The only Divine Worshipper of the Only True God

[SonByAdoption]

Jesus the Son of God is my God so I believe what he said. He said that he is God’s only begotten Son which means He is younger than God the Father and related to Him and originated from Him and equally Divine to Him like all children originated from their parents and have the same nature as their parents. He is also a separate being from God the Father. The preincarnate Christ did not require two parents because God the Father had Him all by Himself. The preincarnate Christ was not born a baby knowing nothing but He was born as a fully grown Divine being all knowing and all powerful “the express image of (the Father’s) personâ€Hebrews 1:3 and He did not need any help when He created everything that was created with His own hands.

God the Father is the “Only True God†according to Jesus in John 17:3. Now because Jesus is a separate being other than the Only True God does this make Him a lesser God than His Father. Of course not. He’s equal in Divine nature to His Father but His Father is His God. He owes His divine uncreated and almighty self existent life to His Father and so He worships Him. So because God the Father is the only being who everyone else in the universe worships including His Divine Son, He is the Only true God. Paul and the early Christians had never heard of any trinity three in one God. They knew that the Father is the Only One God meaning that He is the only being who is worshiped by everyone else including His divine Son“But for us, "There is only one God, the Father. Everything came from him, and we live for him. There is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Everything came into being through him, and we live because of him."1st Corinthians 8:6 God’s Word Translation “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.â€Ephesians 4:6

 

[Free]

The doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that the Bible reveals about God.

 

[Danus]

SonByAdoption, can you clarify your position a little better? Since this is the A&T section, I assume your building a case on the trinity, but your position is a little unclear. Are you apposing the trinity? Can you frame your argument a little better?

 

[SonByAdoption]

The doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that the Bible reveals about God.

The Bible writers had never even heard of any trinity. Your statement of beliefs is probably pro trinitarian and starts off something like this [I believe in One God,the Father Son and Holy Spirit]

Please compare that to what the apostle Paul says that the Christian church believes back in his day.

" yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist." 1st Corinthians 8:6 Weymoth New Testament

The Christian church during the Aposltles day was clearly antitrinitarian.

God the Father is clearly the one God over all and all includes Jesus Christ.

God the Father gave birth to a Son equally Divine to Himself. His only begotten Son created the universe. His only begotten Son was incarnated and became a human setting a perfect example of how to worship God the Father. Jesus died ceasing to consciously exist for three days something a trinitarian Jesus could never do.

Jesus never worshiped a trinity but instead worshiped God the Father as the "Only True God"John 17:3 The God who is God over everyone else including His Divine Son."God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!"1st Peter !:3

Isn't it much better to follow Jesus example worshiping the Father as the Only True God instead of worshiping a trinity that is not even biblical?

 

[farouk]

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 to 17, are full of the truth of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So it John's First Epistle.

See also the end of Matthew 28.

Also, Romans 8.

(And so forth.)

 

[Free]

The Bible writers had never even heard of any trinity.

Maybe, maybe not.

Your statement of beliefs is probably pro trinitarian and starts off something like this [I believe in One God,the Father Son and Holy Spirit]

Please compare that to what the apostle Paul says that the Christian church believes back in his day.

" yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist." 1st Corinthians 8:6

Do you believe that there was a time when the Son did not exist?

The Christian church during the Aposltles day was clearly antitrinitarian.

Not at all. Again, the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that the Bible reveals about God. This will come out as the discussion continues.

God the Father is clearly the one God over all and all includes Jesus Christ.

Why do you then use the term "God the Father"? If there is no other God, then there is no use for "God the Father."

God the Father gave birth to a Son equally Divine to Himself.

Impossible. The Son cannot be equally divine to the Father unless the Son is just as much God as the Father is God. If the Son is created, then he cannot, by definition, be God.

His only begotten Son created the universe. His onlybegotten Son was incarnated and became a human setting a perfect example of how to worship God the Father. Jesus died ceasing to contumaciously exist for three days something a trinitarian Jesus could never do.

What do you think of the common belief that Jesus ministered to those "in prison" between his death and resurrection?

Jesus never worshiped a trinity but instead worshiped God the Father as the "Only True God"John 17:3 The God who is God over everyone else including His Divine Son."God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!"1st Peter !:3

Isn't it much better to follow Jesus example worshiping the Father as the Only True God instead of worshiping a trinity that is not even biblical?

The doctrine of the Trinity is certainly biblical and Jesus worshiped the Father.

 

[SonByAdoption]

SonByAdoption, can you clarify your position a little better? Since this is the A&T section, I assume your building a case on the trinity, but your position is a little unclear. Are you apposing the trinity? Can you frame your argument a little better?

Hello Good afternoon Danus.

I am so happy that you replied. I don't understand why you think that my position is unclear or why you think that my argument against the trinity needs to be framed better. I wish you had had a little more time to so that you could have maybe cut and paste a sentence or two that you thought was confusing and commented on that so that I would have a better idea on what you're talking about but that's quite alright. I know that you're probably busy witnessing to alot of people so maybe you didn't have time to do that.

I am antitrinitarian and pro sonship of Christ.

God the Father was alone and then God the Father gave birth to the preincarnate Christ. This only begotten Son created the universe. like Hebrews 1:2 says

One Divine being gave birth to another Divine being. That makes two Divine beings in the universe.

Even though God's Son is equally Divine to His Father and the bible calls Jesus God atlease 5 times in the Bible still the Bible makes it clear that God the Father is the One God of the universe. Because He is the being that is worshiped by everyone else including His Divine Son.

God the Father is the one God of all in verses like Ephesians 4:6 and 1st Corinthians 8:6

It's God the Father's job to be the One God of all the other beings in the universe.
It's Jesus Christ's job to be the only Divine worshiper of the One God.

If what I said in this post isn't true and Jesus Christ isn't actually the Divine Son of God the Father but actually part of the same being as God the Father like trinitarians teach than what would we do with all those Bible verses that say that God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ.

Like what Jesus said to Joshua in Joshua 5 "I am Captain of the Armies of Yahweh" He identified himself as someone different being that Yahweh because the Divine Son is a separate being and has a separate job than His Father.

Jesus Christ is the Only Divine Offspring and Only Divine worshiper of God the Father.

 

[Danus]

SonByAdoption, Thank you. I did have some sentences to point out, but no need. From the responses so far I was able to get a little more, and I thank you for clarifying a little more directly.

I subscribe to the trinity of God myself. I will admit that I do not comprehend it, but I do apprehend it. This is to say I believe in God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit in equality, but one God.

I will ask one question; how does the spirit of God fit in for you? This is to say, do you view the spirit of God as God, and if not how do you see it?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Please take off your trinitarian goggles,read John 14.Jesus is Comforter.

