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The Number of his Name

The issue isn't the numbering of returning captives from exile! These numbers have nothing to do with the "666" of Revelation 13!

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Revelation 13:18 (NASB)

In the footnotes of virtually any good study Bible you find, this text is included:

"One early manuscript reads 616."

So the number isn't 666 or 667! The question is whose name can best fit the number 666 and/or 616!

That answer is here:

Nero Caesar fits the gematria code number "666." Using this code, his name would be rendered as "NRWN QSR." (NRWN QSR). The number values are:
N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200
which, when added together, equals 666.

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Of some related interest is the fact that if Nero’s name is written without the final "n" (i.e., the way it would occur to a Gentile to spell it in Hebrew), it yields the number 616 — which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament manuscripts. The most reasonable explanation for this variant is that it arose from the confusion over the final "n". [/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/beast.html[/FONT]

Pate, Haynes

“Nero’s infamous character merits the title of “beast applied to him by the seer of the Apocalypse (v.1). Revelation 13:1-6 gives the generic background of the beast, which is the roman empire of the first century, The seven heads correspond to the seven hills of Rome, while the ten horns allude to the Caesars of the first century, however one may number them (v.1). The blasphemous worship demanded by the beast distinctly reminds one of the imperial cult of the first century, and the war the beast wages on the saints cannot help but recall the intense persecutions Nero, and later Domitian, inflicted on Christians because they did not worship Caesar. Nero’s persecution of Christians from November AD 64 to June AD 68 could account, in part, for the forty-two months (or 3 ½ years) of oppression mentioned in Rev. 13:5. The reference in Revelation 13:11-15 to the beast of the land securing worship for the beast from the sea (Rome was across the sea from the place of the writing of the Apocalypse, Asia Minor) reminds one of the local priests of the imperial cult in Asia Minor whose task was to compel the people to offer a sacrifice to Caesar and proclaim him Lord. Megalomaniac that he was, Nero had coins minted in which he was called “almighty God†and “Savior.†Nero’s portrait also appears on coins as the god Apollo playing a lyre. While earlier emperors were proclaimed deities upon their deaths, Nero abandons all reserve and demanded divine honors while still alive (as did also Caligula before him, AD 37-41). Those who worshipped the emperor received a certificate or mark of approval – charagma, the same word used in Revelation 13:16. Furthermore, in the reign of Emperor Decius (AD 249-251), those who did not possess the certificate of sacrifice to Caesar couldn not pursue trades, a prohibition that conceivably goes back to Nero, reminding one of Revelation 13:17†(C Martin Pate and Calvin B. Haynes, Doomsday Delusions, 41-42)

Hank Hanegraaff (2004)

"John is saying to his readers that with wisdom and understanding they could discern the number of the Beast and the number of his name. If, in fact, the Beast was not around at that time, he would be have been giving them false information.. The beast is singularly Nero." (Voice of Reason 11/21)


“It is unbiblical to use the term ‘Antichrist’ for a present-day or future political ruler. The proper context is theological and pre-A. D. 70†(Gary DeMar, Last Days Madness, p.204).

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Rome/Monarchs/nero.html

Any other interpretation is simply folly.


???? Still BLIND Today???? There are so many ways to know who is the anti/christ today, that it is total bewilderment!!:( All one needs is to read the daily news print & watch it's recordings of TV. Rev. 17:1-5 has it ALL RIGHT THERE including vers 5!

And Christ's Words of Matt. 10... (and note that He was still there in these verses for End Time)
[17] But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
[18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
[19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
[21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, [[till the Son of man be come]].
[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
[25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?;)
[26] Fear them not therefore: [[for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
[27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops]].


Sure, it looks as if God will have to use the gentile news/casters for now, huh?:(
--Elijah
 
I know you are right about one thing, and I won't so readily dismiss the rest as some do.

Vessels are people, whether brass, gold, or clay
Just as mountains and hills are certain types of people


Look at Jesus' first miracle of turning water into wine, what is the significance of water poured into vessels? And turning it into wine? Not just that but the amount of water.

Also when he over turned the money changers tables and those the selling "spiritual helps" in the temple he also forbad any man to carry vessels through the temple.

Can anyone here see the scenery behind the seen?
Don't let others stop you keep digging, think about it more than once.
 
