The New Covenant

[RND]

I'll be waiting for that Scripture. I have time. I have until I die or until the Return of my Master, whichever comes first. :D We'll accept it from either one of you, or both of you, we don't care. :P

Oh, ye of little faith.....

You're not still holding your breath I hope!

 

[RND]

RND, you are correct, that is why I stated the church age is a dispensation and we are under the Abrahamic covenant God made with Abram for both Jew and Gentile.

Hey Tom, thanks for your comment. Being that I'm not a dispensationalist the idea that the church replaced Israel isn't a notion I buy into. That's why I see Jesus as the embodiment of what Israel failed to do. Hence Jesus is Israel and not the church.

Israel means "overcomer."

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

prevailed = yakol = or (fuller) yakowl {yaw-kole'}; a primitive root; to be able, literally (can, could) or morally (may, might):--be able, any at all (ways), attain, can (away with, (-not)), could, endure, might, overcome, have power, prevail, still, suffer.

Jesus told us to relax, He has overcome the world.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

overcome = nikaw = from nikh - nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

Everything goes together like "peas and carrots."

 

[Vic C.]

:D Inconclusive RND. You didn't read my post carefully. :P I said:

Please provide Scripture that proves without shadow of a doubt that the New Covenant is only for Israel and Judah.

The truth is, you won't be able to do it. You guys need to take off your blinders that only allow you to see things related to the OT only. This is how it is:

Don't you believe it is possible for God to expand the New Covenant to include Gentiles? I sure do. I also believe God is capable of dividing the covenant into portions as well. While the Gentiles aren't experiencing the material provisions of this covenant, we do benefit from a very important portion of this Covenant. We are granted the blessings of this Covenant and the greatest blessing of all is one of Salvation through the one time and one time only shedding of the blood of Christ.

That can't be dismissed and it can't be taken away from us. There will not be a third covenant available for anyone. Does it really matter that the Prophets of old never mentioned the inclusion of the NT ekklesia when they spoke of this New Covenant? It doesn't. Prophecy, just like revelation, can be progressive and the NT does a great job of showing the New Covenant or portions of it, are for Gentiles... now!

You guys can't build a box big enough to contain God, HIS Plan and HIS Will.

I don't care to wallow in this muck you guys call doctrine too much longer. Paul suffered tremendously, was shipwrecked and arrested as he followed Divine orders to further the Gospel message to these Gentile nations that you guys claim have no part in the New Covenant.

Someone better go tell Paul he was wasting his time.

 

[RND]

:D Inconclusive RND. You didn't read my post carefully. :P I said:

Please provide Scripture that proves without shadow of a doubt that the New Covenant is only for Israel and Judah.

Inconclusive? Be serious Vic. Salvation is never promised to the gentiles any other way than through accepting the "covenant" the God provides.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The truth is, you won't be able to do it. You guys need to take off your blinders that only allow you to see things related to the OT only. This is how it is:

Don't you believe it is possible for God to expand the New Covenant to include Gentiles? I sure do.

Yeah I believe that Vic, and how does God do that? How does God to expand the New Covenant to include Gentiles? By making them part of the "family" through adoption. Gal 3:27-29.

By making them "fellowcitizens" with the saints. Fellowcitizen's Vic. Eph 2:16:22

I also believe God is capable of dividing the covenant into portions as well.

Hey, I'm glad you "believe" that. I love to see one scripture that even alludes that God divides His covenant. That is John Hagee "duel covenant" stuff.

While the Gentiles aren't experiencing the material provisions of this covenant, we do benefit from a very important portion of this Covenant. We are granted the blessings of this Covenant and the greatest blessing of all is one of Salvation through the one time and one time only shedding of the blood of Christ.

Again, that sounds nice Vic, but from a scriptural POV you don't have a leg to stand on.

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

To be part of the covenant they must join the covenant.

That can't be dismissed and it can't be taken away from us. There will not be a third covenant available for anyone. Does it really matter that the Prophets of old never mentioned the inclusion of the NT ekklesia when they spoke of this New Covenant? It doesn't. Prophecy, just like revelation, can be progressive and the NT does a great job of showing the New Covenant or portions of it, are for Gentiles... now!

That's just it Vic the prophets did mention the the gentiles that would be a part of the covenant with God and how they become Israelites.

You guys can't build a box big enough to contain God, HIS Plan and HIS Will.

Built a box? I'm trying to tear down the box of "dual covenant" theology that makes no sense.

I don't care to wallow in this muck you guys call doctrine too much longer. Paul suffered tremendously, was shipwrecked and arrested as he followed Divine orders to further the Gospel message to these Gentile nations that you guys claim have no part in the New Covenant.

Vic, you are missing the point. I haven't said the gentile nations don't have a part in the covenant. They have a part in the covenant when they accept the covenant which was the embodiment of Jesus Christ. Jesus is Israel. Israel, as a nation, included both Israel and Judah.

