The native

[Spirit Driven]

Spirit Driven

With regard to goats (as in the sheep and the goats), whose will prevailed?

Ok so we have reached the stage where the Sheep are seperated from the Goats........ but and this is important in understanding about how the Will of God always prevails, where abouts are you in the time line of Gods plan ?

No where near the end.....be assured it is not the end for the Goats that......GOD..... shut up in disobedience.
Our ways are not his ways...

Peace

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I am curious as to what your thoughts are concerning the Bible? I also am interested in what you believe makes a person a Christian.

I was in the Army with a LaGrone from Lubbock that was related to the LaGrone Funeral Home bunch.

Was the Church of Christ that you belonged to the one that allowed musical instruments or not?

Well my thoughts on the bible is that it is useful fable and literature that can be used as a moral and social guide both then and now. I don't think it is the word of god. Rather, i think it was written by men who had a strong belief in their god. Men throughout the centuries have wanted to believe in something that is larger then they are. Freud described this situation as man's need to reconnect with a perfect loving father and creation figure, because the father's of men can never live up to our needed expectations as human beings.

Church of christ's differ as a whole around the southern US because there is no central authority like the one that is found in the southern baptist convention. My church did not have musical instruments. If you lived in lubbock then you probalby know about abilene. That is where I grew up. The city is based on religious hypocricy. It has the most churches per square mile in the united states, but it also has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates. Meth and substance abuse run rampit and no one is willing to admit the ugly truths of life outside of abilene. Instead they cling to the hope of their christian university on a shiny hill, as a beacon for the rest of west texas. When in reality, the only thing that they can claim would be considered sinful by most christian communities.

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote: We seem to have a fundamental difference then as to what ‘believing’ is all about. So before we go on, may I ask for clarification.
You seem to speak of the law being written on our hearts (of all men) and the Spirit of God interpreting this law, thus enabling us to believe in Christ.
Is this what you are saying?


Not exactly, Mutzrein. Read all of Romans 2, especially 14, “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.â€Â

The law is written on our hearts, giving us *something* to *believe* and *follow.* All we have to do is not suppress it and follow what God tells us to do. Why do you continue to insist it’s so blasted hard? The common people accepted his word gladly. Children understand this. It’s only hard to understand when you try to make it say something it doesn’t say.

Now what is this law written on our hearts? Simple again. Love one another. Repent when you fall short of love for one another and confess it as sin. Change your direction and do what is good and loving, and don‘t even be proud about it because God gives you this opportunity to repent even though you don‘t deserve it, out of his great mercy and love. Since God so loves and forgives us, we must love and forgive others, or he will not forgive us either. Easy enough to understand and *believe*, isn’t it?

I think the difference is what we believe the gospel is, Mutz. You have eliminated what we are supposed to believe and made our faith in Christ itself as the object of our faith. It’s as if we are to have faith that having faith in the faith alone will save us. You have it that Christ died so that if we believe that his death was, in fact, able to save us, it does. As far as our salvation goes, that’s all of it. You stop there, but the Bible doesn’t. In order to make sense of the works that Jesus and the disciples keep harping on, you make it sound like the works they preach are merely vying for better seats in glory.

Christ died so that we could be saved by following him. Without his sacrifice, we couldn’t be saved by following him. Following him does not eliminate our sin. His sacrifice does that.

If you live every day and never sin, but one day you flip out and murder your neighbor, can you be saved from punishment by living a perfect life from then on? No, your works can never undo your sin. I picked an extreme example to make it crystal clear. You can adjust it to fit any human situation, add more sin, less sin, it doesn’t matter. Every person has broken God’s law at some point. God made it crystal clear, too. Adam’s sin was such a minor infraction and his punishment so severe that from that point on, you can not do any lesser sin than his and believe that it won’t matter.

The gospel that we believe is where we differ, Mutz; what we tell that native he can trust in. I must admit, your story has more appeal. I loved it so much it took 20+ years to admit it was not true.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

... Imagine a native guy living in the middle of the congo....

This topic has been discussed many times. Please use the search next time....

Father God,
We come to you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. We ask you for the salvation of every guy living in the middle of the Congo, as well as the man, or group of people on the deserted island, and the Aborigines that lived a hundred years ago.