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 to 17, are full of the truth of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So it John's First Epistle.

See also the end of Matthew 28.

Also, Romans 8.

(And so forth.)

Hello Farouk. Your signature says something about John 3:16 having alot of great theology that people can learn from.

My prayer is that one day Trinitarian Christians and Jehovah's Witness Christians will put down their false beliefs about Jesus and actually belive John 3:16 that God the Father had an Only Born Son that He sent into the world.

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 to 17, are full of the truth of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I took the time to read all of the scripture references that you gave me and I'm so glad I did.

In John 13 the Divine Offspring of God the Father actually washes His disicples feet and then He says that His disciples should follow His example in John 13:15.

Might I suggest that we not only follow His example in foot washing but also in His belief system as well.

Jesus believes in and worships a single individual as the God and King of Heaven and Earth and this is what He taught His disciples to believe in and He called Him Father not trinity. Remember the Lord's prayer? It's the Father's will that is done in heaven not trinity.God the Father is the only Divine being with the position of One God of all. God and Christ are equal in nature but they are not equal in position and they are not equal in age. The Junior worships His Father.

Many trinitarian Christians believe that the Comforter is a seperate person other than Christ because of a single verse that they pluck out of John 14 which is John 14:16. If they ever took off their trinitarian goggles for a minute and actually read the verses after this than they would see that Jesus is actually talking about Himself being another Comforter.

John 14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;

Trinitarians say see He said another Comforter. That means someone other than Jesus. Wait a minute lets not get too hasty. Let's not just take this one verse out of context like cults do. Let's actually read the other verses and see if Jesus is talking about someone else or Himself.

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus is the one that that world didn't know. But the disciples knew Him because He lived with them and He promised that He would one day be in them. And then in the next verse He makes it very clear who the Comforter is when He says.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Very clear that Jesus is the Comforter

19Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you see me: because I live, you shall live also.

20At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

See He promised that He would one day be in His disciples.

21He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas said unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loves me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Jesus promised that both God the Father and His Only Born Son would come and make their homes in our hearts.
He only mentioned two Divine beings.

Just like John 1:1,2 In the Beginning was The Word who was God and The God who He was with. Look at John 1:1,2 in the original Greek. There are two "Thes" in the original that difereniated the word who was God from "The God" who He was with.

My point is that John says that there was only two Divine beings in the beginning later on in the chapter he names them by saying that One was the Only Begotten from the Father. No 3rd being mentioned.

Like in Johns Epistle He says that Christians only fellowshipped with The Father and His Son. Well then they must have not known of any being named the H.S.

Obviously Bible Writers beleived in a different H.S. than trinitarians belived in.

Remember John writes in revelation about the New heaven and earth and says that God and the Lamb are going to be the light of it or something like that. Well no 3rd being mentioned.

Remember Zechariah said the councel of peace is between them both. Well that's only two not three.

How about when Jesus gave the secret to eternal life in John 17:3 is to know the Only true God and Jesus Christ who He sent. No third being.

Remember how Jesus said that the Christians were going to get persecuted and killed in the last days because by other Christians because they don't know God the Father and they don't know Jesus. See only two divine beings mentioned because those are the only ones that exist.

Don't forget the Apostle Pauls statement of beliefs in 1st Corinthians 8:6 how He belives in One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. only two divine beings.

And all the N.T. creation accounts like Hebrews 1:2 God made world by His Son and Ephesians 3:9 in KJV God created universe by JC. Only two Divine beings.

Let's not forget that Paul said in one of His epistles I charge you by God, I charge you by Christ and I charge you by the elect angels.

Now if Paul believed in a 3rd Divine being than why would He skip over him and go right to the angels?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Jesus worshipped the Father as King of the Universe.So did disciples.so should we

Hello Free, Good Morning.

You quoted me saying that the Bible writers had never even heard of any trinity and your reponse was.

Maybe, maybe not..

Please let me clarify that I was talking about a Jewish or a Christian trinity. I'm sure the disciples knew about the pagan trinities.

But did Jesus ever teach them that a trinity three in one God ruled the universe? No He never did. He always taught that a single individual being that He claimed was His Father was the single supreme ruler of the universe.

Remember the Lord's Prayer? The Father's will be done in heaven and earth.

Remember Jesus parables where He talks about the King and His Son. The Universe is a monarchy and God the Father is the King.

Trinitarians teaching that there is a three in one commity named the trinity that have equal authority is total contrary to Jesus teaching.

Do you believe that there was a time when the Son did not exist?.

Jesus preexisted the creation of time because Jesus created time along with everything else that was created.

God the Father prexisted the birth of His Divine Son.

I heard a preacher say one time that all the humans alive today existed in Adam's genes when the Preincarnate Christ created Adam.

So maybe even though there was a time before time that God the Father was alone before the birth of His Son this doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist. He could have existed in His Father's Divine genes.

Not at all. Again, the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that the Bible reveals about God. This will come out as the discussion continues...

I asked you in my last reply to you to make a simple comparison between the Apostle Paul's statement of faith 1st Corinthians 8:6 But for us there is One God, the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ vs a trinitarians statement of faith I believe in One God the Father,Son, and Holyspirit.

Your Trinity God and Pauls God in 1st Corin 8:6 are totally oppisite from eachother but you keep ignoring this fact and skipping over this Bible verse altogether. In your next reply please respond that you have read 1st Corin 8:6 and please comment on this verse.

Because you keep making the statement that the trinity is biblical so when someone shows you some verses that don't agree with your statement please just don't ignore these verses.

Paul said faith comes by hearing the word of God. He didn't say that faith comes by ignoring it.

You quoted me making a biblical statement that God the Father is the One God of all and that all that He is God over includes Jesus Christ and your response.

Why do you then use the term "God the Father"? If there is no other God, then there is no use for "God the Father.".

I never said that there is only one God. One God gave birth to a Divine Son. That makes two Gods. One God can't be seen because He dwells behind the light no man can approach unto. But the other God was seen by Abraham wresteled with Jacob and was seen by Moses and walked and talked to Adam and Eve after they sinned. One God only hath immortality but the other one emptied Himself from His immortality so that He could be incarnated as a mortal man and actually die ceasing to be consious for three days. One God can't be tempted but the other one emptied himself of His divine powers so that He could be tempted in all points just like we are so that He could help us and be our Comforter.

Please listen carefully. I didn't say that there was only One God. I said that there is only One God of all.

The Divine Son of the Father might be God of all created beings. But He is not His own God.

God the Father is the One God of all.

"one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.""Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."Ephesians 4:6 and Ephesians 1:3

Saying that the Father is alone as the One God of all including God of Jesus Christ is completely biblical as I have just proven with these 2 verses in Ephesians.

You asked an interesting question. Why is God the Father called God the Father?

