The native

[Dr. Gonzo]

I have a situation for my christian members. I have asked other christians this question and got different respones. When I was a christian, this was one of the main sticking points that bothered me about the faith...

So here is the situation, Imagine a native guy living in the middle of the congo. He has no concept of god, jesus, the holy ghost, redemption of sin what have you. While he does not have these notions, he lives what most christians would consider a good life considering he is a heathen. (i know that according to christian faith being good is not enough but follow along with the story, do not use that as a sticking point in your defense). Well he dies without ever hearing about the gospel of no fault of his own. He just happened to be born in the middle of the congo, and a missionary never reached him. This is the question, does the native go to heaven or hell. Or does he go somewhere in between?


When posting your answer, back them up with scripture of some sort. Since that is the medium of your faith. I am looking for scriptural interp/proof not your opinion.

 

[Atonement]

This topic has been discussed many times. Please use the search next time..

God is a Righteous God, and will judge man according to His Will. There is no sin in God, so therefore what do you believe? Will God judge a man through unrighteousness or through Justice?


BTW
Welcome to the forum

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

This topic has been discussed many times. Please use the search next time..

God is a Righteous God, and will judge man according to His Will. There is no sin in God, so therefore what do you believe? Will God judge a man through unrighteousness or through Justice?


BTW
Welcome to the forum

Excuse me, I will next time. I am just not very good at searching. First off I am not a christian so I dont beleive man will be judged. When I was a christian like I said I did not know what to believe. I would hope that god would not send a man to hell just because men failed to preach the gospel to him. But I could not wrap my head around that because it would mean there were loop holes. Thus where I am today. I know I am not christian and these are christian forums. But I hope I can let christian know a little bit about christians that they failed to keep. Christians who became disgusted with the hypocrisy they saw in the church and with some of the theology, and example being what I posted. I will always remain civil and understaning in all of my discussion because that is how I am. And thank you for the welcome.

 

[Atonement]

First off I am not a christian so I dont beleive man will be judged

Then why are you questing God???

Seriously...

But I hope I can let christian know a little bit about christians that they failed to keep

Oh here we go, tell us about your great wisdom in Christianity. But before anyone should listen, maybe we should know more about you? Give us some credit on why we should listen to you in the 1st place? Are you an author of a book? A Bible Scholar? A Bible Student? I know... Your an theologian right? Please share what wisdom you have that we fail to keep.

Christians who became disgusted with the hypocrisy they saw in the church and with some of the theology, and example being what I posted.

Well instead of losing faith in Jesus Christ, maybe you go to a Church where they teach the Word of God???

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I went to church for many years thank you.

Oh here we go, tell us about your great wisdom in Christianity. But before anyone should listen, maybe we should know more about you? Give us some credit on why we should listen to you in the 1st place? Are you an author of a book? A Bible Scholar? A Bible Student? I know... Your an theologian right? Please share what wisdom you have that we fail to keep.

Can you read. I said I was going to let christian know why I left the church. I do not claim to be a bible scholar, although I did have about 16 plus years in the church and read the bible often.

Well instead of losing faith in Jesus Christ, maybe you go to a Church where they teach the Word of God???

I went to church for many years, I lost my faith because of that. Hypocricy.
Maybe you could try and not have such a savage tone. I may be an atheist but I am still a human being. As a moderator you SHOULD conduct yourself in a responsible manner. You obviously did not read my original post because I clearly said I was an atheist in that post. I am not questioning god, I am questioning christians. i never got a satisfactory answer on this subject so I was hoping some of you guys could give me one.

 

[Atonement]

I went to church for many years thank you

Maybe that's the problem for 16yrs you went to the wrong Church, and it took 16yrs for you to catch on that you were being lied too..

Can you read

yeah backwards -- opps sdrawkcab haey

I said I was going to let christian know why I left the church.

"Test their fruits" The Lord said, I quoted what you said during my last post.. I'll quote again..

But I hope I can let christian know a little bit about christians that they failed to keep.

If your a college student and are becoming a journalist, you should learn how to write a complete sentence.. I stand corrected, wait.. I was right..

Maybe you could try and not have such a savage tone.

Oh forgive me. Yeah I like to sit by and allow new people to come here and distort the message of our Loving Father. Your right I'm being to harsh, should I lower myself down to your level?

You obviously did not read my original post because I clearly said I was an atheist in that post

Oh I read your post.. And now you expect me to go light on you.. Ohh I don't think so..

I am not questioning god, I am questioning christians. i never got a satisfactory answer on this subject so I was hoping some of you guys could give me one.

No, your questing God's Word.. You just said you don't believe god judges men???? Do you understand what your writing here?? Your jumping all over the place. Tell me how your questing Christians and not God... And don't tell me you already told me, because you have'nt.

