The native

[stovebolts]

OK, So I'll work late tonight... ;-)

Solo,
Context is key and that’s where theology separates true doctrine.

Infant baptism does not save anyone, nor does water baptism. It is only by faith in Jesus Christ by the revelation given believers by the Holy Spirit that one is born again and saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice, we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Grace works through the instrument of faith and the grace spoken of is the workmanship of God our creator. As the workmanship of God, we are created unto Good Works that we SHOULD, meaning we actually have a choice to produce the fruits ordained by God.

I’d also like to keep this verse in mind as you ponder my reply.
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest is taken from among the people (1) and appointed to represent them before God, to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 5:2 He is able to deal compassionately with those who are ignorant and erring, since he also is subject to weakness, 5:3 and for this reason he is obligated to make sin offerings for himself as well as for the people. 5:4 And no one assumes this honor on his own initiative, but only when called to it by God, as in fact Aaron was. 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming high priest, but the one who glorified him was God,

In the context of a believer in Christ, baptism does save because it is through faith, that grace is received. Baptism is not a work that you perform; it is a work of God saturated in God’s grace. What does this grace look like? It is the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins. This is our seal of redemption, our certainty of salvation. Baptism is an elementary step toward maturity for one in the faith.

In the context of an infant, to those who believe that baptism is necessary, it is their faith that brings about their children to their own salvation (just like the story in Luke 8 or Augustines mother in prayer for her beloved son). Look at your own story, somebody cared enough about you, and not only respected what was taught them, but obeyed scripture as it was taught them, and had you baptized as an infant. The fact that you discredit any authority held by your infant baptism does not negate the fact that you were baptized and as of today, profess Christ as your savior as you attempt to serve Christ with your entire heart and soul. To say that your infant baptism had no effect on you is to deny God’s grace that worked in those who had enough faith to obey what they understood. Rest assured, they believe that Christ was the savior and salvation came by no other means than God’s grace.

Personally, as a father who lost an infant, there isn’t anything worse than struggling with the question of where your child will spend eternity. (I’ve since resolved that issue)

In the context of a native in the middle of the Congo that dies before ever hearing the gospel, God is revealed in his creation (Romans 1 and 2) and through faith, God’s grace is fully in effect. (Heb 5 as ignorance means not knowing and people could have been translated as humanity, not simply the community.)

1tn Grk “from among men,†but since the point in context is shared humanity (rather than shared maleness), the plural Greek term ἀνθρώπEν (anqrwpwn) has been translated “people.â€Â

 

[Solo]

Being born again is what saves an individual, and that being born again occurs when the Holy Spirit gives a rebirth or a born from above quickening to the spirit of man. The born again experience is not a physical experience. It is a Spiritual experience. The physical man is still sold under sin and is mortal, and is corrupt; but the new creature, the new man is spiritual. The body will one day be resurrected and/or changed where the corrupt will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality.

Water baptism is an ordinance whereby we follow Jesus Christ for the first time in our walk of repentence, belief, and following him. The water doesn't purify our souls, but the Holy Spirit purifies our souls. An infant that is baptized by water is no more saved than an adult who is baptized by water. It is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit upon one who believes after the Holy Spirit opens ones eyes concerning the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. No where in scripture are infants baptized. Every instance of baptism in the scriptures are performed on individuals that have repented and believed after hearing the word of God.

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein, I did answer your last post but it got buried in the water/infant baptism discussion here. You can find it back on page 2 near the bottom.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein, I did answer your last post but it got buried in the water/infant baptism discussion here. You can find it back on page 2 near the bottom.

Thanks unred - I will go back and check what you have said in the next 20+ years :wink: I have scanned it only briefly now.

But perhaps while I think about it, if can approach this question by question - rather than deliver a lot that may seem irrelevant to either or both of us at the end of that time. Is that OK?

If so . . .

Q What is the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven?

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote: Thanks unred - I will go back and check what you have said in the next 20+ years :wink: I have scanned it only briefly now.

