The only Divine Worshipper of the Only True God

[SonByAdoption]

We only need God the Father and His Son to be saved Jn17:3 no trinity

Hello Danus. I hope you are enjoying your weekend.

I can fully see the points you are making...

I sincerly doubt that you understand any of my points because you said that you think that I am a Jehovah's Witness. If you would have read my original post at all than you would have seen in my very first sentence that I am not a Jehovah's Witness.

Jesus the Son of God is my God so I believe what he said.

Of course you must realize that I am agreeing with Thomas when He worshipped the Son of God saying My Lord and My God. Now did you ever hear any Jehovah's Witness or anyone who believes that Jesus is a created being ever say that the Son of God is my God. Later on in my original post I wrote

The preincarnate Christ was not born a baby knowing nothing but He was born as a fully grown Divine being all knowing and all powerful “the express image of (the Father’s) personâ€Hebrews 1:3

Have you ever met a Jehovah's Witness that said that Jesus was born from the Father all knowing and all powerful? Let me tell you something about Jehovah's Witness'. They don't believe that Jesus was ever born from the Father. They believe that He is a created son like all the angels are called sons of God. You tell them that Jesus is the Son of God and they say so what Adam was called the Son of God too. What blasphemy to think that someone think to put the Son of God Jesus our only Creator on the same level as His creation.

...and I can see how people might be in agreement with you on this...

Well praise the Lord, Brother Danus.
Paul Said "I pray to God, that whether with little or with much, not only you, but also all that hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these bonds."Acts 26:29

...However, I would urge you to consider it more deeply if there is any room left in your view.

I definitely will consider it everyday as I go on my walk believeing with Jesus Christ that God the Father is the One God of the Universe.

There are tons of scriptures that do not reconcile with the view that you have laid out...

If there is so many scriptures that do not reconcile with my view than I would definitely be open and anxious for you to share these with me as you have time. Also please comment on them and tell me why they don't reconcile with my view.

...and you have added logic based on your own assumptions in your view that do not square with the bible.

Please give me some examples of this added logic of my assumptions that don't square with the Bible.
Because I was always under the impression that the Niceans the group of Christians that invented the trinity doctrine were the ones who added false teachings that contradict the bible.
There is at least 20 Bible verses that say that God the Father is God over His Allmighty AllPowerful Offspring.
Should I believe the Bible for what is says like Bible believing Christians should do or should I just ignore all these Bible verses like I'm afraid that man Christians with their trinity doctrine that makes the word of God void.

There is a lot more to understanding the trinity then just a few verses.

There is absoultely no reason for anyone to try and understand any trinity doctrine. Jesus said that to have eternal life we must Get to know God the Father who Jesus called the Only True God, and Jesus Christ who is His Divine Son. He never said that we have to get to know your imaginary Holy Spirit person in order to be saved.
Speaking out against idolotry the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:6 that the two Divine beings that He worships is God the Father,the One God and His Divine Son. Only two. So where do trinitarians get there biblical reasoning for commiting idolotry by worshipping their imaginary god they have named the Holy Spirit? Absolutely no bible verses of any examples of anyone worshipping or praying to or talking to anyone named the Holy Spirit.

The idea that God simply "had a son" and the son shared divinity with God, but was not God, leaves us with a huge problem...

Please tell me what the huge problem is.
You are human but the Human is Adam. You and Adam are not the same human. The Son of God is God but His God is God the Father. There is absolutely no reason to believe that God the Father and His Divine Son are the same God.
Trinitarians have absolutely no Bible evidence for saying that the One God and Jesus Christ are the same God when the Bible says the exact opposite."For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"1st Timothy 2:5
It's God the Father's job to be the One God. It's His equally Divine's Son job to be the One mediator.

...that we can easily solve with what the bible actually says of Jesus Christ.

The Bible actually says that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Trinitarians say no that is not right he is actually God Himself.
I am very anxious to see what you belive the Bible actually says about Jesus christ.

I had problems with the trinity at first. It did not make sense and when I read the bible at first it seemed clear to me that Jesus was the offspring of God, but perhaps not God himself.

"By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus."Acts 4:30"And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.â€Mark 1:11"And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."Luke 9:35 ""He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."John 3:18
It sounds like when you first started reading the Bible you had the right idea because Jesus is the Divine Offspring of the Father and a seperate being from Him and they have different ages and different jobs.

Earlier you suggested that only wayward Christians and Jehovah witnesses believe the trinity. ...

My prayer is that one day Trinitarian Christians and Jehovah's Witness Christians will put down their false beliefs about Jesus and actually belive John 3:16 that God the Father had an Only Born Son that He sent into the world.

I absolutely did not say that Jehovah's Witnesses and trinitarian Christians both believe the trinity. I said they both have false beliefs about Jesus. Like for example Jehovah's Witness say that only a created being died on the cross for us and trinitarians say that only the human part of Jesus died for us. Both of these false views only leave us with a human sacrifice.

I've no idea where you got that because Jehovah whiteness do not follow the doctrine of the trinity at all

You seem to have misunderstood what I said.

