessels of destruction? Do you pity them? Do you not care about them? Are you sad about their ultimate demise?

Naturally I pity them, realizing it could have been me very easily, but spiritually no i don't pity them, because they blaspheme God..

ps 139:


19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

So now tell me deavon, what is your feelings towards God who created some as vessels of wrath ? Do you love Him ?