But perhaps while I think about it, if can approach this question by question - rather than deliver a lot that may seem irrelevant to either or both of us at the end of that time. Is that OK?

If so . . .

Q What is the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven?

Sure, answer my post with a question, Mutz. That will be fine as long as I can answer your question with another question or two. What is the kingdom of heaven? What does it mean to enter the kingdom of heaven? What does the phrase ‘as a little child’ mean?

Take your time but don't forget me. The natives are getting restless. :-D

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein wrote: Thanks unred - I will go back and check what you have said in the next 20+ years :wink: I have scanned it only briefly now.

But perhaps while I think about it, if can approach this question by question - rather than deliver a lot that may seem irrelevant to either or both of us at the end of that time. Is that OK?

If so . . .

Q What is the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven?

Sure, answer my post with a question, Mutz. That will be fine as long as I can answer your question with another question or two. What is the kingdom of heaven? What does it mean to enter the kingdom of heaven? What does the phrase ‘as a little child’ mean?

Take your time but don't forget me. The natives are getting restless. :-D

What is the kingdom of heaven? Eternal Life.

What does it mean to enter the kingdom of heaven? To receive eternal life.

What does the phrase ‘as a little child’ mean? Having implicit trust.

Your turn

 

[Atonement]

Great response mutzrein

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote: What is the kingdom of heaven? Eternal Life.
What does it mean to enter the kingdom of heaven? To receive eternal life.
What does the phrase ‘as a little child’ mean? Having implicit trust.
Your turn

OK, thank you for the clarification. I wouldn’t have thought that the kingdom of heaven was eternal life and we would have been talking passed one another for sure. I think of the kingdom of heaven as all of the realms that are subject to the reign of God. I would have been making arguments using verses that pertained to that, including
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. and Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
or Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. or verse 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Since you’re asking specifically about eternal life, I’ll go another route.

So what you’re asking is not, “What is the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven?†but “What is the criteria to receive eternal life?†although they are interchangeable apparently to you and others here.

The answer can be found the easiest in the Romans Road of chapter 2:
Rom 2 :5 But after your hardness and impenitent heart treasures up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (note what they receive: ) eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (note that they do not receive eternal life but instead: ) indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Did you get that? By patient continuance in well doing and good works and not being contentious but being obedient to the truth and righteousness, a person will receive eternal life.

 

[stovebolts]

Being born again is what saves an individual, and that being born again occurs when the Holy Spirit gives a rebirth or a born from above quickening to the spirit of man. The born again experience is not a physical experience. It is a Spiritual experience. The physical man is still sold under sin and is mortal, and is corrupt; but the new creature, the new man is spiritual. The body will one day be resurrected and/or changed where the corrupt will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality.

Sure, I don’t have any problem with that. However, it appears that you’re actually posing the answer to a question that has not been asked. That question is; At what point is one saved? Can we really pin this moment down to an actual event that we can put our little fingers on and say with assurance, “I am savedâ€Â. Let us re-think our question and instead of saying, “At what point am I savedâ€Â, let’s ask, “How has God changed my life?†You see, God is in the business of saving us by transforming us to His image and likeness. I’m not sure about you, but I’m a work in progress as Christ continues to transform my life.

Water baptism is an ordinance whereby we follow Jesus Christ for the first time in our walk of repentance, belief, and following him.

Let’s call it what it is. In one aspect, baptism is a ritual and as a ritual, it symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Rituals were always a part of God’s transforming work to align us in the image of Christ. Where we go wrong, is thinking that faith serves baptism. On the contrary, grace works through faith and thus, baptism serves faith as God’s transforming work. Going forward, please keep this in mind.

The water doesn't purify our souls, but the Holy Spirit purifies our souls.

Abosolutly. As we begin to transform into the image and likeness of Christ, we are buried into His death, and like Christ, we are raised from death in newness of life. Remember, grace works through faith, and baptism serves faith as God transforms our lives in His glory.