But, they [Jehovah's Witnesses]do follow practically the same understanding you laid out...

They absolutely don't have the same understanding as me. I believe in the full comeplete divinity of the Son of the Most High.
God the Father gave birth to an Almighty all Powerful Son. His Son created us all. The Son of God is our Creator and Our God Hallelujah Praise the Son. God the Father is the One God/Sumpreme Ruler of the Universe and He is the God of Jesus Christs.
Forever Live the King the Only Potentate 1st tim 6:16 who has never been seen or can be seen by fallen man because he is a consuming fire.
One day Jesus will come back and all the dead Christians will get to go to heaven and us who are living and he will change us to glorified bodies so we will be able to see God the Father and not burn up. Yayyy!

...I thought you where part of the watch tower group in reading your understanding. Are you not?

I am not affiliated with any church that believes that Jesus is a created being. He is God's only born Son and my Creator.

...Jehovah's Witnesses believe there is a God who is the Creator and the most powerful individual in the universe...

If you are talking about Divine Powers. Than God the Father and His Son are totally equal. They are both almighty and all knowing.
But they are not equal in authority. God the Father is the One God the King of the universe. Jesus Christ is 2nd in command.

...They believe that Jesus Christ is God's son...

They believe that Jesus Christ is not really God's Son but they believe Him to be one of God's created angels.

...and the holy spirit is the power that God can use, or let other people use, to help his purposes.

I also don't believe that the Holy Sprit is a person but I don't believe it is a power. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father's mind.
You were created in the image of God. Your spirit is your mind in your head. God the Father's spirit is His mind in His head. But His mind is not limited to his head but fills the universe.
I know you probably think that Jesus was saying that someone else was the Comforter but he actually is saying that He is the Comforter. And he also says that God the Father and He are going to come and make their homes in our hearts. John 14:23

 

[WIP]

I would like to offer a little word of caution. This thread has been allowed to continue despite some rather strong statements that violate our statement of faith and in so doing, our terms of service. Considering this forum is an apologetic forum it seems prudent to allow the discussion to continue so long as we remain civil. Please keep this in mind. I also wish to post the following reminders from our Statement of Faith.

• There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[SonByAdoption]

Dear Free. How are you doing? I hope you are enjoying the summer.

Bible beleiving Christians in Arius's day didn't speak out against him because he said that Jesus had a beginning but because he said that Jesus had a created beginning that the Father created Him out of nothing.
"12. Concerning whom we thus believe, even as the Apostolic Church believes. In one Father unbegotten, who has from no one the cause of His being, who is unchangeable and immutable, who is always the same, and admits of no increase or diminution; who gave to us the Law, the prophets, and the Gospels; who is Lord of the patriarchs and apostles, and all the saints. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God; not begotten of things which are not, but of Him who is the Father..."From Alexander Priest of Alexandria to Alexander Bishop of Constantinople http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0622.htm

Alexander was the famous guy who spoke out against Arius during the time of the Council of Nice. He said that Arius was saying that Jesus was created out of nothing.

I think that if Arius and His party would have said that Jesus was born from the Father and is equal to the Father than none of the Christians would have had a problem with his teaching.

If you've seen the Niceian creed than I'm sure you've read that many Christians in that day believed Jesus was begotten from the Father before all ages.

Why do you then use the term "God the Father"? If there is no other God, then there is no use for "God the Father."

Free, by your question am I supposed to understand that you belive in more than one God because I have also seen you write, "God the Father" before?

I know that I told you before that I believe that God the Father is called God the Father because He alone is the One God and the originator of all life like the Bible says "yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things[including his only born]..."in 1st Corinthians 8:6.Weymouth New Testament [including his only born]is a phrase that I added.

But this time I want to say that God the Father is called God the Father because He is the originator of the Divine race.

You know like how Adam is the father of the human race.

Adam with his God given power to reproduce with the help of his God given wife became the father of the human race.
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"Genesis 5:3

Interesting how Seth was his third son but this is the only one that the Bible says was his image. Maybe his other two sons favored the mother more.

Anyways Seth was Adam's begotten image. When he was full grown he probably looked very much like his dad and Adam aged very slow so they probably looked like brothers.

The preincarnate Son of God was the Father's begotten image.
" ...God has sent His only begotten Son into the world ""...He gave His only begotten Son..."
" Christ who is God's image.""He who is the image of The Unseen God..."...the express image of His person..."1st John 4:9 N.A.S.B., John 3:16 N.A.S.B.,2nd Corinthians 4:4 God's Word Translation,Colosians 1:15 Aramaic Bible in Plain English and Hebrews 1:3 K.J.V.

The Greek word that was translated "express image" means exact reproduction.

"

Impossible. The Son cannot be equally divine to the Father unless the Son is just as much God as the Father is God. If the Son is created, then he cannot, by definition, be God."

I said that the Father gave birth to His Son. His only begotten.

Then you said that I am saying that Jesus is created.

That sounds weird to me.