I forgot to give credit to that quote
The scenery behind the seen is from Oswald chambers

Elijah674 you forgot to underline: in this city,
Being that it is on a spiritual level and not a physical city
 
???? Still BLIND Today???? There are so many ways to know who is the anti/christ today, that it is total bewilderment!!:( All one needs is to read the daily news print & watch it's recordings of TV. Rev. 17:1-5 has it ALL RIGHT THERE including vers 5!
THE BOOK OF REVELATION WASN'T WRITTEN TO PEOPLE WITH TVS AND RADIOS!!!

I'll cite Hannegraff's words again for the comprehesionally challenged!

Hank Hanegraaff (2004)

"John is saying to his readers that with wisdom and understanding they could discern the number of the Beast and the number of his name. If, in fact, the Beast was not around at that time, he would be have been giving them false information.. The beast is singularly Nero." (Voice of Reason 11/21)

REVELATION WAS WRITTEN TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES OF ASIA: NOT US!!!

How many times and in how many ways must it be written before this sinks in?!?!?
 
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Comprehensionally challenged?

Comprehend this, before you start calling people retarded
Because they don't subscribe to your dear leader that made a proclamation in 2004


Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. (1 John 4:7, 8 KJV)
 
That is not how Nero's name is properly spelled.

It's only only 2 of Nero's names. The Number should apply to one's full name, or just one name, but just picking 2 at random is cheating.
 
Comprehensionally challenged?

If the shoe fits...

Comprehend this, before you start calling people retarded

Mental and emotional impairment are specific terms used to address the pathology formerly known as "retardation." One can be "comprehensionally challenged" without being mentally or emotionally impaired!

Just thought you should know that no one has been called "retarded" here!

Because they don't subscribe to your dear leader that made a proclamation in 2004

He's not my "dear leader." He made a point: one you should try to address before calling me "unchristian" for stressing it!
 
That is not how Nero's name is properly spelled.

Enlighten us with the proper Hebrew spelling of his name, then!

Should be easy to do for someone alleging to know what his name really was!
 
Either way, why do you try and discourage a person from studying?
Who's to say he won't come up with Nero as the Antichrist?

And being comprehensionally challenged would be mentally slow, or retarded.

Encourage people to study for themselves instead of trying to get them to follow another mans teachings, and discourage them from looking for themselves. Or as Christians do we try to turn people from looking at things for themselves?
That's a big part of what's wrong with the church today
 
Either way, why do you try and discourage a person from studying?

:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

Maybe you should actually spend time reading what I've written here before you make such ridiculous assertions!

Here's just one example of what I've written recently!

Hopefully, this study is providing people with the necessary tools to understand Revelation on their own.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40550&p=613686&viewfull=1#post613686

Now why would I write that if I didn't want people to study this stuff on their own???

My purpose here is to get people on the right track, not derail them!

The problem is, the way I see people "studying" Revelation is like they have a treasure map with clues that point to the Bahamas and they want to dig in the Aleutians! If you saw someone "searching" like that and knew better, wouldn't you want them to at least start digging in the right place???

I don't care what people believe, but if they're going to make wild-eyed claims about the end of the world, they had better be able to back them up!
 
Well I believe that the bible is the right place, if some one is seeking Christ with a pure heart then Christ will meet him, the same thing with truth. It's our job to encourage a person to keep going, to keep striving for the truth. Not to carry the vessel through the temple.

You did tell him it was unbiblical to even look at such a thing. Is that encouragement? Or discouragement?

I would dare to say that calling someone comprehensionally challenged is not encouragement, it's almost like calling someone a fool. Or how did Jesus put it? Raca?
 
The Greek Spelling is what's relevant, it numbers 616.
John was playing a numbers game called "gematria", using the letters of the Greek alphabet and their corresponding numeric values to identify Nero as it would have been spelled in Hebrew!

Hebrew doesn't have vowels!

Hence, the gematria code for the Latin "Nero Caesar" - translated to Hebrew (NRWN QSR) then encoded in the Greek alphabet appears this way (as noted in earlier post):

N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200

Thus, the Hebrew "NRWN QSR" quantified using the Greek numeric values of the letters equals 666 (six hundred sixty six)!

Take off the trailing "N" on "NRWN", and you subtract 50 from 666, which equals 616!

Now, using the same method John used for arriving at his gematria code for Nero's name (translating the Latin to Hebrew then applying Greek numeric values to it), please tell us how any other name adds up to both 666 and 616 while identifying the same person!
 
Well I believe that the bible is the right place, if some one is seeking Christ with a pure heart then Christ will meet him, the same thing with truth. It's our job to encourage a person to keep going, to keep striving for the truth. Not to carry the vessel through the temple.