It's because He is the Originator of everything. He gave birth to a Son. His Son created everything that is created.

But for us, "There is only one God, the Father. Everything came from him, and we live for him. There is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Everything came into being through him, and we live because of him."1st Corinthians 8:6 God's word translation 1995

You quoted me saying that God the Father gave birth to an equally Divine Son and your response

Impossible. The Son cannot be equally divine to the Father unless the Son is just as much God as the Father is God. If the Son is created, then he cannot, by definition, be God..

I never said that Jesus was created. I said that He was born from the Father. He inherited His Father's Divine and uncreated nature so He is as much Divine and the Father is Divine and equal to Him just like you are as much human as your parents are human.

Do you think it is impossible for God the Father to give birth to a Son? Is it because He doesn't have a wife or because He is not a woman?

Remember that Jesus said that all things are possible with God. He didn't need any help. He's God. He decided to give birth to a Son and it was done. And His Son created the universe like Hebrews 1:2 says God made the worlds by His Son.

God the Father claimed to have a Son at Jesus' baptism and at His transfiguration.

It is impossible for God to lie but trinitarians make God a liar with their doctrine.

He said He has a Son and Son means child of a parent. Meaning the Father is older than the Son and that they are related and that God is the one who gave birth to His Son.

But trinitarians say that Son is only a title and they say that he was never born from the Father and that they are not different ages and they are not related but they always existed with eachother and they were just playing a role.

I'd rather believe God the Father's statement that Jesus is His actual Son than believe your man made trinitarian doctrine that says that the preincarnate Christ was never born from His Father.

What do you think of the common belief that Jesus ministered to those "in prison" between his death and resurrection?.

That belief is not so common. There are many trinitarian immortal soul believing christians who believe that is not talking about Jesus actually preaching to literal dead people. Remember that verse that says that it is given man once to die and then the judgement. There's no purgatory and no 2nd chances for those that die unsaved. I made an internet search about this verse and this one pastor was saying that the dead spirits in prison were the unsaved people that were living in that day. Jesus died and then resurrected became omnipresent so that His spirit could be in all of our hearts.

The doctrine of the Trinity is certainly biblical and Jesus worshiped the Father.

Those statements don't even make sense in the same sentence because they are totally oppisite of eachother.

Not only did Jesus worship the Father as the only sumpreme ruler of the Universe "Only Potentate"1st tim 6:16 but Jesus taught the disciples to do this as well.

Not only is the trinity doctrine unbiblical it is the total oppisite of what the Bible teaches and what Jesus teaches.

The Biblical Jesus worshipped the Father because the Father is His God. Jesus said He was the I am meaning that He has life in himself.

Jesus said that as the Father Has life in himself [Self Existence] so has He given the Son to have life in himself [Self Existence]John 5:26

So there are two I Ams but one of the I Ams owes His Divine Self existent life to the other one.

 

[SonByAdoption]

Truly our fellowship is with God the Father and His Divine Offspring. 2 Divine beings

SonByAdoption, Thank you. I did have some sentences to point out, but no need. From the responses so far I was able to get a little more, and I thank you for clarifying a little more directly.

I subscribe to the trinity of God myself. I will admit that I do not comprehend it, but I do apprehend it. This is to say I believe in God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit in equality, but one God.

I will ask one question; how does the spirit of God fit in for you? This is to say, do you view the spirit of God as God, and if not how do you see it?

I subscribe to the trinity of God myself. I will admit that I do not comprehend it, but I do apprehend it. This is to say I believe in God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit in equality, but one God.

You believe in One God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Apostle Paul wrote that he and his Christian church believed in One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ as you can see in 1st Corinthians 8:6.

1st John 4:9 says that God sent His only Born Son into the world. Meaning that God the Father already had and only born Son before the incarnation.

Now if One God has an only born Son than how can they be the same God as your trinitarian teaching teaches? Are you and your mother the same human?

I will ask one question; how does the spirit of God fit in for you? This is to say, do you view the spirit of God as God, and if not how do you see it?

For me the Holy Sprit as trinitarians believe it does not exist. God the Father has a Divine Form and He sits on His throne in heaven surounded by thousands of angels but His mind is not just in his head like created beings mind is stuck in their heads. God the Father's mind is omnipresent. His mind fills up the universe. Of course when the preincarnate Christ was born with all the Divine powers of His Father. So Christ also had an omnipresent mind before His incarnation when He gave up all His divine powers.

Peter said that the Spirit of Christ inspired the Prophets to write the Bible.

The Apostle Paul wrote in his letter to the Ephesians that after Christ's ascension he began to fill all things which I believe means that Christ got His omnipresece back.

Paul says in galations that God sends the spirit of His son in our hearts crying abba Father..

We have both the Omnipresent mind of the Father and the Omnipresent mind of His Divine Offspring in our hearts and this is what Jesus promised in John 14:23

Please compare with John 17:3 We have to know The Only True God and His Only true Son to be saved.

Please compare with what John said in His first epistle about who the Christian church fellowships with. He only mentions the Father and His Son.

And the Apostle Pauls statement of beliefs says that He believes in One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. No 3rd Divine being.

Maybe you should reconsider your position and believe in something more biblical.

Because your spirit is yours and you were made in His image. The Father's spirit is the Fathers.

Jesus said one time that in the last days we would be brought before judges and don't think about what you would say because it won't be you that speak but the Holy Spirit will speak in you. In a paralell gospel Jesus calls it the spirit of your Father.

Therefore the Holy Spirit must be the Spirit of your Father.

There's a verse in Isaiah that says who has directed the spirit of Yahweh.

When Paul quotes this verse in the N.T. twice he was Divinely inspired to substitute the greek word for mind for the hebrew word for spirit.

So the Spirit of the Father is the mind of the Father.

Like the one Bible verse that says that Jesus preceived in His spirit what some people were thinking in their hearts.

His spirit is His mind where He preceived things.

The Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and not a seperate person.

Jesus is our comforter. Both of their omnipresnet minds are in our hearts as John 14:23 says. Jesus replied"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

 

[farouk]

Sir:

You are rejecting the teaching of John chapters 13 to 17, which speak copiously of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as do many other New Testament passages.

My suggestion is that it would be futile for people to try to get their minds around your somewhat complex, alternative propositions, because your starting point seems to be one of not accepting this Biblical truth in the first place.

 

[Free]

Re: Jesus worshipped the Father as King of the Universe.So did disciples.so should we

Please let me clarify that I was talking about a Jewish or a Christian trinity. I'm sure the disciples knew about the pagan trinities.

I knew what you were talking about which is why I gave the answer I did.

But did Jesus ever teach them that a trinity three in one God ruled the universe? No He never did. He always taught that a single individual being that He claimed was His Father was the single supreme ruler of the universe.