We thank you God of all creation that you know who these people are. Thank you for the fact that you love them and are concerned for their their well being and salvation even more than we are. Praise you God that when someone is unreachable, that you make a way where there seems to be no way, and your ways are higher than our ways.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Thank you Father for your promise in

Psalms 34:15 The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry.

and that you assure us that you are watching all things, in
Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him...

Thank you God that you are righteous, Holy, just and true. Thank you God that you know every detail of the lives of all people. You told us in
Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Father, you created all things. You know the beginning and end of time. You know the depth of the ocean. You know the tops of the mountains. You know what is beyond our reach in outer space. You know the vast universe. And you know every sparrow.

Father, you are a righteous judge. We thank you God that you judge righteously and that you do not need to be held accountable to us, but that we are accountable to you.

Now Father, I ask that you will place a burden on the hearts of those who are concerned for the salvation of others. A burden to pray for them. A burden to listen to your instructions as to what they are to do for them. And a burden to reach the people in the mission field where you have placed them. Put your words in their mouth. Create divine opportunities. Pick up your people, cleanse them from all unrighteousness, fill them with your Holy Spirit. Protect them from all attacks of the enemy. And put them in the center of your perfect will, to minister to the people that you have called them to in an office building, a factory, a jungle, an island, or the house next door.

Thank you Father, for the concern that others have expressed for the lost. Thank you Father that you know the hearts and minds of the people who have expressed such concern. I pray Lord, that you will put them where they need to be, to do the work that you have for them to do. By the power of your Holy Spirit, I pray that when we need to pray for one another, that you will call us to do so. When someone is stranded on an island, or in the depths of a jungle, that you would work a miracle for that mission field as well as for the missionary.

Father, I pray for the non-believers who love to ask questions such as this. Make it be known to them that God is God. Draw them to the cross. Let them be certain of the work that Jesus Christ did on that cross. That it was for them. Give them a burden and a concern for their own salvation.

Father, we thank you. We praise you. We give you all the glory. And we pray this in the name of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.

Amen.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Father God,
We come to you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. We ask you for the salvation of every guy living in the middle of the Congo, as well as the man, or group of people on the deserted island, and the Aborigines that lived a hundred years ago.

We thank you God of all creation that you know who these people are. Thank you for the fact that you love them and are concerned for their their well being and salvation even more than we are. Praise you God that when someone is unreachable, that you make a way where there seems to be no way, and your ways are higher than our ways.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Thank you Father for your promise in

Psalms 34:15 The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry.

and that you assure us that you are watching all things, in
Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him...

Thank you God that you are righteous, Holy, just and true. Thank you God that you know every detail of the lives of all people. You told us in
Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Father, you created all things. You know the beginning and end of time. You know the depth of the ocean. You know the tops of the mountains. You know what is beyond our reach in outer space. You know the vast universe. And you know every sparrow.

Father, you are a righteous judge. We thank you God that you judge righteously and that you do not need to be held accountable to us, but that we are accountable to you.

Now Father, I ask that you will place a burden on the hearts of those who are concerned for the salvation of others. A burden to pray for them. A burden to listen to your instructions as to what they are to do for them. And a burden to reach the people in the mission field where you have placed them. Put your words in their mouth. Create divine opportunities. Pick up your people, cleanse them from all unrighteousness, fill them with your Holy Spirit. Protect them from all attacks of the enemy. And put them in the center of your perfect will, to minister to the people that you have called them to in an office building, a factory, a jungle, an island, or the house next door.

Thank you Father, for the concern that others have expressed for the lost. Thank you Father that you know the hearts and minds of the people who have expressed such concern. I pray Lord, that you will put them where they need to be, to do the work that you have for them to do. By the power of your Holy Spirit, I pray that when we need to pray for one another, that you will call us to do so. When someone is stranded on an island, or in the depths of a jungle, that you would work a miracle for that mission field as well as for the missionary.

Father, I pray for the non-believers who love to ask questions such as this. Make it be known to them that God is God. Draw them to the cross. Let them be certain of the work that Jesus Christ did on that cross. That it was for them. Give them a burden and a concern for their own salvation.

