The New Human

[Randy]

Hi Randy - Thanks for you reply! I believe you bring up some good points and I agree, the spiritual body will not derive from the earth again as in the beginning (Gen 2:7), for it will derive from our present "vile" and "mortal bodies" (Phil 3:21; Rom 8:11).

I see no reason why our new spiritual body will not be a physical body, same as the Lord's body ("flesh and bone") in which He ascended.

This comment in Mat 22:30 is in reference to the state (not married) of the angles, not their form (spirit but no body). "We shall be changed" (1Co 15:51, 52) is not only in reference to us no longer possessing the sinful nature (old man) but also the body finally being "redeemed" from the curse of sin (Rom 8:23). We in our spirit need no further redemption other than our present redemption. Our spirit is presently immortal (as all people are) but not our body, thus, "this mortal must put on immortality" (1Co 15:53).


"As He is" (1John 3:2); Sinless in our spirit and soul, and in an indestructible body. Could also be similar to man before sin, wherein it required Adam and Eve to eat of "the Tree of life" to continue body incorruptibility (Gen 3:22-24; Rev 2:7; 22:2, 14).

Well I do believe in a bodily resurrection and I do believe we were made in the form or image of God. We will just have to wait and see if "human" still applies. (smile)

Moses appeared more like an angel on the mountain top when he was speaking to Jesus about the Lords departure. He still had the form of a man or should I state a form after the image of God as the God in the bible has a head arms legs masked by fire etc.. sitting on His throne.

Randy

 

[netchaplain]

Well I do believe in a bodily resurrection and I do believe we were made in the form or image of God. We will just have to wait and see if "human" still applies. (smile)

Moses appeared more like an angel on the mountain top when he was speaking to Jesus about the Lords departure. He still had the form of a man or should I state a form after the image of God as the God in the bible has a head arms legs masked by fire etc. sitting on His throne.

good answer and interesting speculation! Not that it matters who's correct in their concepts, and since hair splitting is more interesting than zero activity , I think it would determine concerning the interpretation of "human." Initially my inclination would be to consider that Jesus was not human prior to His coming, thus being in spirit only may not accurately define one as being human, thus a spirit who was once human may not be considered still human without the body.

Concerning Moses and Elijah's visitation (good thinking friend in Christ), I would think they would be in spirit only, because of 1Thes 4:15: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.” Sleep refers to the body and not the spirit, which I have no doubt never sleeps!

God's blessing to your Family!

 

[Randy]

good answer and interesting speculation! Not that it matters who's correct in their concepts, and since hair splitting is more interesting than zero activity , I think it would determine concerning the interpretation of "human." Initially my inclination would be to consider that Jesus was not human prior to His coming, thus being in spirit only may not accurately define one as being human, thus a spirit who was once human may not be considered still human without the body.

Concerning Moses and Elijah's visitation (good thinking friend in Christ), I would think they would be in spirit only, because of 1Thes 4:15: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.” Sleep refers to the body and not the spirit, which I have no doubt never sleeps!

God's blessing to your Family!

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

We don't (at the present time) understand the full nature of the new "body" in the order of Spirit. Angels appeared as both men but also as illuminated spiritual beings. The angels God sent to Abraham sat down and ate with him. A angel wrestled with Jacob. They had bodies. Yet the angel who appeared to Daniel was illuminated. Its as if they had a dual nature. Jesus has a body and He is in heaven. I think Moses and elijah also had a body on the mountain top with Jesus. I guess we can't fully know the answer yet.

Randy

 

[netchaplain]

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

We don't (at the present time) understand the full nature of the new "body" in the order of Spirit. Angels appeared as both men but also as illuminated spiritual beings. The angels God sent to Abraham sat down and ate with him. A angel wrestled with Jacob. They had bodies. Yet the angel who appeared to Daniel was illuminated. Its as if they had a dual nature. Jesus has a body and He is in heaven. I think Moses and elijah also had a body on the mountain top with Jesus. I guess we can't fully know the answer yet.

