The New Human

[Jim Parker]

It was indeed a vision, take a look for yourself in this interlinear,This translation I gave you is from the ESV. Very standard translation.

That's nice. Equally valid translations are; “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen" (NLT), “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen" (NIV), "Don't tell anyone what you saw" (HNV)

The Greek word ὅραμα (horama) does not have so narrow a meaning as to require it to mean some kind of ecstatic experience only. (The Koine Greek of the New Testament is not a technical language like English tends to be with very precise meanings for each word. It is the Greek of the market-place or, as my Greek professor used to say, it's "I seen 'im when 'e done it" Greek.)

And, even if it was such an ecstatic experience, it does not mean that it was not real or that they were not given a real vision of the real Jesus' in His real glory.

I am not making this up

Then please clarify; was Jesus glorified (radiating light, as you say) at the creation or not until the ascension?

I
am well studied in scripture.

Ah! Good for you! Where did you study?

iakov the fool

 

[cgaviria]

That's nice. Equally valid translations are; “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen" (NLT), “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen" (NIV), "Don't tell anyone what you saw" (HNV)

The Greek word ὅραμα (horama) does not have so narrow a meaning as to require it to mean some kind of ecstatic experience only. (The Koine Greek of the New Testament is not a technical language like English tends to be with very precise meanings for each word. It is the Greek of the market-place or, as my Greek professor used to say, it's "I seen 'im when 'e done it" Greek.)

And, even if it was such an ecstatic experience, it does not mean that it was not real or that they were not given a real vision of the real Jesus' in His real glory.

Then please clarify; was Jesus glorified (radiating light, as you say) at the creation or not until the ascension?

Ah! Good for you! Where did you study?

iakov the fool

A vision is something that occurs in the body, which is similar to a dream. When John was seeing the visions of Revelation, do you suppose he was literally seeing a prostitute decked out as she was described, mounted on a beast with heads and horns? No, it was a vision. It is happening inside the mind, but not outside the mind.

I didn't study anywhere, as I am not a theologian nor scholar, I have come to learn these things by what God has allowed me to see in studying his scriptures, and have thus become well learned.

 

[Roro1972]

Peter, James and John saw it on mount Tabor. (Mat 17:1-2) The "glory of Jesus" is the "glory of God" (Jhn 17:5) and it is the same yesterday, today, and forever.(Heb 13:8)

If you think that you are no longer sinning, you are deceived.( 1Jo 1:8)

I like these verses no mystery just plain facts.

 

[Jim Parker]

A vision is something that occurs in the body, which is similar to a dream. When John was seeing the visions of Revelation, do you suppose he was literally seeing a prostitute decked out as she was described, mounted on a beast with heads and horns? No, it was a vision. It is happening inside the mind, but not outside the mind.

ALL vision, whether of a landscape or of the Revelation of Jesus Christ takes place within the mind. Vision does not happen "out there", it happens in the brain where the stimuli are interpreted.
If you are saying that a "vision" is not real then we can all tear out the book of revelation and a good sized chunk of Daniel and some of Ezekiel and Isaiah because they were all "visions."

I didn't study anywhere, as I am not a theologian nor scholar,

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

Simply reading the Bible will get you saved and a long way down the road to being well versed in the wisdom of the Bible.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)


iakov the fool

 

[cgaviria]

ALL vision, whether of a landscape or of the Revelation of Jesus Christ takes place within the mind. Vision does not happen "out there", it happens in the brain where the stimuli are interpreted.
If you are saying that a "vision" is not real then we can all tear out the book of revelation and a good sized chunk of Daniel and some of Ezekiel and Isaiah because they were all "visions."

I didn't study anywhere, as I am not a theologian nor scholar,
(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

Simply reading the Bible will get you saved and a long way down the road to being well versed in the wisdom of the Bible.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)


iakov the fool

Did God not reveal his truth to babes?

At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. (Matthew 11:25 [NIV])

God gives his wisdom for free, so why should I get thousands of dollars into debt, which we are commanded by Paul not to get into debt, to learn babbles from theologians and scholars who don't know what they're talking about? I have my bible in front of me, and this is sufficient.

Now, concerning visions. I didn't say visions are not real, I said that the visions didn't happen outside the body, they happen inside the mind. All the visions of John were real, but they happened inside his mind. This isn't rocket science. Even Paul affirms in another matter related to visions,

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- (2 Corinthians 12:2-3 [NIV])

 

[netchaplain]

My friend Cgaviria - I believe you are sincere in your posts, but are you using a different Bible than the Protestant versions?

 

[netchaplain]

My friend Cgaviria - I believe you are sincere in your posts, but are you using a different Bible than the Protestant versions?

It appears you do use a Protestant Bible, please excuse me for asking you that question. God bless.

 

[cgaviria]

My friend Cgaviria - I believe you are sincere in your posts, but are you using a different Bible than the Protestant versions?

I use any translation that more accurately conveys the original meaning of a verse, as I don't hold one translation above another, some are more useful than others depending on what book you are in, and what manuscript it is derived from, and which original language. Personally, I enjoy the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, which is based on the Greek Septuagint. Yet even this translation, is not without it's own issues too.

 

[netchaplain]

Yet even this translation, is not without it's own issues too.