Father, we thank you. We praise you. We give you all the glory. And we pray this in the name of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Wow I must say, nice job. I have been asking christians that for a long time. I even asked travelling group of missionaries on a college campus. They had all probably studied the bible but they could not answer me. You are the first to provide some decent passages. I will have to look them up in context of course as they are out of context right now, but they are convincing.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Wow I must say, nice job. I have been asking christians that for a long time. I even asked travelling group of missionaries on a college campus. They had all probably studied the bible but they could not answer me. You are the first to provide some decent passages. I will have to look them up in context of course as they are out of context right now, but they are convincing.

May God add His blessing to your study of His word!

 

[mutzrein]

The gospel that we believe is where we differ, Mutz; what we tell that native he can trust in. I must admit, your story has more appeal. I loved it so much it took 20+ years to admit it was not true.

Actually I was brought up to believe the way you do now. And as regards your last point, yes, I agree, the gospel we believe in is where we differ. And the point that you make is interesting from this perspective: I held to your point of view for 20+ years but for the last 20+ years it has been the grace of God and the love of Christ my saviour which has changed everything.

Some years ago, my father - a very gracious and godly man - and I were having a very similar debate by long distance phone call & letter. We live hundreds of miles apart. He was as firmly convinced as any man I know that all men are judged – that all will be sent to either heaven or hell. We entered into very intense discussion about it – something I was not particularly keen to do with him, so I said to him, “I would like you to write to me and to state your case in writing. And I would like you to support your belief with scripture,†“And,†I added – blurting it out with no forethought of issuing such a challenge, “with the very scripture you use, I will show you that not all are judged.â€Â
Nevertheless after making the challenge I felt confident that I would indeed be able to answer him as I said, as it was not something I contrived to do. Since God had placed a premise of understanding of the gospel within my heart I was then and am now more than ever firmly convinced of it.

When his reply was received he quoted Romans 2, virtually the whole thing while underlining the passages that he wanted to emphasise which talked about judgement. Actually it is not unlike many - even on this forum who hold to a particular premise and quote it as though everyone else should have the same premise. Of course quoting scripture is one thing but taking it out of context is something else.

So, this is my response – not verbatim in its entirety as written to my father, but also bringing the passage into context for the sake of other readers. In fact I have posted much of it elsewhere in another forum.

Now to put something in context I ask myself, who is being addressed and what is it that relates to them and what relates to others. Of course we know that (the book of) Romans was written to Roman (Gentile) believers. The former part of chapter 2 is warning them not to judge others. Paul then goes on to say, "because of your stubborn and unrepentant hearts, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Gods wrath . . ." Now clearly, this is speaking in a personal way to the church. It is to those who by virtue of their calling by God, already have a relationship with Him. And since they have this relationship, Paul goes to great lengths to explain to them that they will be judged for their actions.

He then goes on to broaden the scope to include every human being, both to those who do evil and to those who do good. And directly after this comes the key, because then Paul states emphatically what will happen to mankind.

From verse 12, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles - because they are outside of the law.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They will perish.

Going on, "and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: The Jews - Gods own people because they were entrusted with the law.
Question: And what will happen to them? Answer: They will be judged.

Going on again, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Now here Paul make an amazing transition between those who have been given the law (the Jews), and those by virtue of their faith in God are declared righteous (this includes both Jew and Gentile.) And then Paul explains this further as he focuses on the Gentiles saying, "Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They also will be judged as the next verse avows, "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my Gospel declares."

So summing this up:

Gentiles who sin apart from the law perish apart from the law. And let’s not forget why the law was given to Gods people. If it was not given to the Gentiles then they (the Gentiles) perish outside of it. That means they are not judged by it.

Jews who sin under the law are judged by the Law.

Jews & Gentiles who obey the law, (not because they follow the written code but since the law is written on their hearts) are declared righteous. And since it is written on their hearts their consciences accuse and defend them. And who knows the heart of man but God alone - he will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

I left the church of christ for several reasons. One, their unspoken belief that only members of the church of christ are going to heaven, and that you must be baptised in the church of christ to be saved. I never understood how a denomination could claim it was the only way to god when there were so many different groups out there. Although at the time, I was still a christian. After that I started to go to a baptist church which I enjoyed much better. I left the faith not because of any one church. I just could not come to terms with christianity.