An infant that is baptized by water is no more saved than an adult who is baptized by water. It is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit upon one who believes after the Holy Spirit opens ones eyes concerning the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, let us ask ourselves, “What has God done in my life?â€Â. Baptism is a rite that serves the purpose to transform our lives and thus, impacts and transform the lives around us as we are called to be lights for all the nations. It is not a checklist that we must “do†because quite frankly, mercy always trumps any ritual. What you’re missing, is that God works through faith in the lives of believers. Notice, I used Lives and Believers, both being plural. Being ‘Saved’ is not a solo act. It took a mother and a father to bring you into the world and we were created in “Their Image aka Trinityâ€Â. Salvation is also not a solo act. It’s formula is simple, God’s grace acting through faith. Faith is a fuel that God’s grace transforms lives.
Let us look Luke 8:50 in context. It was the faith of the father that Jesus demanded for the father’s daughter to be brought back to life. You see, the faith that others have in you, is fully considered by Christ. It was not the faith of the daughter that brought her back to life; it was the faith of her Father where God’s grace was poured out upon her.
Granted, we are all accountable before God, but I’ll bet you that the father never forgot what happened and as a result, I’m sure that he nurtured his daughter’s faith while she was growing up. You see, salvation is a transformation, it’s not an act and it occurs and is nurtured within the community of believers.

No where in scripture are infants baptized. Every instance of baptism in the scriptures are performed on individuals that have repented and believed after hearing the word of God.

Ok, I’d agree with that. I’d also add that some (which I believe is the exception and not the rule) received the Holy Spirit before baptism (Acts 10) while others received the Holy Spirit after their baptism (Acts 8). Regardless, each instance regarded baptism as a part God’s transforming work.
To fully experience God’s transforming work; I believe that one must have faith in Christ as the instrument of God’s transforming grace and anyone that has been baptized as an infant should seek a fuller understanding of how God transforms us when we have faith. However, we must not make God’s grace look like a law, where one must check this box and that box to ensure that they have received salvation. Mercy always trumps ritual. When a mother or father baptizes their infant, it is an act of mercy and obedience that still requires faith and where faith in Christ is present, grace is able to transform.


I’ll bring this full circle to what Gabby wrote in her prayer. God can use our faith to impact those around us and when we pray for those that are lost or have not heard the gospel, I believe that God’s grace begins to penetrate their lives.

 

[unred typo]

Stovebolts wrote: However, it appears that you’re actually posing the answer to a question that has not been asked. That question is; At what point is one saved? Can we really pin this moment down to an actual event that we can put our little fingers on and say with assurance, “I am savedâ€Â. Let us re-think our question and instead of saying, “At what point am I savedâ€Â, let’s ask, “How has God changed my life?†You see, God is in the business of saving us by transforming us to His image and likeness. I’m not sure about you, but I’m a work in progress as Christ continues to transform my life.

I’m glad you guys finally came around to the topic. :-D If I could nail it in with one more question, Can Christ transform the life of a native without a Bible? Without our prayers? If not, why not? After the cross, was God's arm shortened that he cannot save? :o

 

[stovebolts]

I'll tell yo what. I'll let Solo answer that and if need be, I'll comment. Fair enough?

 

[Solo]

Ok, I’d agree with that. I’d also add that some (which I believe is the exception and not the rule) received the Holy Spirit before baptism (Acts 10) while others received the Holy Spirit after their baptism (Acts 8). Regardless, each instance regarded baptism as a part God’s transforming work.
To fully experience God’s transforming work; I believe that one must have faith in Christ as the instrument of God’s transforming grace and anyone that has been baptized as an infant should seek a fuller understanding of how God transforms us when we have faith. However, we must not make God’s grace look like a law, where one must check this box and that box to ensure that they have received salvation. Mercy always trumps ritual. When a mother or father baptizes their infant, it is an act of mercy and obedience that still requires faith and where faith in Christ is present, grace is able to transform.


I’ll bring this full circle to what Gabby wrote in her prayer. God can use our faith to impact those around us and when we pray for those that are lost or have not heard the gospel, I believe that God’s grace begins to penetrate their lives.