Remember the Lord's Prayer? The Father's will be done in heaven and earth.

Remember Jesus parables where He talks about the King and His Son. The Universe is a monarchy and God the Father is the King.

And yet Jesus claimed equality with the Father, he implicitly claimed to be God.

Trinitarians teaching that there is a three in one commity named the trinity that have equal authority is total contrary to Jesus teaching.

We'll get to that. There are some things that need to be clarified, which I will do in the post that follows.

Jesus preexisted the creation of time because Jesus created time along with everything else that was created.

If Jesus created time, then he himself was not created, as several passages show. As soon as something is created, time begins.

I asked you in my last reply to you to make a simple comparison between the Apostle Paul's statement of faith 1st Corinthians 8:6 But for us there is One God, the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ vs a trinitarians statement of faith I believe in One God the Father,Son, and Holyspirit.

Your Trinity God and Pauls God in 1st Corin 8:6 are totally oppisite from eachother but you keep ignoring this fact and skipping over this Bible verse altogether. In your next reply please respond that you have read 1st Corin 8:6 and please comment on this verse.

I will comment and note that this ends up being the problem with this discussion--it ends up being a fruitless exercise in proof-texting which generally leads nowhere. Now, certainly Scripture must back up what is said, but the sum of the parts must be in agreement with the whole. And I maintain, that the doctrine of the Trinity is the only doctrine of God where this is the case. Your case has already fallen apart because the parts, the proof-texts you have given, do not make sense of the whole, there is no agreement there. I will show this to be the case as we progress.

Let's look at 1 Cor 8:6:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Firstly, if we understand this to say that only the Father is God, then it follows that the Father cannot be Lord. Secondly, if we understand that "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternal preexistence of God, then it follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternal preexistence of Jesus. Thirdly, in context, Paul is speaking of the many "so-called gods" and lords:

1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— (ESV)

I believe this is Paul expanding on the Jewish Shema in Deut 6:4:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

The Shema is a call to the monotheism of Judaism--a central doctrine of Christianity as well which contradicts your position--and here in 1 Cor 8:6 Paul is also making a claim to monotheism, that the one true God is the only God.

Because you keep making the statement that the trinity is biblical so when someone shows you some verses that don't agree with your statement please just don't ignore these verses.

Paul said faith comes by hearing the word of God. He didn't say that faith comes by ignoring it.

I'm not ignoring anything. I simply didn't have the time to address them. However, none of them disagree with the Trinity. If you think they do, then you really don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity, which is perhaps why you disagree with it.

You quoted me making a biblical statement that God the Father is the One God of all and that all that He is God over includes Jesus Christ and your response.

I never said that there is only one God. One God gave birth to a Divine Son. That makes two Gods. One God can't be seen because He dwells behind the light no man can approach unto. But the other God was seen by Abraham wresteled with Jacob and was seen by Moses and walked and talked to Adam and Eve after they sinned. One God only hath immortality but the other one emptied Himself from His immortality so that He could be incarnated as a mortal man and actually die ceasing to be consious for three days. One God can't be tempted but the other one emptied himself of His divine powers so that He could be tempted in all points just like we are so that He could help us and be our Comforter.

Please listen carefully. I didn't say that there was only One God. I said that there is only One God of all.

And there you have it. You have denied a fundamental and central doctrine of both Judaism and Christianity, monotheism. You are a polytheist and that goes against Scripture (all from the ESV):

Isa 43:10-11, 10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6-8, 6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. 7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. 8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Isaiah 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,


You say there are two Gods but the Bible says there is only one.

The Divine Son of the Father might be God of all created beings. But He is not His own God.

Of course not. The Father isn't is own God either.

God the Father is the One God of all.

"one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.""Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."Ephesians 4:6 and Ephesians 1:3

Saying that the Father is alone as the One God of all including God of Jesus Christ is completely biblical as I have just proven with these 2 verses in Ephesians.

But you divorcing these passages from the rest of Scripture, hence the main problem with proof-texting.

You asked an interesting question. Why is God the Father called God the Father?

It's because He is the Originator of everything. He gave birth to a Son. His Son created everything that is created.

But for us, "There is only one God, the Father. Everything came from him, and we live for him. There is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Everything came into being through him, and we live because of him."1st Corinthians 8:6 God's word translation 1995

Well you seem to have shot yourself in the foot. You bolded and underlined "Everything came from him," as proof that the Father is "the Originator of everything," but for to do the same for the Son, "Everything came into being through him." You even go so far as to state "His Son created everything that is created."

This is the dilemma for your position: If the Son created everything that is created, which you and I are both in agreement on, then it logically follows that the Son himself cannot be created or that statement is false.

You quoted me saying that God the Father gave birth to an equally Divine Son and your response

I never said that Jesus was created. I said that He was born from the Father. He inherited His Father's Divine and uncreated nature so He is as much Divine and the Father is Divine and equal to Him just like you are as much human as your parents are human.

If the Father "gave birth" to the Son, the Son is created. "Uncreated nature" cannot be inherited, that is nonsense. How can something that did not exist at one point inherit a nature which has always existed? Something that has an uncreated nature has, by definition, always existed.

And here we have another contradiction in your position. You previously stated: "Trinitarians teaching that there is a three in one commity named the trinity that have equal authority is total contrary to Jesus teaching." But you just stated above: "He is as much Divine and the Father is Divine and equal to Him."

Is the Son equal to the Father or not?

It is impossible for God to lie but trinitarians make God a liar with their doctrine.

Be careful with such accusations. It could very well be your position that is the false one.

He said He has a Son and Son means child of a parent. Meaning the Father is older than the Son and that they are related and that God is the one who gave birth to His Son.

But trinitarians say that Son is only a title and they say that he was never born from the Father and that they are not different ages and they are not related but they always existed with eachother and they were just playing a role.

I'd rather believe God the Father's statement that Jesus is His actual Son than believe your man made trinitarian doctrine that says that the preincarnate Christ was never born from His Father.

Where in the Bible does it say that the Father "decided to give birth to a Son and it was done"? You need to provide proof or it may be your doctrine that is man-made.

 

[Free]

Re: Jesus worshipped the Father as King of the Universe.So did disciples.so should we

Those statements don't even make sense in the same sentence because they are totally oppisite of eachother.

Not only did Jesus worship the Father as the only sumpreme ruler of the Universe "Only Potentate"1st tim 6:16 but Jesus taught the disciples to do this as well.

Not only is the trinity doctrine unbiblical it is the total oppisite of what the Bible teaches and what Jesus teaches.

The Biblical Jesus worshipped the Father because the Father is His God. Jesus said He was the I am meaning that He has life in himself.