Dr. Gonzo,
I understand where you’re coming from. Let me address what I am able to address.
As far as this, “Unspoken belief that only members of the Church of Christ are going to heavenâ€Â
Yes, only those in the Church of Christ will go to heaven according to my understanding of scripture. Although Spirit Driven will disagree with me, those outside the True Church, await a different fate.
Now, if you want to define who is “IN†the Church of Christ, then we truly need to break out of the box and not limit God to a denomination… this includes the church of Christ, or how you pronounce it, Church of christ. (Notice capitalization)

As far as baptism… yes, I know exactly what your speaking about. Let me post this quote from John Mark Hicks, professor of Theology at Lipscomb. (I’m sure you’ve heard of Lipscomb)

http://johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/cont ... ?CID=53318

Baptism is more important than you think, but not for the reasons you suppose.

Many believe baptism is simply the sign of salvation already received. Others believe it is an indispensable command that legally divides those heading to heaven from those going to hell. Baptism is more important than either think.

Baptism is a performative, or effectual, sign through which God works by his Holy Spirit to forgive, renew, sanctify and transform. It is a symbol by which we participate in the reality that it symbolizes. We must not reduce it to a mere symbol or sign that only looks to the past without any present power or reality. Baptism is more important than that.

Neither is baptism, however, the technical line between heaven and hell. It is not primarily a loyalty test or a command satisfied by legal performance of the rite. We must not reduce baptism to a line in the sand. Such a reading of baptism’s function reduces its significance to a technical legal requirement. Baptism is more important than that.

As a matter of fact, Campbell never intended Baptism to be a dividing line in the sand (heaven and hell) and struggled with the exact same questions that you started this thread with… However, he never had a chance to complete his work in that area. At that time, the Baptist had ‘watered’ down baptism so badly, Campbell’s main focus was to revive the meaning and significance of baptism. It was never Campbell’s intent to have baptism as a dividing line and he never stated that anyone outside of the restoration was going to hell either...

Let me leave you with this. Christianity encompasses both a personal relationship with Christ and the relationship with the communities within Christ. Each community makes up a part of the whole of Christ’s Church and none have obtained utter perfection. The way I currently see it is this way. Don’t let a few bad apples within the community we call religious Christianity detour you from the work that Christ has in store for you. In my opinion, your salvation, and the light that you can be for others is more important than what congregation you attend. The fact that you are concerned with the fate of those that have never heard the gospel shows me that you are a compassionate man.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you think that Jesus died just so you could be in heaven with Him? If that’s the case, why do we have to spend time here on earth? May I suggest that it’s to honor and glorify His name? How do we do that? I believe the best way we do that, is when we help those in need. When we reject those in need, we reject Christ.

Matthew 25:35-36 For I was hungry, and you gave me food: (Matthew 4:4) I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: (John 4:11) I was a stranger, and you took me in: (Luke 10:33)Naked, and you clothed me: (Matthew 6:28-29) I was sick, and you visited me: (Mark 2:18) I was in prison, and you came unto me.(Romans 7:15)
Leviticus 23:22 And when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not completely reap the corners of your field when you reap, neither shall you gather any gleaning of your harvest: you shall leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote:Actually I was brought up to believe the way you do now. And as regards your last point, yes, I agree, the gospel we believe in is where we differ. And the point that you make is interesting from this perspective: I held to your point of view for 20+ years but for the last 20+ years it has been the grace of God and the love of Christ my saviour which has changed everything.

Well, I read your entire story for the second time, once in the other thread, and I don’t see how you figure you have addressed my point by re-quoting it here in answer to how our gospels differ when we speak to the native. I was not referring to who was ‘being judged’ and who is ‘just perishing’ as much as I was saying that the native who believes Christ and follows the law written in his heart is as saved as the Bible scholar who understands that in order to believe Christ, you have to trust what he said to do, and do it, not just believe what he did for us.

I didn’t mention my believing as you do for 20+ years in order to boast that I’ve been there, done that, threw out the tee shirt. I wanted to show how blindly appealing the concept is. Obviously, you held to the truth for quite a while before you gave it up for the ‘no-works’ enticement. It is a very subtle and alluring idea that can be packed with tons of out-of-context scripture. A masterpiece of sorts.