Thanks for the reply! I believe there are no "perfect" translations, but if it is plenary concerning the contents, I believe it's the best one to use. It's the Word of God within the translation that is "perfect." Most translations do not use the Majority text as their primary source and therefore are quite short of Scripture content within the Greek of the NT.

 

[Jim Parker]

(Post removed. Multiple violations of ToS 2,4, personal insults, as well as off topic. Obadiah)

 

[cgaviria]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Jim Parker]

(Post removed. Multiple violations of ToS 2.4, personal insults, as well as off topic. Obadiah)

 

[cgaviria]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for moderator review.

 

[Obadiah]

Re-opening this thread now. But it needs to return to the topic, which is NOT belittling someone for having less formal education or what Bible translations are best.

 

[netchaplain]

Roro - I also realized something that may help to address the maybe "no blood" issue (#5, 12) which is that Adam and Eve surly had blood, and they would have maintained an eternal state of being (Gen 3:22) had they not fell.

 

[Roro1972]

Roro - I also realized something that may help to address the maybe "no blood" issue (#5, 12) which is that Adam and Eve surly had blood, and they would have maintained an eternal state of being (Gen 3:22) had they not fell.

I believe that is true they had blood; but they were not created with a spiritual body like we are to receive one day

 

[netchaplain]

I believe that is true they had blood; but they were not created with a spiritual body like we are to receive one day

I believe we need to remain closer to the OP topic because we have been informed that this issue is probably not related close enough to be considered on topic, which is a form rule.

We can open another thread for this topic or use the "conversation" option if you like.

God bless!

 

[Randy]

Presently, the Lord Jesus is the sole Human without sin, but soon “when He shall appear,” the believers “shall be like Him,” because they “shall see Him as He is” (1Jhn 3:2). “Like Him” in being “without sin,” for sin was imputed to Him when He first appeared in the humiliation of His earthly life (2Cor 5:21). But as “He shall appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Heb 9:28), so shall we also be “without sin” when we “see Him.”

This is said to be “unto salvation,” e.g. the full application of “salvation” being completed by “the redemption of our body” (Rom 8:23), for believers are presently completely redeemed in their spirit but not yet in their body which will be “changed” (1Cor 15:51, 52) into a “spiritual body” (1Cor 15:44), “that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body” (Phl 3:21). The Lord’s spiritual body is a new type of physical body (which we will have) wherein its “flesh and bone” (Luk 24:39) is incorruptible, unlike our present corruptible natural body.

The Resurrection is all about the bodies of the saints, for our spirits have been resurrected, in which Christ which will bring about the new human race (“the body, the church”), wherein the Lord Jesus “is the Head” for He has “the preeminence” (Col 1:18), and shall “present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph 5:27). These are those who are “found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless” (2Pet 3:14), whose “mortal bodies” shall be “quickened” by “the Spirit of Him (Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead” (Rom 8:11).

In this life the spirits of the believers are as redeemed as they will ever be. Their spirits will not be any more “regenerated” (Mat 19:28) than they are now. But in the completion during “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory,” their bodies will finally be regenerated, along with a New Heaven and Earth (Isa 65:17; 66:22; Act 3:21; 2Pe 3:13; 2Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1, 5).

Then will the purpose of creation and creature come to pass, which is Christ being “glorified in His saints” (2Thess 1:10), and the unbelievers departing “into everlasting fire” (Mat 25:41), who will go “away into everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46), being “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power” (2Thes 1:9).

-NC

The new bodies will not be of the dust of the earth. So we will be like the angels of God. Are we then still considered "human"? That is a biological distinction. Our new bodies will be in the order of spirit. We don't fully understand that so Paul stated we will be like Jesus who by the way is first in everything not just the resurrection. I would state the Father has always been living in Jesus as all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Him. And such fullness includes all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I don't believe Jesus was emptied of the "Father" ever. And the one living in Jesus was greater then the one in this world and Jesus rejected the wrong and chose the right. He also overcame the world as a servant. (Jesus of Nazareth was without sin)

The one in us is greater than the one in this world.

Randy

 

[netchaplain]

The new bodies will not be of the dust of the earth

Hi Randy - Thanks for you reply! I believe you bring up some good points and I agree, the spiritual body will not derive from the earth again as in the beginning (Gen 2:7), for it will derive from our present "vile" and "mortal bodies" (Phil 3:21; Rom 8:11).

I see no reason why our new spiritual body will not be a physical body, same as the Lord's body ("flesh and bone") in which He ascended.

we will be like the angels of God

This comment in Mat 22:30 is in reference to the state (not married) of the angles, not their form (spirit but no body). "We shall be changed" (1Co 15:51, 52) is not only in reference to us no longer possessing the sinful nature (old man) but also the body finally being "redeemed" from the curse of sin (Rom 8:23). We in our spirit need no further redemption other than our present redemption. Our spirit is presently immortal (as all people are) but not our body, thus, "this mortal must put on immortality" (1Co 15:53).

we will be like Jesus

"As He is" (1John 3:2); Sinless in our spirit and soul, and in an indestructible body. Could also be similar to man before sin, wherein it required Adam and Eve to eat of "the Tree of life" to continue body incorruptibility (Gen 3:22-24; Rev 2:7; 22:2, 14).