Jesus said that as the Father Has life in himself [Self Existence] so has He given the Son to have life in himself [Self Existence]John 5:26

So there are two I Ams but one of the I Ams owes His Divine Self existent life to the other one.

Apart from your continued insistence on the heresy of polytheism, some things need to be clarified. One of the biggest problems in discussions on the Trinity is not only a lack in understanding a basic definition of the Trinity, but that there are two distinct ways in which we must think of the Trinity (as found in James R. White's The Forgotten Trinity):

Basic definition of the Trinity:

"Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (White, p 26)

Foundation One: Monotheism: There Is Only One God.
Foundation Two: There Are Three Divine Persons.
Foundation Three: The Persons Are Coequal and Coeternal. (White, p 28)


Ontological vs Economic Trinity:

The Ontological Trinity is the Trinity as it exists in and of itself; that is, how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all relate to each other. This is really what the basic definition of the Trinity given above is talking about and to what most people are referring to when they mention the Trinity.

The Economic Trinity is how the Trinity relates to creation. This involves a degree of subordination between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and would be correctly referred to as economic subordination. This is not to be confused with subordinationism, which is the belief that the Son always has been subordinate to the Father, in nature and being. It is very important to note that economic subordination, or a difference in function, does not indicate an inferiority of nature.

The ontological and economic ideas of the Trinity are absolutely essential to understanding all the various passages referring the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Almost every proof-text that gets posted as proof against the Trinity fails to take into account the economic Trinity, how the Trinity relates to Creation.

 

[Danus]

Re: Truly our fellowship is with God the Father and His Divine Offspring. 2 Divine be

You believe in One God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Apostle Paul wrote that he and his Christian church believed in One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ as you can see in 1st Corinthians 8:6.

1st John 4:9 says that God sent His only Born Son into the world. Meaning that God the Father already had and only born Son before the incarnation.

Now if One God has an only born Son than how can they be the same God as your trinitarian teaching teaches? Are you and your mother the same human?



For me the Holy Sprit as trinitarians believe it does not exist. God the Father has a Divine Form and He sits on His throne in heaven surounded by thousands of angels but His mind is not just in his head like created beings mind is stuck in their heads. God the Father's mind is omnipresent. His mind fills up the universe. Of course when the preincarnate Christ was born with all the Divine powers of His Father. So Christ also had an omnipresent mind before His incarnation when He gave up all His divine powers.

Peter said that the Spirit of Christ inspired the Prophets to write the Bible.

The Apostle Paul wrote in his letter to the Ephesians that after Christ's ascension he began to fill all things which I believe means that Christ got His omnipresece back.

Paul says in galations that God sends the spirit of His son in our hearts crying abba Father..

We have both the Omnipresent mind of the Father and the Omnipresent mind of His Divine Offspring in our hearts and this is what Jesus promised in John 14:23

Please compare with John 17:3 We have to know The Only True God and His Only true Son to be saved.

Please compare with what John said in His first epistle about who the Christian church fellowships with. He only mentions the Father and His Son.

And the Apostle Pauls statement of beliefs says that He believes in One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. No 3rd Divine being.

Maybe you should reconsider your position and believe in something more biblical.

Because your spirit is yours and you were made in His image. The Father's spirit is the Fathers.

Jesus said one time that in the last days we would be brought before judges and don't think about what you would say because it won't be you that speak but the Holy Spirit will speak in you. In a paralell gospel Jesus calls it the spirit of your Father.

Therefore the Holy Spirit must be the Spirit of your Father.

There's a verse in Isaiah that says who has directed the spirit of Yahweh.

When Paul quotes this verse in the N.T. twice he was Divinely inspired to substitute the greek word for mind for the hebrew word for spirit.

So the Spirit of the Father is the mind of the Father.

Like the one Bible verse that says that Jesus preceived in His spirit what some people were thinking in their hearts.

His spirit is His mind where He preceived things.

The Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and not a seperate person.

Jesus is our comforter. Both of their omnipresnet minds are in our hearts as John 14:23 says. Jesus replied"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Thank you for sharing your honest view on this important doctrine, SonByAdoption.

I can fully see the points you are making and I can see how people might be in agreement with you on this. However, I would urge you to consider it more deeply if there is any room left in your view.

It is difficult to understand the trinity. As I said earlier, I don't comprehend the trinity, but I do apprehend it. While the bible does not specifically say point to the word "Trinity", it does clearly describe it. There are tons of scriptures that do not reconcile with the view that you have laid out and you have added logic based on your own assumptions in your view that do not square with the bible.

"Because the word trinity is never found in the Bible some wonder about whether this is a biblical doctrine or not, but the absence of a term used to describe a doctrine does not necessarily mean the term is not biblical. The issue is, does the term accurately reflect what the Scripture teaches? In reality, due to the incomprehensible nature of the truth this term reflects, some believe it is a poor word to describe exactly what the Bible teaches us about this truth concerning God. When anyone studies a doctrine like this, reads about it in a theology book, or in an article like this one, it may appear that the writer is saying, “Here are the doctrines we believe, and this is what you must believe, so believe them!†But as Ryrie points out, “If that’s the case it is only because you are looking at the results of someone’s study, not the processâ€1 that led to their position on a particular doctrine." - http://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god

There is a lot more to understanding the trinity then just a few verses. It has to be taken as a biblical whole. The idea that God simply "had a son" and the son shared divinity with God, but was not God, leaves us with a huge problem, that we can easily solve with what the bible actually says of Jesus Christ.

We can say that this trinity doctrine is just something passed down and that people simply believe it because they don't read the bible, but that's not good enough to say since people who do read the bible clearly see it also.

I had problems with the trinity at first. It did not make sense and when I read the bible at first it seemed clear to me that Jesus was the offspring of God, but perhaps not God himself. And, it's an old argument to question how God could prey to himself and to read some verses at face value it seems to say Jesus is just the son and so on, the same questions, verses and argument you presented, but a full understanding suggest a lot more, and it's impossible to convey that understanding to anyone in a few short paragraphs.

In any case, we can trade scripture till the cows come home, but the fact is the bible does not negate the doctrine of the trinity. One God manifest in three forms; God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit.

Earlier you suggested that only wayward Christians and Jehovah witnesses believe the trinity. I've no idea where you got that, because Jehovah whiteness do not follow the doctrine of the trinity at all.But, they do follow practically the same understanding you laid out.

I thought you where part of the watch tower group in reading your understanding. Are you not?