I was quite a master at presenting it and reinterpreting every verse to be filtered through it’s grace sieve, to make sure no works got through to sully up my ‘pride-destroying’ gospel. Then, one day the Spirit of God said, “Why are you doing that?†I began to see I had been changing the meaning of the gospel to actually deny what the Lord taught. When I ran to my ‘not-of-works-lest-any-man-should boast’ verse for cover, the Lord just showed me that if I gave every moment of every day serving him, every penny of my money, even my first born child, I still couldn’t boast that I provided my own salvation. Without the blood covering my sin, I was still lost. So it is the blood that saves me, not my works but if I don’t follow the path of salvation that Jesus taught, I am not saved either. Unless I love and humbly forgive as he did, I am not ‘in Christ’. If the native, who doesn’t even know the name of his Savior, loves and forgives his fellow man by following the laws written in his heart, he is saved. The blood will cover his sin by the faith he has in what he knows of the truth. All will be judged by their works, Mutz.

You quote much of chapter 2 of Romans but you slid by these verses:
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, (notice what they receive) eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (notice what they receive) indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.



Mutzrein wrote: Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.

I see you have clarified what the Holy Spirit has forgotten to mention. Silly of him, not to make that clear these are ‘born again’ believers, versus those not ‘born again.’ Funny how it says these are ‘those who obey’ versus ‘those who disobey’ in the previous verses. The problem I see here is ‘those who obey’ happen to be the same ones that God chooses to make ‘born again’, so you could be chasing your tail all through scripture, Mutz. It’s a sad state of affairs. It could keep you busy for another 20+ years.
:o

 

[Solo]

As a matter of fact, Campbell never intended Baptism to be a dividing line in the sand (heaven and hell) and struggled with the exact same questions that you started this thread with… However, he never had a chance to complete his work in that area. At that time, the Baptist had ‘watered’ down baptism so badly, Campbell’s main focus was to revive the meaning and significance of baptism. It was never Campbell’s intent to have baptism as a dividing line and he never stated that anyone outside of the restoration was going to hell either...

Let me leave you with this. Christianity encompasses both a personal relationship with Christ and the relationship with the communities within Christ. Each community makes up a part of the whole of Christ’s Church and none have obtained utter perfection. The way I currently see it is this way. Don’t let a few bad apples within the community we call religious Christianity detour you from the work that Christ has in store for you. In my opinion, your salvation, and the light that you can be for others is more important than what congregation you attend. The fact that you are concerned with the fate of those that have never heard the gospel shows me that you are a compassionate man.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you think that Jesus died just so you could be in heaven with Him? If that’s the case, why do we have to spend time here on earth? May I suggest that it’s to honor and glorify His name? How do we do that? I believe the best way we do that, is when we help those in need. When we reject those in need, we reject Christ.

Matthew 25:35-36 For I was hungry, and you gave me food: (Matthew 4:4) I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: (John 4:11) I was a stranger, and you took me in: (Luke 10:33)Naked, and you clothed me: (Matthew 6:28-29) I was sick, and you visited me: (Mark 2:18) I was in prison, and you came unto me.(Romans 7:15)
Leviticus 23:22 And when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not completely reap the corners of your field when you reap, neither shall you gather any gleaning of your harvest: you shall leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

What are your thoughts on infant baptism?

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote: What are your thoughts on infant baptism?

Is that a native infant or are you wandering off topic here? I don’t think natives who have no contact with the ritually religious even baptize adults who believe the law written in their hearts, do you?

So I would say it’s not essential to salvation, one way or another. Baptism is what you do to show others what you believe is happening to you spiritually, being washed of your sin in the blood as you confess and forsake it. Since neither babies nor ritually deprived natives can know this, they are not expected to comply with the command, imho.

 

[Solo]

Solo wrote: What are your thoughts on infant baptism?

Is that a native infant or are you wandering off topic here? I don’t think natives who have no contact with the ritually religious even baptize adults who believe the law written in their hearts, do you?

So I would say it’s not essential to salvation, one way or another. Baptism is what you do to show others what you believe is happening to you spiritually, being washed of your sin in the blood as you confess and forsake it. Since neither babies nor ritually deprived natives can know this, they are not expected to comply with the command, imho.