I'll be here waiting

 

[Solo]

I have a situation for my christian members. I have asked other christians this question and got different respones. When I was a christian, this was one of the main sticking points that bothered me about the faith...

So here is the situation, Imagine a native guy living in the middle of the congo. He has no concept of god, jesus, the holy ghost, redemption of sin what have you. While he does not have these notions, he lives what most christians would consider a good life considering he is a heathen. (i know that according to christian faith being good is not enough but follow along with the story, do not use that as a sticking point in your defense). Well he dies without ever hearing about the gospel of no fault of his own. He just happened to be born in the middle of the congo, and a missionary never reached him. This is the question, does the native go to heaven or hell. Or does he go somewhere in between?


When posting your answer, back them up with scripture of some sort. Since that is the medium of your faith. I am looking for scriptural interp/proof not your opinion.

What do you believe about the Bible? Is it a useless book of fables or could it be the truth of God revealed for our guide. What church denomination did you attend for 16 years?

PS Do you know any LaGrones there in Lubbock?

 

[cyberjosh]

Imagine a native guy living in the middle of the congo. He has no concept of god,

Ah....stop right there! That is a fallacy because Romans 1:19-20 says, "That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

And yes, this has been discussed in another thread before.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi shark... 8-) I think Romans 2:14-16 go well with the verses you quoted.

14 For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,
16 in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ. (LITV)

 

[unred typo]

Hello, Dr. Gonzo. Sorry the welcome wagon seems to have lost a wheel.

Search function illiterate here too. I have been involved in this discussion before but I wouldn’t have a clue how to find it again. I don’t mind repeating myself. I think I still believe the same basic thing on that that I did months ago so this should be easy. :wink:

First, the native has the witness of the Holy Spirit and nature itself as been mentioned. God doesn’t need a man to preach that he exists Romans 1:19-20
and that we should love one another. 1 Thessalonians 4:9

Every man has the light of Christ to guide him as to what is right and wrong. John 1:9 Since all have sinned, Romans 3:23 all need their sin removed in order to have eternal life. Jesus died for every person born to the human family, Romans 5:18 whether they know it or not. Romans 10:14 So it is our responsibility to tell them the gospel, good news that a sacrifice has been given that will cover their sin. They will be judged by their deeds Romans 2:6-8 and what they did in their life following or not following the witness of Christ in their hearts Romans 2:13-16
just as every other person will be, (even those who had the words of Christ in their Bibles,) Matthew 7:24-27 according to how they judged others. Matthew 7:1-3
There is no respect of persons with God and he doesn’t care whose son you claim to be. Romans 2:10-12
Those with more knowledge will be judged according to their privileged position and those who knew less will be judged less harshly. Luke 12:47-49 Personally, I would rather be an ignorant native who loved his fellow man and lived by his conscience than a “born again,†doctrinally sound, Bible thumping theologian who thinks he doesn’t have to obey Jesus in order to be saved.

You asked for scripture so my explanation may be hard to follow, but that’s my understanding of how the Bible determines whether the native is saved or not. There are many more scriptures like these but I like my version of the ‘Romans road’ best. As you no doubt have found, just about anything can be proven using scripture, especially using confusing doctrines taught by Paul. It’s harder to twist the words in red though. It’s easier to understand than what most churches teach. Love one another and God isn't that hard to please. Micah 6:8

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

What do you believe about the Bible? Is it a useless book of fables or could it be the truth of God revealed for our guide. What church denomination did you attend for 16 years?

PS Do you know any LaGrones there in Lubbock?

I dont know any LaGrones

16 years I attended church of christ

2 years southern baptist

 

[stovebolts]

I dont know any LaGrones

16 years I attended church of christ

2 years southern baptist

Which church of Christ? Can I publiclly ask why you left?

Peace,
Jeff

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I left the church of christ for several reasons. One, their unspoken belief that only members of the church of christ are going to heaven, and that you must be baptised in the church of christ to be saved. I never understood how a denomination could claim it was the only way to god when there were so many different groups out there. Although at the time, I was still a christian. After that I started to go to a baptist church which I enjoyed much better. I left the faith not because of any one church. I just could not come to terms with christianity.

 

[Solo]

I dont know any LaGrones

16 years I attended church of christ

2 years southern baptist

I am curious as to what your thoughts are concerning the Bible? I also am interested in what you believe makes a person a Christian.

I was in the Army with a LaGrone from Lubbock that was related to the LaGrone Funeral Home bunch.

Was the Church of Christ that you belonged to the one that allowed musical instruments or not?

 

[mutzrein]

I have a situation for my christian members. I have asked other christians this question and got different respones. When I was a christian, this was one of the main sticking points that bothered me about the faith...