Randy

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This of course concerns the makeup of natural flesh and blood (natural body), which is said to be "perishable," it cannot inherit immortality and thus must be "changed" and become "imperishable"; which also confirms this passage to be in reference to the body only, because our spirit is imperishable. Therefore the Resurrection also primarily concerns the new body, because we are already new in our spirit.

Possessing a body (spiritual flesh) is a special situation (as angels also have their precious place) and may also be one of the subjects what "the angels desire to look into" (1Pe 1:12). I say possibly "one" of the reasons, because I think that which holds their greater interest concerning their "looking into" is the Lord Jesus manifesting God "in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16).

As we know, the makeup of angles and humans are dissimilar for in heaven they are without a body ("spirits" - Heb 4:11), except occasionally during special usages of God when He sends them on missions "to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." I would suppose the bodies of angels that are fully incarnate during their visitation serve only as a temporary purpose, which of course are not natural bodies like ours are presently.

Another concept concerning the body I've found to be interesting is that it appears (from Scripture) demons cannot incarnate like an angel can, which would answer to the fact that they have been encountered only through the possession of bodies, in which case I would imagine they also cannot come into physical contact (move objects) with the material universe without a being in a body.

 

[Malachi]

Concerning Moses and Elijah's visitation (good thinking friend in Christ), I would think they would be in spirit only...

If that were true there would have been no need to build them tabernacles (tents) as the apostles wanted to (more wrongly than rightly). Also the Bible would have said that only their spirits were present.

 

[Roro1972]

If that were true there would have been no need to build them tabernacles (tents) as the apostles wanted to (more wrongly than rightly). Also the Bible would have said that only their spirits were present.

reminds me of this verse
1 Corin 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[Randy]

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This of course concerns the makeup of natural flesh and blood (natural body), which is said to be "perishable," it cannot inherit immortality and thus must be "changed" and become "imperishable"; which also confirms this passage to be in reference to the body only, because our spirit is imperishable. Therefore the Resurrection also primarily concerns the new body, because we are already new in our spirit.

Possessing a body (spiritual flesh) is a special situation (as angels also have their precious place) and may also be one of the subjects what "the angels desire to look into" (1Pe 1:12). I say possibly "one" of the reasons, because I think that which holds their greater interest concerning their "looking into" is the Lord Jesus manifesting God "in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16).

As we know, the makeup of angles and humans are dissimilar for in heaven they are without a body ("spirits" - Heb 4:11), except occasionally during special usages of God when He sends them on missions "to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." I would suppose the bodies of angels that are fully incarnate during their visitation serve only as a temporary purpose, which of course are not natural bodies like ours are presently.

Another concept concerning the body I've found to be interesting is that it appears (from Scripture) demons cannot incarnate like an angel can, which would answer to the fact that they have been encountered only through the possession of bodies, in which case I would imagine they also cannot come into physical contact (move objects) with the material universe without a being in a body.

Jesus has a body and He is in heaven. I am sure you hold to a bodily resurrection of the Lord. We will be like Him. Those alive on earth at His return are in the tent of a human body. They need to be clothed with the new promised body. I have no reason to believe those in heaven now haven't already received that gift. Spirit to me doesn't have "form". Moses and Elijah had form. Head hands etc...That would suggest to me they have their new bodies.

In regard to the angels who participated with satan in the insurrection against God I would think God destroyed their bodies. They now exist in spirit form only hence they have no form and are invisible to mankind.

I guess we will have to wait and see when we get to heaven to fully know what we now talk about.

Randy

 

[netchaplain]

I see no problem (since this subject concerns nonessential salvation doctrine) if one desires to conceive Moses and Elijah were already "changed" (1Cor 15:52), but I do see the concept in opposition with "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep" (1Thes 4:15). This passage indicates to me that no human will be with the Lord Jesus in the resurrected body before another, because we all "shall be caught up together . . . to meet the Lord in the air" (1Thes 4:17).