StoveBolts posted his thoughts on baptism to Dr. Gonzo, and I was asking StoveBolts what his thoughts were in relation to Infant Baptism.

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote: StoveBolts posted his thoughts on baptism to Dr. Gonzo, and I was asking StoveBolts what his thoughts were in relation to Infant Baptism.

No problem, Solo, it’s not my thread and I’m not a self proclaimed monitor, and I’m usually as guilty of going off topic as anyone. I just saw a way to bring you back to the fold here and subject our poor ignorant native to this question as well. So, whadya think? Is it true that since neither babies nor ritually deprived natives can know this, they are not expected to comply with the command?

 

[Solo]

Solo wrote: StoveBolts posted his thoughts on baptism to Dr. Gonzo, and I was asking StoveBolts what his thoughts were in relation to Infant Baptism.

No problem, Solo, it’s not my thread and I’m not a self proclaimed monitor, and I’m usually as guilty of going off topic as anyone. I just saw a way to bring you back to the fold here and subject our poor ignorant native to this question as well. So, whadya think? Is it true that since neither babies nor ritually deprived natives can know this, they are not expected to comply with the command?

I believe that water baptism comes after salvation and that it is the first command of obedience to follow. I believe that natives that never hear the gospel have an inate knowledge of God almighty and can know him through the creation, so there is not excuse. I also do not think that anyone knows for sure, but my stand is that whatever God deems is right, is right. If God deems that all natives go to hell, then it is right that all natives go to hell. God is the creator of all natives and it is up to him to do what he wants with them. The same goes for all creation and not just natives. In households there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and the potter can do as he wishes with his pottery. God's righteousness, and the faith that he has given me, give me the assurance that all that occurs contains all of His love, mercy, grace, justice, etc. etc. etc.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Solo,
Well, I figure I owe you an answer, so… here’s a snipit.

Baptism is not a work that you or I perform. It is the work of Christ saturated in grace through the instrument of faith. (And now I’ll go out on a limb as I’m sure most will disagree, even among my own congregation). Now, grace normally (but not always) works through the instrument of faith. There are two examples that we can use where grace is received through the requesters faith. Both examples come from Luke 8.

The first example is when the woman who was bleeding for several years touched Jesus and he felt power go out of him. What were His words? “Your faith has made you wholeâ€Â. Clearly, it was God’s grace that healed her, but it worked through the woman’s faith.
The second example that I’ll use is the example where Jairus came to Jesus because his daughter was dieing. In fact, Jairus’s daughter did die but what did Jesus say? He said, “Fear not, and only believe†and Jesus raised the man’s daughter from the dead. Again, it was God’s grace that brought the daughter back to life, but it was the father’s belief that God’s grace was manifested. If either had lacked in faith, their efforts would have ended in vain. Simply put, their faith wasn’t focused inward; it was focused outward in hope.

So, the way I see it, if a person is taught that their child must be baptized as an infant and they obey out of obedience to their understanding of scripture, then may God bless them for caring for their child’s eternal resting place. Surely God’s grace will work through the faith of the parents and if one believes that one must be baptized to go to heaven, then allow that person the comfort of knowing that they did what they could do for their child.

But personally, I believe that when one accepts the word of God in his heart, repents and as an act of faith in obedience is baptized, I believe that God’s grace is poured out on the person instantly and the receiver is given, as promised the gift of the Holy Spirit as he is forgiven from all his sins.

As far as the Natives go, I believe it was Gabby that had the right idea… our prayers to God is where our hope should be focused. Through our faith, God’s grace is capable of miracles.

 

[Solo]

Hello Solo,
Well, I figure I owe you an answer, so… here’s a snipit.

Baptism is not a work that you or I perform. It is the work of Christ saturated in grace through the instrument of faith. (And now I’ll go out on a limb as I’m sure most will disagree, even among my own congregation). Now, grace normally (but not always) works through the instrument of faith. There are two examples that we can use where grace is received through the requesters faith. Both examples come from Luke 8.