A simple response, faith doesn't come after water baptism, and infants can not execute faith until their understanding can come to terms with the Word of God. Infants may have their physical life resurrected by the faith of a parent, but their eternal salvation is dependent upon their own belief in the Word of God when they are able. A parent's faith can not be imputed to their children for salvation. The Bible does not speak on what occurs to those who are without Jesus Christ except for in Romans. I believe that infants who die before they are able to make a decision of faith are saved by the blood of Jesus, but that is my opinion.

 

[stovebolts]

I believe that infants who die before they are able to make a decision of faith are saved by the blood of Jesus, but that is my opinion.

I’ll agree with that.

Now, regarding the sub topic at hand. I think your referring to Catholics in your last post right? Catholics don’t believe in OSAS so I don’t see a parent’s faith imputing eternal salvation in that regard anyway. What I see here is this verse:
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. This Solo, starts at birth. I recall dedicating my son to the service of our Lord before he was born. My son will mirror me in many ways. The more I mirror Christ, the more my son will mirror me{Edit to say, "the more of Christ will reflect on my son's upbringing"} and if I’m pointing to Christ, then with God’s grace, he will be headed in the right direction.
Now, I’m not Catholic, but I don’t go for the OSAS or the TULIP doctrines either. As an active member in the church of Christ, I believe that faith baptism plays a major role in our salvation because quite simply, being ‘saved’ is the transformation that occurs as we take on more of Christ’s attributes. Baptism is the beginning of a transforming journey, it’s not the end all be all of salvation
Now, of course faith doesn’t come after water baptism… That’s why I started by posting Ephesians 2:8-9 and you seem to be missing the point. Grace works through faith and baptism serves faith. Faith does not serve baptism because if it did, then baptism would be a work from us and not that of our Lord. I posted this in another thread and though it’s a little rough around the edges, I hope it drives my point across a tad more.
http://christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=25599

Baptism is many things and one of those things is a ritual. I believe that just because somebody doesn’t get the ‘ritual’ right, doesn’t negate the fact that God can still be active as shown through many biblical examples that I can post if your interested. We must not reduce God’s grace to a ridged, legal checklist of things that “we must doâ€Â. The simple fact is this. Grace uses faith as it’s instruments to impute salvation. It is the faith of Christ that is the catalyst for grace. (Philippians 3:9-11) and wherever faith in Christ is present in a believers faith, the saving glory of God’s grace is always present to transform a life.
To those baptized as an infant, I would not discount their baptism for performing the ‘ritual’ in a manner that we do not agree with biblically. I would say that scripture teaches that baptism was performed in a particular manner in the first century which included the faith of the individual, as well as the faith of the community in the act of baptism, thus, their salvation could be more fully experienced if they were to revision baptism through their own faith while keeping the faith of the community within sight.

Here’s the real issue though Solo. It’s called the doctrine of original sin which was a doctrine worked out by none other than good old St. Augustine in the third century, (though I’d urge anyone to read his confessions as they are quite good) adopted by Luther and bastardized by the followers and spin off’s of Calvin… I hesitate to say, but I believe it was by the 5th century, this Augustinian doctrine of original sin pushed the church to start baptizing infants. You may want to check me on this as I don’t have the resources in front of me to currently validate this and it’s a bit rough in my memory.

Now, what I believe is the proper usage of Romans 3:23. This is not a verse that we should brow beat each other with to “Prove†original sin. You see, all means all here. All have sinned. This include both you and I Solo as Christians. Yes, Christians still sin… and because of this sin, we all fall short of the glory of God. That is to say, we miss the opportunity for faith to take us one step closer to the image and likeness of Christ. It all hinges on those two most important commandments.

 

[Solo]

The attribute trait of spiritual sin is inherited from Adam to all mankind as are the physical attributes of genetic mapping.

Adam and Eve sinned prior to having children, and were changed spiritually from that point on. All of their children were affected as were all generations from that point on.