So here is the situation, Imagine a native guy living in the middle of the congo. He has no concept of god, jesus, the holy ghost, redemption of sin what have you. While he does not have these notions, he lives what most christians would consider a good life considering he is a heathen. (i know that according to christian faith being good is not enough but follow along with the story, do not use that as a sticking point in your defense). Well he dies without ever hearing about the gospel of no fault of his own. He just happened to be born in the middle of the congo, and a missionary never reached him. This is the question, does the native go to heaven or hell. Or does he go somewhere in between?


When posting your answer, back them up with scripture of some sort. Since that is the medium of your faith. I am looking for scriptural interp/proof not your opinion.

He doesn't go to heaven AND he doesn't go to hell. He perishes with no judgement. 'Dust to dust.' Scriptural support? John 3:16. I'm happy to debate / discuss giving further scriptural support for this position.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hello, Dr. Gonzo. Sorry the welcome wagon seems to have lost a wheel.

Precisely. Seems like you and I and the OP are the only ones who noticed that. Such Christian love is hard to find . . .

Personally, I would rather be an ignorant native who loved his fellow man and lived by his conscience than a “born again,†doctrinally sound, Bible thumping theologian who thinks he doesn’t have to obey Jesus in order to be saved.

Hoo ...I like that!

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote: He doesn't go to heaven AND he doesn't go to hell. He perishes with no judgement. 'Dust to dust.' Scriptural support? John 3:16. I'm happy to debate / discuss giving further scriptural support for this position.

Awww, Mutz. What does ‘whosoever believes in’ Christ mean? You see, this is why the words you’re saying are devoid of meaning. Believing in Christ is believing the witness of the Spirit of God who interprets the laws he writes on our hearts, making them real in our everyday lives. It’s obeying Christ because that was the message he brought from his Father and taught in the days he lived on earth. He took the laws of God and interpreted them into the real life situations people faced in that time. That’s why he has written them on our hearts and made it possible that everyone can be guided individually.

Our job is to show those who haven’t heard the Bible story that it is God himself who is speaking to them through their conscience and that he has died for their sin. Knowing this, they can understand that if they confess and forsake their sin they can live without the guilt of their wrongdoings. Those who love one another can know that God is love and not an evil entity. They can know about the place that God has promised to those that obey him. IOW, they can know the peace with God and the love of God toward them. Scriptural support? Keep reading down to
John 3:21
But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
And check out Paul’s sermon to the natives of Greece: Acts 17:16-34
22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, “Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantlyworship, him declare I unto you.â€Â

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein wrote: He doesn't go to heaven AND he doesn't go to hell. He perishes with no judgement. 'Dust to dust.' Scriptural support? John 3:16. I'm happy to debate / discuss giving further scriptural support for this position.

Awww, Mutz. What does ‘whosoever believes in’ Christ mean? You see, this is why the words you’re saying are devoid of meaning. Believing in Christ is believing the witness of the Spirit of God who interprets the laws he writes on our hearts, making them real in our everyday lives. It’s obeying Christ because that was the message he brought from his Father and taught in the days he lived on earth. He took the laws of God and interpreted them into the real life situations people faced in that time. That’s why he has written them on our hearts and made it possible that everyone can be guided individually.

Our job is to show those who haven’t heard the Bible story that it is God himself who is speaking to them through their conscience and that he has died for their sin. Knowing this, they can understand that if they confess and forsake their sin they can live without the guilt of their wrongdoings. Those who love one another can know that God is love and not an evil entity. They can know about the place that God has promised to those that obey him. IOW, they can know the peace with God and the love of God toward them. Scriptural support? Keep reading down to
John 3:21
But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
And check out Paul’s sermon to the natives of Greece: Acts 17:16-34
22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, “Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.â€Â

We seem to have a fundamental difference then as to what ‘believing’ is all about. So before we go on, may I ask for clarification.

You seem to speak of the law being written on our hearts (of all men) and the Spirit of God interpreting this law, thus enabling us to believe in Christ.

Is this what you are saying?

 

[Spirit Driven]

What we have to understand is that the Will of God is what prevails in regards to men, not the Will of man.

We have Wills and we can be Will full...... but it gets us no where, because the Will of God always prevails over the will of man.

What does the Bible actualy say.....

God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him (John 3:17).

The Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14)

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

That which is decreed by the Lord will be done (Daniel 11:36).

The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand (Isaiah 14:24).


I would say, that your Native will be ressurected to life either at the second ressurection..... or at the consumation of Gods plan when he does away with Death.

God is known for getting his way...... whatever they happen to be teaching in Church these days..... you can still trust that God will have his way, just like Daniel and Paul, and John, and Isaiah tell us from all over the Bible above.....

It has always been about Gods Will and Gods plan..... it was never about what we want wish or will.


Peace

 

[mutzrein]

Spirit Driven

With regard to goats (as in the sheep and the goats), whose will prevailed?