The first example is when the woman who was bleeding for several years touched Jesus and he felt power go out of him. What were His words? “Your faith has made you wholeâ€Â. Clearly, it was God’s grace that healed her, but it worked through the woman’s faith.
The second example that I’ll use is the example where Jairus came to Jesus because his daughter was dieing. In fact, Jairus’s daughter did die but what did Jesus say? He said, “Fear not, and only believe†and Jesus raised the man’s daughter from the dead. Again, it was God’s grace that brought the daughter back to life, but it was the father’s belief that God’s grace was manifested. If either had lacked in faith, their efforts would have ended in vain. Simply put, their faith wasn’t focused inward; it was focused outward in hope.

So, the way I see it, if a person is taught that their child must be baptized as an infant and they obey out of obedience to their understanding of scripture, then may God bless them for caring for their child’s eternal resting place. Surely God’s grace will work through the faith of the parents and if one believes that one must be baptized to go to heaven, then allow that person the comfort of knowing that they did what they could do for their child.

But personally, I believe that when one accepts the word of God in his heart, repents and as an act of faith in obedience is baptized, I believe that God’s grace is poured out on the person instantly and the receiver is given, as promised the gift of the Holy Spirit as he is forgiven from all his sins.

As far as the Natives go, I believe it was Gabby that had the right idea… our prayers to God is where our hope should be focused. Through our faith, God’s grace is capable of miracles.

And if the parents are not born again, but believe that they are in the correct faith? And when the child grows up, is the child saved from the infant baptism?

I was baptized as an infant and was not any more saved than Hitler. I was born again at 28 years old, not when I was an infant, even though I had a Godmother, and went through the frills and thrills of religiousity.

Why would we want to appease those who may be on the wide, broad path to destruction as opposed to teaching them the truth of the scriptures?

 

[stovebolts]

Why would we want to appease those who may be on the wide, broad path to destruction as opposed to teaching them the truth of the scriptures?

This is your understanding of scripture. Tell me, does one HAVE to be baptized to be saved :o

 

[Solo]

This is your understanding of scripture. Tell me, does one HAVE to be baptized to be saved :o

The scriptures show that individuals are born again prior to being baptized. If baptism saved individuals, Paul would have been more intent on baptizing folks than he was. He baptized few people. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the born again process by which believers have their spirit regenerated and the Holy Spirit takes up residency within the believer sealing him until the day of redemption. Infant baptism does nothing, and if one becomes born again after being baptized as an infant, he/she has not yet been baptized/immersed as commanded.

 

[stovebolts]

This will probably be my last post for the day cause I'm running a bit short of time.
I wanted to post this earlier, but had a hard time finding it exactly. I'd like to find another part, but it's hard to find where the bishop actually tells her to go away because with tears like her's, God would listen...

I noticed that you recently quoted St. Augustine in another thread. This is what he has to say about his mother Monica, who never stopped praying for him when he rejected the faith. There is much power in a distressed prayer.

For my mother, your faithful servant, wept for me before you more than mothers weep when lamenting their dead children. By the ‘faith and spiritual discernment’ (Gal 5:5) which she had from you, she perceived the death which held me, and you heard her, Lord. You heard her and did not despise her tears which poured forth to wet the ground under her eyes in ever place where she prayed. (Confessions 3.11.19)

 

[Solo]

This will probably be my last post for the day cause I'm running a bit short of time.
I wanted to post this earlier, but had a hard time finding it exactly. I'd like to find another part, but it's hard to find where the bishop actually tells her to go away because with tears like her's, God would listen...

I noticed that you recently quoted St. Augustine in another thread. This is what he has to say about his mother Monica, who never stopped praying for him when he rejected the faith. There is much power in a distressed prayer.

For my mother, your faithful servant, wept for me before you more than mothers weep when lamenting their dead children. By the ‘faith and spiritual discernment’ (Gal 5:5) which she had from you, she perceived the death which held me, and you heard her, Lord. You heard her and did not despise her tears which poured forth to wet the ground under her eyes in ever place where she prayed. (Confessions 3.11.19)

It is definitely important for all to pray for others, and I especially miss the prayers of my mother. She was saved at the age of 12, and was baptized at the age of 52. I was so glad to be at her baptism as I was in sorrow to be at her funeral 10 years later.

Infant baptism does not save anyone, nor does water baptism. It is only by faith in Jesus Christ by the revelation given believers by the Holy Spirit that one is born again and saved.