The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This is a good passage because it's highly applicable to the subject. Simply put, Adam "was made" one who possessed a natural body sustained by natural means, i.e. food, drink, sleep, etc. This of course is the same for Christ who eventually became one who possessed a spiritual body different from a natural body. It also indicates His ability to give life to the natural body, hence "quickening" or life-giving, in which ours will be the same as His present heavenly "incorruptible" body.

 

[Malachi]

...but I do see the concept in opposition with "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep" (1Thes 4:15).

We already know from Scripture that Enoch and Elijah were exceptions to this rule. They were "translated" or raptured long ago. We can surmise that Moses too was an exception, and when he appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration, he could be easily identified by the three apostles who were with Christ. Scripture gives us succinct glimpses into matters which could require a lot of detail. It would appear that Moses and Elijah will also be the two prophets who are witnesses for God on earth during the Tribulation (Rev 11). At that time they are killed and resurrected back to Heaven.

 

[netchaplain]

Not to contend with the familiar concept concerning Moses and Elijah being the "two witnesses," I wanted to share that there are scholars who attribute these witnesses to others, such as Moses and Aaron, at the deliverance of the children of Israel out of Egypt; Caleb and Joshua, at their entrance into Canaan; Elijah and Elisha in the idolatrous times of Ahab; and Joshua and Zerubbabel at the rebuilding and finishing of the second temple; or even the Old and New Testaments, but commentator evidence is generally uncertain of who they actually are because Scripture offers no confirming evidence, causing many scholars to avoid attributing to who they will be, due to the non-necessity of knowing who they are.

 

[Randy]

We already know from Scripture that Enoch and Elijah were exceptions to this rule. They were "translated" or raptured long ago. We can surmise that Moses too was an exception, and when he appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration, he could be easily identified by the three apostles who were with Christ. Scripture gives us succinct glimpses into matters which could require a lot of detail. It would appear that Moses and Elijah will also be the two prophets who are witnesses for God on earth during the Tribulation (Rev 11). At that time they are killed and resurrected back to Heaven.

No, (I/we/the church) don't know who the two witnesses will be. I would state they will be two born and raised at that time period (rev 11). No where does it state Moses and Elijah will come down from heaven and be those two witnesses. It states "two witnesses"...No names given.

 

[Malachi]

No where does it state Moses and Elijah will come down from heaven and be those two witnesses. It states "two witnesses"...No names given.

1. Actually the coming of Elijah before the Day of the Lord is clearly stated in Scripture (Malachi 4:5,6): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
2. The miracles of the two prophets in Revelation 11 correspond to the miracles of Moses and Elijah as recorded in the OT.

 

[netchaplain]

1. Actually the coming of Elijah before the Day of the Lord is clearly stated in Scripture (Malachi 4:5,6): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
2. The miracles of the two prophets in Revelation 11 correspond to the miracles of Moses and Elijah as recorded in the OT.

I would suggest conferring with a biblical commentator concerning this subject (Mal 4) because of its level of conjecture, and is also why I mentioned in #50 that you could be correct but it's not a certainty.

Suggested viewing fro Malachi 4:5, 6: http://www.christianity.com/bible/comments/malachi/gill/malachi4.htm

 

[Malachi]

I would suggest conferring with a biblical commentator concerning this subject

With all due respect to John Gill (who is generally an excellent commentator) he has deliberately misinterpreted Mal 4:5 by applying it to the first coming of Christ, when we know that the Day of the LORD is yet future. How could the first coming of Christ possibly be "the dreadful Day of the Lord" when the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world? Gill is definitely wrong on this matter.

Before the coming of the great and, dreadful day of the Lord; that is, before the coming of Christ the son of David, as the Jews {r} themselves own; and which is to be understood, not of the second coming of Christ to judgment, though that is sometimes called the great day, and will be dreadful to Christless sinners; but of the first coming of Christ, reaching to the destruction of Jerusalem:

 

[netchaplain]