Pay attention!

Someone better go tell Paul he was wasting his time.

Paul never said anything different than I'm saying, in fact Vic, I got it from Him.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

 

[sonlite101]

Hey you guys!

I'm confused! What is this about Jesus being Israel? Dual covenant stuff--what is that? and the gentiles being "mercifully included" into a covenant that was for Israel and Judah only, if I read you right? :crazy

The covenant of grace (new covenant) initially hinted of in the garden in the presence of two gentiles, Adam and Eve, was later on revealed to a slightly better degree to another gentile: Abraham, a Chaldean/Babylonian.

sonlite101

 

[Tomlane]

RND,

Hey Tom, thanks for your comment. Being that I'm not a dispensationalist the idea that the church replaced Israel isn't a notion I buy into. That's why I see Jesus as the embodiment of what Israel failed to do. Hence Jesus is Israel and not the church.

I believe you will find the term Christ is Israel is in error for Israel is God's chosen people.

Deuteronomy 7:6  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Also Christ is the head of the church and both Jew and Gentile are now a new creation in the church and the church is made of living stones. 2nd Peter 2:5,

Colossians 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So the above verse proves Christ is the head of the church.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Also you said you are not a dispensationlist. You make sound like an error in scripture. If you do believe that, then Paul must have been in error as well as he used the term dispensation 4 times. Maybe Paul was in error?

1 Corinthians 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Ephesians 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Tomlane

 

[RND]

I believe you will find the term Christ is Israel is in error for Israel is God's chosen people.

Deuteronomy 7:6  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

What would you call a gentile that became an Israelite? Like Caleb for example? See Exodus 12:48-49.

Also Christ is the head of the church and both Jew and Gentile are now a new creation in the church and the church is made of living stones. 2nd Peter 2:5,

Living stones in the temple. Where was the temple centered?

Colossians 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So the above verse proves Christ is the head of the church.

Sure, and what does "church" mean? The "called out" ones. What happened to Israel and the mixed multitude in Egypt? They were "called out." And what was "Israel" compared to Tom? A Son.

Hsa 11:1 When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Just like Israel, Jesus was called out of Egypt.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We walk by faith, not sight.

Also you said you are not a dispensationlist. You make sound like an error in scripture.

Theology. Scofield was simply wrong. Sorry, I'm a historicist and fantasy and flying away before trouble stories are just that....story's.

If you do believe that, then Paul must have been in error as well as he used the term dispensation 4 times. Maybe Paul was in error?

And what was the meaning behind Paul's use of the word?

oikonomia = administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.

Context is vital Tom.

 

[Tomlane]

My replies to RND,

What would you call a gentile that became an Israelite? Like Caleb for example? See Exodus 12:48-49.

I believe a converted Gentile to Judaism would be a Proselyte.

Living stones in the temple. Where was the temple centered?

Such easy questions so far, thanks.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The church or spiritual house is Christ's body or church.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Since the Lord adds the members, there are no unsaved in the Church Christ is building unlike the religious churches fostered by men that has both saved and unsaved in these denominations.

The head of this Church is in heaven, unlike false churches that have their headquarters here on the earth but the church Christ is building headquarters is at the right hand on the throne of the Father.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Location of this Spiritual House

1 Peter 3:21 ¶The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Sure, and what does "church" mean? The "called out" ones. What happened to Israel and the mixed multitude in Egypt? They were "called out." And what was "Israel" compared to Tom? A Son.

Hsa 11:1 When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Just like Israel, Jesus was called out of Egypt.

Its amazing to me how you have combined the called out ones in this church dispensation with Egypt. Truly amazing. To me its very obvious the son referred to in Matthew and Hsa is Israel. Says so right in the verse in Hsa. When Israel was a child, I loved him, {Israel} and out of Egypt I have called my son, {Israel}. Matthew is referring to the same thing, {Israel}

You are right church means called out ones or a gathering or group of people that is completely the opposite of the meaning of church today. Today the word church describes the church doctrine you choose to believe.

Called out ones in the way God uses that term signifies the ones the Lord has called out from among the spiritually dead and made them alive with His Holy spirit and seals those that have accepted Him by blind faith.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

1 John 3:1 ¶Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Anyone who is been added to the church that Christ is building is a Son of God.

1 John 3:1 ¶Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

The world with man's religion and traditions don't know God or do they understand his ways for they don't have the mind of Christ and those that have been born again have fallen into man's religions and are asleep spiritually and the things of God are foolishness to them.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We walk by faith, not sight.

You are correct and most don't really believe that for when they practice physical ordinances they are walking by sight for spiritual things are just that of the spirit and not of the flesh.

Theology
. Scofield was simply wrong. Sorry, I'm a historicist and fantasy and flying away before trouble stories are just that....story's.