My prayer is that one day Trinitarian Christians and Jehovah's Witness Christians will put down their false beliefs about Jesus and actually belive John 3:16 that God the Father had an Only Born Son that He sent into the world.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe there is a God who is the Creator and the most powerful individual in the universe. But they have some different beliefs from those religions. They say God explained in the Bible that his name is Jehovah (which is a translation of the Hebrew letters "YHWH") and they believe it is important that people know that name. They believe that Jesus Christ is God's son, and the holy spirit is the power that God can use, or let other people use, to help his purposes. They do not believe in the Trinity.[12] They believe the Bible is a book that God wrote with the help of humans, and it is therefore completely true and the best guide to how people should live. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses#What_they_believe

 

[SonByAdoption]

The Holy Spirit= Father's mind. Mark 13:11,Mat 10:20,Romans 11;34

Sir:
You are rejecting the teaching of John chapters 13 to 17, which speak copiously of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as do many other New Testament passages.

My suggestion is that it would be futile for people to try to get their minds around your somewhat complex, alternative propositions, because your starting point seems to be one of not accepting this Biblical truth in the first place.

Happy Sabbath Farouk.

Sir:
You are rejecting the teaching of John chapters 13 to 17, which speak copiously of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as do many other New Testament passages.

I am not rejecting any biblical teachings.

The Bible does talk about God the Father who is the One God/Supreme Ruler of the Universe. The Bible also talks His equally Divine Only Born Offspring who is 2nd in command of the universe.

The Bible also describes the Holy Spirit which is not a person but the mind of the Father. Your spirit is yours which is your mind in your head. The Father's spirit is His mind which is in His head except that because He is a Divine being, His mind is not limited to His head and is omnipresent.

" ...for it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit."For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:20

"Who has known the mind of the Lord?...Romans 11:34

My suggestion is that it would be futile for people to try to get their minds around your somewhat complex, alternative propositions, because your starting point seems to be one of not accepting this Biblical truth in the first place.

My Christian beliefs are Biblical and very simple. The trinity doctrine is the teaching that is unbiblical and very complex.

Since you wrote me giving people a suggestion about me. Let me write you giving you and the other readers a suggestion.

Put down your manmade trinity doctrine and pick up the Bible and believe what the Bible says.

God the Father said He had a Son. That is so simple and easy to believe. We've all heard the story about Christ's baptism right? We all heard what God the Father said right?

And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."Matthew 3:17

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to believe that Jesus is the Son of God but they actually don't. They say that he is a son like all the creations of God are called sons and he was never born from God and is not related to God and does not have the same Divine nature as God Himself has.

Trinitarians also seem to ignore the Baptism account of what God the Father said.

They don't believe that the Son of God was ever born from God or is related to Him or is younger than Him.

Farouk isn't what I am saying about trinitarian Christians correct that they don't believe that Jesus is really the Son of God?

It is way more simpler to believe what God the Father said that He does have a Son [He is older than Him. They are related. He gave birth to Him.]

The trinity doctrine says the exact opposite.

Can you imagine being back at the baptism and hearing the voice from heaven hearing the Father claim to have a Son but you don't believe it so you shake your fist up at him and call him a liar and say that this being that is supposed to be his son is actually coeternal. That is exactly what many Christians are doing with their manmade trinity doctrine.

 

[SonByAdoption]

All created beings and the Son of God agree the Father is the One God of us all.

Originally Posted by SonByAdoption
Please let me clarify that I was talking about a Jewish or a Christian trinity. I'm sure the disciples knew about the pagan trinities. .

I knew what you were talking about which is why I gave the answer I did. .

If Jesus shared coequal authority with His God and His Father and His King than surely He would have told one ofHis Disciples and they would have wrote it in His Bible the very book that He divinely inspired according to the Apostle Peter.

But did Jesus ever teach them that a trinity three in one God ruled the universe? No He never did. He always taught that a single individual being that He claimed was His Father was the single supreme ruler of the universe.

Remember the Lord's Prayer? The Father's will be done in heaven and earth.

Remember Jesus parables where He talks about the King and His Son. The Universeis a monarchy and God the Father is the King. .

And yet Jesus claimed equality with the Father, he implicitly claimed to be God..

Jesus claimed coequality with His Father in nature. Not in His Authority.
You know like how the Preseident of the U.S. is equal to his daughter. They both arehuman beings. They both can do the samethings like humans do. Walk around and think like humans do right? But the president has a higher authority in the government in America.

God the Father and His Divine Offspring are equal Divine beings. And before His incarnation and after His resurrection Jesus could do all the same things that God the Father can do.
But God the Father has a higher authority in the universal Government.
Jesus claimed to be a Divine being. Jesus never claimed to be on authoritive equality with someone who Jesus referred to a the King of the universe.
Before His incarnation Jesus wa sall knowing and all powerful and what did this all knowing all powerful Offpsring of the Most High say about His position in the universal government.†He said, "No; but I have come now as commander of Yahweh's army." Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"†Joshua5:14 world english bible
Before His incarnation Jesus claimed to be the 2nd in command of heaven. Not coauthoritive like trinitarians claim.
After God the Father resurrected Jesus He gave Him His Divine powers back including Omnipotence and Omniscience.
So what does the Only Divine Only all powerful and all knowing Worshipper of the Only True God believe about the ownership of the throne of the universe? Is Jesus a joint owner of the throne of the universe like Trinitarian Christians claim?
“To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.â€Revelation 3:21
God the Father’s throne is the throne of the universe. He is the OnlyTrue God, The Most High God, The Only Potentate/Supreme Ruler, The One God andFather of All. The God of Jesus Christ.
Beleiveng this about the Father is Biblical Monotheism. Jesus Christ not only is God’s only Divine Offspring and His only Divine worshipper. Jesus is also comepletly 100% antitrinitarian and a Biblical Monotheist.

So Free How can you call yourself a Monotheist when you don’t even believe in the same “One God†that Jesus Christ believes in?
Jesus Christ claimed that the Father was the One God and that He was the Divine Son of the “One Godâ€

Trinitarians teaching that there is a three in one commity named the trinity that have equal authority is total contrary to Jesus teaching. .

We'll get to that. Thereare some things that need to be clarified, which I will do in the post thatfollows. .

Jesus preexisted thec reation of time because Jesus created time along with everything else that was created. .

If Jesus created time,then he himself was not created, as several passages show. As soon as something is created, time begins. .

The Preincarnate Christ’s birth was before time and before creation. God the Father had this ability to exist outside of time. Let’s call it Self Existence or Life inHimself.
By inheritence God the Father gave Self Existence or Life in Himself to His only born Son. “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;†John 5:26 Maybe trinitarians believe that God the Father is not really the Father of His Son and that they are same age companions but Jesus believes that He is acutally the literal equally Divine only born Son of the Only True God. Jesus is younger than Him and related to Him.

I asked you in my last reply to you to make a simple comparison between the Apostle Paul's statementof faith 1st Corinthians 8:6 But for us there is One God, the Father and OneLord Jesus Christ vs a trinitarians statement of faith I believe in One God theFather,Son, and Holyspirit.