You can argue the "original sin" portion if you'd like, but the important thing to understand is that not one person has lived without sinning. At what age does one commit their first sin? Why do they sin? Do they not sin because they were born sinners?

Infant baptism is practiced in other churches beside the Roman Catholic Church. As I have said, I was baptized as an infant in a United Church of Christ (I thought it was a Lutheran Church), and confirmed in a Lutheran Church. I was not born again until repenting, and believing the word of God at 28 years of age. I was then baptized (immersed) in water.

Infant baptism does not save a person, nor is a person born again when baptized as an infant. Infant baptism is more of a dedication that the parents will raise the child in the admonition of the Lord, but it does not guarentee it. Also, when one is baptized as an infant, it confuses some as to whether they are born again or not; as in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[stovebolts]

I think I'm just going to start a thread on baptism ;-)

 

[unred typo]

I think I'm just going to start a thread on baptism ;-)

Great idea. I think I'll go back and dig out my last unanswered 'native' post and repost it down here.

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote: What is the kingdom of heaven? Eternal Life.
What does it mean to enter the kingdom of heaven? To receive eternal life.
What does the phrase ‘as a little child’ mean? Having implicit trust.
Your turn

OK, thank you for the clarification. I wouldn’t have thought that the kingdom of heaven was eternal life and we would have been talking passed one another for sure. I think of the kingdom of heaven as all of the realms that are subject to the reign of God. I would have been making arguments using verses that pertained to that, including these verses:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. and Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
or Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. or verse 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Since you’re asking specifically about eternal life, I’ll go another route.

So what you’re asking is not, “What is the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven?†but “What is the criteria to receive eternal life?†although they are interchangeable apparently to you and others here.

The answer can be found the easiest in the Romans Road of chapter 2:

Rom 2 :5 But after your hardness and impenitent heart treasures up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (note what they receive: ) eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (note that they do not receive eternal life but instead: ) indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Did you get that? By patient continuance in well doing and good works and not being contentious but being obedient to the truth and righteousness, a person will receive eternal life.

And as long as I'm reposting here... how about if i tack on these questions too:
Can Christ transform the life of a native without a Bible? Without our prayers? If not, why not? After the cross, was God's arm shortened that he cannot save?

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote: I believe that water baptism comes after salvation and that it is the first command of obedience to follow. I believe that natives that never hear the gospel have an inate knowledge of God almighty and can know him through the creation, so there is not excuse. I also do not think that anyone knows for sure, but my stand is that whatever God deems is right, is right. If God deems that all natives go to hell, then it is right that all natives go to hell. God is the creator of all natives and it is up to him to do what he wants with them.

What God does is always right and fair and merciful. He doesn’t do cruel, unreasonable things and call then right just because he said so. God does not justify the wicked. But God is love. He has told us what he wants to do with the world, including natives that have never heard of Jesus Christ and the truth he spoke. He is not willing that any should perish but all come to the knowledge of the truth. That’s why he wrote his laws on their hearts for them to come to know the truth. What truth does God teach? Paul said we are all taught of God to love one another. Since God is love and whosoever dwells in love, dwells in God, the native who loves his neighbor dwells in God just as surely as the theological major. The gospel that they haven’t heard is that if they do love and forgive one another, they have been forgiven by means of the sacrifice of Christ and the Lord will take away their sin and give them eternal life.



Solo wrote: The same goes for all creation and not just natives. In households there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and the potter can do as he wishes with his pottery. God's righteousness, and the faith that he has given me, give me the assurance that all that occurs contains all of His love, mercy, grace, justice, etc. etc. etc.

God could turn you into a chamber pot if he wants to but he still would not be unjust and forget your labor of love. The love that you have shown to others will be shown to you. You have God’s word on it. The love that natives have shown to each other will not be forgotten either. There is no respect of persons with God.
The Bible says that if a man loves others, God dwells in him:
1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us.

And he dwells in God:

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

And he lives in light:

1 John 2:9 He that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not whither he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

And God forgives his sins:

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.