I have no idea how Scofield fits into this discussion nor do I have any idea what a historicist is since I couldn't find any English word for Historicist. Therefore I can't make any comments and the statement is too vague to even guess at it. Sorry :D

And what was the meaning behind Paul's use of the word?

oikonomia = administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.

Context is vital Tom.

You are correct RND, that is the definition Strong's concordance gives and I have no reason to think it would be incorrect.

Paul was given the Stewardship of revealing the Church that had been hidden.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church

Paul was also given the administration of the church through inspiration from Christ.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

All of Paul's epistles were instructions for the church and still should be today since Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and to the Jews concerning the Church.

I hope that answered your questions and thank you for asking.

Tomlane

 

[RND]

I believe a converted Gentile to Judaism would be a Proselyte.

They'd be called an "Israelite." Tom, the question I asked would be akin to asking what would you call an Australian that became a citizen of the US. You'd call them an American. These converts were not converts to "Judaism" the were converts to Israel.

Living stones in the temple. Where was the temple centered?

Tom, no need to quote a zillion scriptures that have no basis regarding the questions I ask.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

The "temple" i.e. sanctuary has always been in the "midst" of the people.

Its amazing to me how you have combined the called out ones in this church dispensation with Egypt. Truly amazing. To me its very obvious the son referred to in Matthew and Hsa is Israel.

Right. Christ the Son.

Says so right in the verse in Hsa. When Israel was a child, I loved him, {Israel} and out of Egypt I have called my son, {Israel}. Matthew is referring to the same thing, {Israel}

Matthew tells you that Christ fulfilled this prophecy. It was referring to Jesus.

You are right church means called out ones or a gathering or group of people that is completely the opposite of the meaning of church today. Today the word church describes the church doctrine you choose to believe.

No, I still see these people as seeking. They have poor teachers.

Called out ones in the way God uses that term signifies the ones the Lord has called out from among the spiritually dead and made them alive with His Holy spirit and seals those that have accepted Him by blind faith.

Blind faith? Faith is never blind.

Anyone who is been added to the church that Christ is building is a Son of God.

Right. A "fellowcitizen" with the saints. An "adopted" member of the family.

The world with man's religion and traditions don't know God or do they understand his ways for they don't have the mind of Christ and those that have been born again have fallen into man's religions and are asleep spiritually and the things of God are foolishness to them.

God is still working on them.

You are correct and most don't really believe that for when they practice physical ordinances they are walking by sight for spiritual things are just that of the spirit and not of the flesh.

No. One can still observe the passing of the feast, festivals and holy days and ponder the deep meaning behind them.

I have no idea how Scofield fits into this discussion nor do I have any idea what a historicist is since I couldn't find any English word for Historicist. Therefore I can't make any comments and the statement is too vague to even guess at it. Sorry :D

Scofield was a dispensationalist that believed and taught the "secret rapture." a Historicist is a term as old as the Reformation it's self.

Historicism

You are correct RND, that is the definition Strong's concordance gives and I have no reason to think it would be incorrect.

Paul was given the Stewardship of revealing the Church that had been hidden.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church

Paul was also given the administration of the church through inspiration from Christ.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

All of Paul's epistles were instructions for the church and still should be today since Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and to the Jews concerning the Church.

I hope that answered your questions and thank you for asking.

Tom, I don't know if we are on the same page of understanding what "dispensationalism" is.

 

[Tomlane]

RND, Do you and Francis go to the same church or are you taught the same theology?

Acts 6:5  And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Read your dictionary RND and you will learn anyone converted to Judaism is a proselyte.

Tomlane

 

[RND]

RND, Do you and Francis go to the same church or are you taught the same theology?

:D Short answer: No! Francis is a Catholic and I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.

Acts 6:5  And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Read your dictionary RND and you will learn anyone converted to Judaism is a proselyte.

People that joined the nation of Israel were "Israelites" Tom. A Jew is a descendant of the Levites, the Bejamites and those of Judah. Christianity has it's roots in the "Hebraic" Tom, not "Judaism." There is a huge difference between Torah and Tanakh and Torah, Tanakh and Talmud. Rabinic Judaism has nothing to do with the Hebraic.

 

[dan p]

Hi Bob Ryan , I have never seen a verse that mention the ONE GOSPEL , AND would be pleased to see where it is found.

1) The New Covenant in Heb 8:8 , says that the New Covenant will be made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah .

2) So my question to you is , where are the Gentiles found in Heb 8:8 , or in Jer 31:31 , and , or in Ezek 36: 23-28 .

3) They are NOT because the New Covenant has to do with Israel ONLY, AND CAN'T SEE , HOW YOU CAN MISS THAT THEY ( Israel ) will be back in their land in Ezek 36 , how can you miss that that verses that I have shown ALL have to do with Israel ?

 

[RND]

2) So my question to you is , where are the Gentiles found in Heb 8:8 , or in Jer 31:31 , and , or in Ezek 36: 23-28

In Jesus.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.