You did tell him it was unbiblical to even look at such a thing. Is that encouragement? Or discouragement?

I would dare to say that calling someone comprehensionally challenged is not encouragement, it's almost like calling someone a fool. Or how did Jesus put it? Raca?

I'm sorry, but you have nothing to offer about me or my posts that reflect reality. We're done.
 
888 is the Value of Jesus in Greek, not the Hebrew in Greek letters, 666 is clearly a parallel to that.
 
The Apostle John, writing during the time of the first great Roman persecution of Christians, recorded in the Book of Revelations 13:18 that the number of the Beast was 666 and that this number was the number of a human being. Most ancient MSS (hand-written manuscripts) of the book of Revelation record 666 as this significant number while others manuscripts record the number as 616. Is it a coincidence that all the Roman numeral added together total 666 (excluding the symbol for 1,000 which was not a separate letter/ number but two "D"= 500 place back to back)? Is it also a coincidence that the gematria for Neron Caesar (an alternate Hebrew spelling of the Emperor's name in wide use in the 1st century AD) totals 666 while the Greek spelling of Nero Caesar totals 616?

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/GEMATRIA%20IN%20SCRIPTURE.htm

In fact we probably do know just what wisdom the author of Revelations intended to convey with that number. Yes, it's Roman, and it's numerals, but the numerals aren't Roman. The Roman is the emperor Nero; the numerals are letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Each letter has a numerical value: Aleph is 1, Beth is 2, and so on until 10, then count by tens till 100, then by hundreds till we run out of letters. Nero Caesar in Hebrew is NeRON QeiSaR; adding up the letters we get ``the number of the man'', 666.

http://www.math.harvard.edu/~elkies/mp666.html

8 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

9 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This would be completely ridiculous.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/revelation_written_before_70AD_Kiser.htm

Do you know 666 is Gematria for Nero Caesar?

Most scholars believe that 666 refers to Roman Emperor Nero (whose name, written in Aramaic, can be valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria.

It has nothing to do with events today or in the future.


http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100716112329AAzmq6X

Fortunately the work on this was already done a long time ago, and we don’t have to go scouring ancient manuscripts for names. If we take the Greek phrase “Nero Caesar” and transliterate it into Hebrew, it tuns out that the letters add up to, you guessed it, 666.

A couple pieces of information make this a very likely interpretation. First, a contemporary Aramaic (not Hebrew) document makes a similar calculation, and also arrives at 666 as his number. Second, there is a variant in several ancient copies of Revelation where 666 is replaced by 616. Why is this? If we take the Latin form of “Nero Cesar” and transliterate it into Hebrew, the letters adds up to that number. It seems clear that someone in the ancient world was making the connection between this passage and Nero through gematria, most likely under the influence of the Greek to Hebrew connection.

http://www.fellowtravelerblog.com/2010/12/09/666-decoded-you-heard-it-here-first/

The only problem with Nero as the beast of revelation 13 - as I see it - is that he doesn't tickle the itching ears of the terminally ignorant and misguided. :bigfrown
 
What I would wonder is, why polycarp, and irenaeus never confirm that Nero was the anti-Christ, we're there any others who were taught by John or down his line that did teach it. And did they confirm that Satan was indeed in the fiery pit?

Second I wonder why John would leave such a dire warning such as these in revelations, knowing the book was very symbolic

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
(Revelation 13:10 KJV)

He had to have known this.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (Ephesians 6:17 KJV)
 
What I would wonder is, why polycarp, and irenaeus never confirm that Nero was the anti-Christ, we're there any others who were taught by John or down his line that did teach it.

You're the one fired up about self-study. Please, find out for yourself and enlighten us all.

And did they confirm that Satan was indeed in the fiery pit?

Didn't know Satan was the topic of this thread. Mind addressing the topic that has been put before us first?
 
I'm sorry, but you have nothing to offer about me or my posts that reflect reality. We're done.

Honestly Storm, come on, there's no need for that attitude, its nothing even remotely Christ like.

I read your posts and you make good, interesting reading, but you let yourself down now and again with such a lack of humilty. I don't understand why you feel it necessary to act in such a manner towards people? Its like you've got an anger problem, or get frustrated people don't see things your way.

We're all doing our best man. I'm far from perfect but I would encourage you to be more humble. Honestly, I'm speaking now as hopefully a friend, as a Christian brother.... just ease up a little bit, all that matters is Christ, we're just trying to piece it all together.
 
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