Your Trinity God and Pauls God in 1st Corin 8:6 are totally oppisite from eachother but you keep ignoring this fact and skipping over this Bible verse altogether. In your next reply please respond that you have read 1st Corin 8:6and please comment on this verse. .

I will comment and note that this ends up being the problem with this discussion--it ends up being a fruitless exercise in proof-texting which generally leads nowhere. Now,certainly Scripture must back up what is said, but the sum of the parts must be in agreement with the whole. And I maintain, that the doctrine of theTrinity is the only doctrine of God where this is the case. .

The Bible says that God has never been seen. Yet there was a God who was seen in the O.T. walking and talking with Adam and Eve after they sinned,eating with Abraham, wrestling with Jacob, and appearing to Moses in theburning bush and other occasions.
If the trinity doctrine is true that this leaves a big gigantic contradiction in the Bible because the trinity teaches that God the Father and His Non Son are part of the same God being and that these persons in this God being are coauthorative.
Let’s thank God that it is not the dark ages and we have the Bible and trinitarians are not going to burn us at the stake for not believing in their unbiblical doctrine.


15Who in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and powereverlasting. Amen. !st Timothy 6:15,16

Not only does 1st Tim6:15 and 16 prove that Jesus,God's Divine Son and God the Father are not the same being because one was seen by fallen man and the other was not but it also proves that the one who wasn’t seen has a higher authority over the other one.
God the Father the Divine being with the Supreme authority sent His Son to conceal His Divine glory and be the Mediator with Fallen man Adam and Eve Abraham and so on.

“TheDivine Son of the Father might be God of all created beings. But He is not Hisown God.†.

Of course not. The Fatherisn't is own God either. .

What an amazingly blasphemousstatement! How do you quote all thoseBible verses from Isaiah where God the Father says there’s no God besideme. Which clearly means he is the only beingwho has no God. Which clearly Jesus Christagrees with by the way that His God and Father is the only one with no God. Andthen you turn around and say something in exact contradiction to the Bibleverses in Isaiah that you just quoted and exact contradiction to the religionthat Jesus Christ believes in to this day.
After God the Father resurrected His DivineOffspring from unconsious death, He gave Him back all of His Divine powers includingomnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience so what does God’s only Divine allpowerful and all knowing worshipper of the Most High say about His God andFather in Revelation?

“Him who overcomes I will make apillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write onhim the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem,which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I wll also write on him mynew name.â€

 

[SonByAdoption]

Re: Jesus worshipped the Father as King of the Universe.So did disciples.so should we

Where in the Bible does it say that the Father "decided to give birth to a Son and it was done"? You need to provide proof or it may be your doctrine that is man-made.

Hello Free I know that I'm skipping over half of your points and I'm sorry but this reply is getting long and its very late where I am so I hope you don't mind if I don't answer your other points later on. You did ask a very good question where is my biblical proof that God the Father gave birth to His Divine Son so it was done so I tried to very quickly answer that before i turn in. Your points were good I read them. Something about Paul was saying in Corinthians 8:6 that Jesus was eternally prexistent or something like that. A real doozy.
God the Father decided to give birth to a Son so it was done. A son equally Divine with Himself. A Son that was the "express image of His person"Hebrews 1:3
A Son that created the universe that Hebrews 1:2 says.
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 1st John 4:9 NASB
The Apostle John was clear in His belief that the preincarnate Christ was God's only born Son before His incarnation. He was the Father's literal Son, the Son of God before He became Mary's literal Son, the Son of Man. He became the Son of Man by inheriting His mother's humanity but thousands of years before that before even the creation of time He became the Son of God by inheriting His Divine nature from His Father.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth John 1:14NASB
He was begotten from the Father. He is not a created being. Created beings were created out of nothing or were created out of other created materials. like how Adam was created out of the dirt or how we inherit adam's life being created in our mothers.
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." Hebrews 1:6 NASB
Proof that Jesus was the Father's firstborn before His incarnation.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. JOHN 8:42

Jesus proceeded forth came out was born out of the substance of God. I think the greek word is exkermai or something like that. It's used of demons coming out of the hosts or people coming out of buildings or of children being born from their parents.

Jesus claimed to be God the Father's only Born Son John 3:16
God the Father claimed to be His Father at His baptism and God can't lie.
Proverbs 30:4 says something like who has created this and who has created that what is His name and What is His Son's name.

The Whole entire Bible paints the picture that God the Father is alone the ruler of the universe but this being has a Divine Offspring who He is God over.
Jesus Christ is the only Divine Worshipper of the only true God.
Have a great day Free. Thank you for being patient with me in trying to answer the rest of your points at a later time.
"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better."Ephesians 1:17 N.I.V.

 

[Free]

Re: All created beings and the Son of God agree the Father is the One God of us all.

If Jesus shared coequal authority with His God and His Father and His King than surely He would have told one ofHis Disciples and they would have wrote it in His Bible the very book that He divinely inspired according to the Apostle Peter.

This is a key passage:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

It shows that Jesus had equality with the Father.

Jesus claimed coequality with His Father in nature. Not in His Authority.

This is addressed by Phil 2 and the idea of the economic Trinity. With the ontological Trinity, Jesus certainly was coequal with the Father precisely because he was of the same nature.

You know like how the Preseident of the U.S. is equal to his daughter. They both arehuman beings. They both can do the samethings like humans do. Walk around and think like humans do right? But the president has a higher authority in the government in America.

That may be true of humans but as far as human analogies go, they always fall short. One cannot be God in nature and yet not coequal with the Father.

God the Father and His Divine Offspring are equal Divine beings. And before His incarnation and after His resurrection Jesus could do all the same things that God the Father can do.
But God the Father has a higher authority in the universal Government.
Jesus claimed to be a Divine being. Jesus never claimed to be on authoritive equality with someone who Jesus referred to a the King of the universe.
Before His incarnation Jesus wa sall knowing and all powerful and what did this all knowing all powerful Offpsring of the Most High say about His position in the universal government.â€

Again, you need to understand the ontological and economic ideas of the Trinity.

He said, "No; but I have come now as commander of Yahweh's army." Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"†Joshua5:14 world english bible
Before His incarnation Jesus claimed to be the 2nd in command of heaven. Not coauthoritive like trinitarians claim.

You are assuming that the "commander of the LORD's army" is the Son. Nowhere in the text is that given.

After God the Father resurrected Jesus He gave Him His Divine powers back including Omnipotence and Omniscience.

If Jesus is omnipotent and omniscient, then he is God and coequal with the Father.