Hello Everyone...
My name is Prince Jourdain. Im 36 yrs old. I live in Buffalo, New York. I hold a B.A. in Art History from the State University of New York and I'm also a U.S. Army vet. I moved to the U.S. at age 10 from the Congo. In 2013 I went to the Congo for the first time to meet the family I never knew and to also have an idea of where I came from. The Congo is a country that has been in war for over two decades, but I could not fight the urge to see my family for the first time and also know my roots. During my visit there, I met a young lady and married her in our traditional way. Officially we are still fiancés. Upon my return to the United States, I soon learned that my fiancé and I were pregnant. On the 25th of December 2014, Prince Michaelange Jourdain came into this beautiful world of ours. I was not there for the pregnancy and the birth of my son. Today he's a year and two month and I still havent laid eyes upon him or held him in my arms. With the current economic state of the country and living in the second poorest city in the United States (Buffalo), it has been very difficult to find an employment that would make me financially capable of bringing both my son and fiancé out of a war torn country and reunite as a family in a safer place. Although I hold a university degree, I have been working as a mover (moving household furniture) for a local company since my return from the Congo. This employment has enable me to support my son and fiancé thus far, but it is far from being able to bring them here. The immigration fees to process their applications, producing passports, medical exams, plane tickets, and supporting them and myself as a mover making $10/hr has proven to be extremely difficult.
I'm fighting against time because the situation in the Congo is getting worst by the day. The on going wars are getting bigger and numerous. Telecommunication is getting worst, along with a food and water crisis. The current president is refusing to step down while the population is calling for war. It's simply an utter mess and my child is in the middle of all of this.
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I, too, have volunteered in Africa through my university study abroad program at the State University of New York at Albany in 2003. We went to Ghana, West Africa for an academic course in Africana Studies but we, as a class, did a lot of good charity works in orphanages, elementary and secondary schools.
I have volunteered at a refugee shelter in my city of Buffalo. I'm also involved in an afterschool program on the West Side of Buffalo as a tutor and mentor to high school stydents.
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To those who choose to help me, I will forever be greatful. I will document Prince's arrival and share his infancy with you (through pictures and videos on his own Facebook page that I will create for you to also follow him if you wish). Please Help Me Bring Prince to the United States. Give this beautiful boy a chance to reach his full potential. Help me get my only child out of a war torn country and reunite him with his father. Help me create a cohesive family unit. Please Help make this story end beautifully.
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God Bless You All and...
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Prince
Donations: gofundme.com/princejourdain

Hi PJ - Thanks for your introduction and God's blessings to you family!

 

[netchaplain]

"the dreadful Day of the Lord"

Appreciate the respectful manner in your reply, and if you check with any commentator, you will see they all agree that the Mal 4:5 "dreadfull day of the Lord" relates to the first coming (though other usages relate to other times which are in other passages but not this one) of Christ.

It references His completion and cessation of the Law, represented by Moses and Elijah, and the dread is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (where I have no doubt that no stone lie upon another in an erected configuration), in which since there has not been another built. To the Jews I believe the destruction of the Temple was the greatest hurt at that time, surpassing the destruction of their blessed City.

This site has the most commentators I've seen so far: http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/

 

[Randy]

No, (I/we/the church) don't know who the two witnesses will be. I would state they will be two born and raised at that time period (rev 11). No where does it state Moses and Elijah will come down from heaven and be those two witnesses. It states "two witnesses"...No names given.

1. Actually the coming of Elijah before the Day of the Lord is clearly stated in Scripture (Malachi 4:5,6): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
2. The miracles of the two prophets in Revelation 11 correspond to the miracles of Moses and Elijah as recorded in the OT.

Yeah and Jesus stated that was John. So the one in the future will also be like, (in the spirit of), Elijah but that doesn't mean the exact Elijah as was the case with John and what about Moses? I think its far more reasonable and certain to state the church doesn't know who they will be. (Their names as they will be christians) "in the city where their Lord was crucified"

Though I do believe the dreadful day of the Lord is the 2nd coming. Rev 16:15

 

[Jim Parker]

My friend Cgaviria - I believe you are sincere in your posts, but are you using a different Bible than the Protestant versions?

What difference would that make?

 

[netchaplain]

Hi JP - I can't remember why I asked that question.

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi JP - I can't remember why I asked that question.

Me either!! 2

iakov the fool




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