So what does the Only Divine Only all powerful and all knowing Worshipper of the Only True God believe about the ownership of the throne of the universe? Is Jesus a joint owner of the throne of the universe like Trinitarian Christians claim?
“To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.â€Revelation 3:21
God the Father’s throne is the throne of the universe. He is the OnlyTrue God, The Most High God, The Only Potentate/Supreme Ruler, The One God andFather of All. The God of Jesus Christ.

Beleiveng this about the Father is Biblical Monotheism.

Biblical monotheism is that there is has only ever been one God and will only ever be one God. This is completely contradictory to your polytheism.

Jesus Christ not only is God’s only Divine Offspring and His only Divine worshipper. Jesus is also comepletly 100% antitrinitarian and a Biblical Monotheist.

He is a part of the Trinity. That is orthodox Christian belief.

So Free How can you call yourself a Monotheist when you don’t even believe in the same “One God†that Jesus Christ believes in?
Jesus Christ claimed that the Father was the One God and that He was the Divine Son of the “One Godâ€

I am a monotheist because I believe there is only one God. You are a polytheist which the entire Bible denounces. I most certainly believe in the one True God.

The Preincarnate Christ’s birth was before time and before creation.

If he was created, then that is when time began. If there is a point at which something or someone begins to exist, then time necessarily begins as well.

John 5:26 Maybe trinitarians believe that God the Father is not really the Father of His Son and that they are same age companions but Jesus believes that He is acutally the literal equally Divine only born Son of the Only True God. Jesus is younger than Him and related to Him.

Trinitarians very much believe in the Father and the Son. And, no, Jesus did not believe that he was literally a "born son," that is, a created being. He has always existed, just as the Father has always existed.

The Bible says that God has never been seen. Yet there was a God who was seen in the O.T. walking and talking with Adam and Eve after they sinned,eating with Abraham, wrestling with Jacob, and appearing to Moses in theburning bush and other occasions.

If the trinity doctrine is true that this leaves a big gigantic contradiction in the Bible because the trinity teaches that God the Father and His Non Son are part of the same God being and that these persons in this God being are coauthorative.
Let’s thank God that it is not the dark ages and we have the Bible and trinitarians are not going to burn us at the stake for not believing in their unbiblical doctrine.

15Who in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and powereverlasting. Amen. !st Timothy 6:15,16

Not only does 1st Tim6:15 and 16 prove that Jesus,God's Divine Son and God the Father are not the same being because one was seen by fallen man and the other was not but it also proves that the one who wasn’t seen has a higher authority over the other one.
God the Father the Divine being with the Supreme authority sent His Son to conceal His Divine glory and be the Mediator with Fallen man Adam and Eve Abraham and so on.

The Bible never says that Adam and Eve saw God. Regardless, the use of "God" in the NT must be properly understood. It can refer to "God" in general, or it can refer to the Father specifically. Not that it matters since we both understand it to be referring to the Father specifically. So, no, there is no contradiction with trinitarianism.

What an amazingly blasphemousstatement! How do you quote all thoseBible verses from Isaiah where God the Father says there’s no God besideme. Which clearly means he is the only beingwho has no God.

That is not what those verses say, is it? They very clearly state that there has always been only one God and there will always be only one God. This directly contradicts your claim that "TheDivine Son of the Father might be God of all created beings." You believe in two Gods, the Bible says there is only one. It is you that is contradicting Scripture, not I.

Which clearly Jesus Christagrees with by the way that His God and Father is the only one with no God. Andthen you turn around and say something in exact contradiction to the Bibleverses in Isaiah that you just quoted and exact contradiction to the religionthat Jesus Christ believes in to this day.

Please reread what I wrote. Nothing I stated is in contradiction with the verses I gave from Isaiah.

After God the Father resurrected His DivineOffspring from unconsious death, He gave Him back all of His Divine powers includingomnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience so what does God’s only Divine allpowerful and all knowing worshipper of the Most High say about His God andFather in Revelation?

“Him who overcomes I will make apillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write onhim the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem,which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him mynew name.â€

Context, context, context. You are divorcing each passage you use from the greater context of Scripture. It is all too common amongst those who disagree with the Trinity but it is precisely why they can' see it.

 

[Free]

Re: Jesus worshipped the Father as King of the Universe.So did disciples.so should we

Hello Free I know that I'm skipping over half of your points and I'm sorry but this reply is getting long and its very late where I am so I hope you don't mind if I don't answer your other points later on. You did ask a very good question where is my biblical proof that God the Father gave birth to His Divine Son so it was done so I tried to very quickly answer that before i turn in. Your points were good I read them. Something about Paul was saying in Corinthians 8:6 that Jesus was eternally prexistent or something like that. A real doozy.
God the Father decided to give birth to a Son so it was done. A son equally Divine with Himself. A Son that was the "express image of His person"Hebrews 1:3
A Son that created the universe that Hebrews 1:2 says.
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 1st John 4:9 NASB
The Apostle John was clear in His belief that the preincarnate Christ was God's only born Son before His incarnation. He was the Father's literal Son, the Son of God before He became Mary's literal Son, the Son of Man. He became the Son of Man by inheriting His mother's humanity but thousands of years before that before even the creation of time He became the Son of God by inheriting His Divine nature from His Father.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth John 1:14NASB
He was begotten from the Father. He is not a created being. Created beings were created out of nothing or were created out of other created materials. like how Adam was created out of the dirt or how we inherit adam's life being created in our mothers.
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." Hebrews 1:6 NASB
Proof that Jesus was the Father's firstborn before His incarnation.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. JOHN 8:42

Jesus proceeded forth came out was born out of the substance of God. I think the greek word is exkermai or something like that. It's used of demons coming out of the hosts or people coming out of buildings or of children being born from their parents.

Jesus claimed to be God the Father's only Born Son John 3:16
God the Father claimed to be His Father at His baptism and God can't lie.
Proverbs 30:4 says something like who has created this and who has created that what is His name and What is His Son's name.

The Whole entire Bible paints the picture that God the Father is alone the ruler of the universe but this being has a Divine Offspring who He is God over.
Jesus Christ is the only Divine Worshipper of the only true God.
Have a great day Free. Thank you for being patient with me in trying to answer the rest of your points at a later time.
"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better."Ephesians 1:17 N.I.V.

I hope you get to my other points as they are very much a part of the fuller argument and must be understood and dealt with.

None of the verses you gave show that Jesus was literally born from the Father. Jesus is not a created being. If he is, he is not God. This is another significant contradiction for your position.

There are at least two significant problems with your position that cannot be supported from the Bible:

1. Polytheism--that the Son is God but a different being than God the Father. Two Gods is polytheism, something the Bible very much is against.

2. You believe that Jesus is God but yet a created being. Those two ideas are mutually exclusive. The very definition of God includes the idea that he is uncreated.