Only begotten and created are totally different words with totally different meanings.

Jesus Christ by Himself and alone with no help from His Father created the universe of created things out of nothing.

But despite what Arius and the Arian party taught and Jehovah's Witness's teach today that Jesus Christ was created out of nothing and is an inferior being to the Father.

The preincarnate Jesus was not created out of nothing. He is the only one who was born from the Father. So He is an equal being.

Free what I believe that you do is have a false definition of what created means. You believe that anyone that has a beginning must be created. But that puts a false limitation on the Father.

You believe that the Father can only begin a life by creating it but the Father doesn't believe so.

The Father said He had a Son and I believe Him. He knew that what the word Son means. A child of a parent. He knew that people would believe that He gave His Son His Life.

He did not intend for a group of "Christians" to come along in the 4th century and say. "Hey everybody, you know how God the Father said this is my Son. You know like claiming to be the Father of this child. Like He gave birth to Him or something. Well guys cross out the word Son and put the words "coeternal companion" in its place.

Free you can believe Jesus is eternal if you like but I choose to take God the Father at His word that He is the Father of His Child and that He began His life by being born from His Divine Substance. That is what Parents mean when they say they have children. God the Father is not an exception. He Jesus was really a coeternal companion than He would have said that.

And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.â€Mark 1:11 ESV"And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!â€"Luke 9:35 ESV

Similar to how the original human became the father/originator of his race.

God the Father became the Father of His race.

Billions and Billions in Adams race.

Only two Divine beings in the Father's race. Him and His only Born Son.

The offspring of the original human are just as much human as he was.

And God's only offspring is just as much Divine as the original God.

God the Father is a God/ Divine being. Jesus is a God/ Divine being. But God the Father is alone the "One God/supreme ruler"

You know how satan is called the god of this world and we all know that satan is a created being and inferior to Jesus.

But see the Bible still calls him the god of this world because he is the" ruler "of the sinners.

Even though God the Father and His Son are both Gods, God the Father is the Only one God because He is the Absolute ruler even over His equal in nature and Divine powers Son."...My Father, whom you claim as your God..."John 8:54

Jesus never told any Jew that they were wrong for claiming that His Father was their God. He never say hey you guys believe in a 3 in one trinity that I am a part of.

The Jews did believe that God the Father had a Divine Son they just didn't believe it was Jesus.

Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know! Proverbs 30:4 N.A.S.B.

 

[SonByAdoption]

I would like to offer a little word of caution. This thread has been allowed to continue despite some rather strong statements that violate our statement of faith and in so doing, our terms of service. Considering this forum is an apologetic forum it seems prudent to allow the discussion to continue so long as we remain civil. Please keep this in mind. I also wish to post the following reminders from our Statement of Faith.

• There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I thank you for your word of caution and I am glad that you decided to join the discussion.

I'm glad that you decided to let this thread go a little longer.

You haven't given any me any examples of things that you consider strong statements that I have said that have brought on your word of caution but I am going to guess its because I said that the Holy Spirit that trinitarian Christians believe in is imaginary.

My friend if you saw a group of Christians trying to teach other Christians that Jesus Christ is a created being because of their misinterpretation of one Bible verse Colosians 1:15 wouldn't you try to talk some sense into these believers?

They say there you have it Jesus is the "firstborn of every creature" there you have it Jesus must be a created being.

And they would have you read the rest of the Bible looking through the eyes of this misinterpreted Bible verse.

This is the same exact way that trinitarian Christians train other Christians in their Bible study of what the Holy Spirit is.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter/Counseler/Advocate, that he may abide with you forever;" John 14:16

Trinitarians say there you have it. Jesus said another. Therefore He must be talking about someone else. Not possible He's talking about Himself in another form. Absolutely no reason to read the rest of the chapter guys you might get a better claification if you do that.

The same way that Jehovah's witnesses don't want you to read the whole chapter of Colosians 1.

Trinitarians don't want you to read the whole chapter of John 14.

Because You just might find out that Jesus was talking about Himself being the Comforter. No One else could do it but Jesus.

God the Father was never tempted in all points like me so He can't be my Comforter.

Only Jesus can. Is Jesus my Comforter? He answered that in the very next couple of verses.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:17,18


Jesus is the one that the disciples knew. Jesus is the one that lived with them and Jesus is the one that would be in them.

One Bible version translates Comforter as Counseler Jesus is my only Counseler like Isaiahs Messianic prophesy promised He would be.

One bible version translates Comforter as Advocate and Jesus is my only Advocate like John says in his epistle that He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

One Bible version translates Comforter as Helper and the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews explains why Jesus is our only Helper. "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."Hebrews 2:18

Trinitarian Christians might try to teach you you need to believe in their third mysterious version of what the Holy Spirit to be saved and have eternal life but you tell them.

Jesus said in the Bible"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3 N.I.V.

Jesus said we only need Him and His Father to be saved. Surely He would have mentioned some third mysterious unknowable being if such a person existed."Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." John 14:23 N.I.V.

God the Father is a real person. He has a Divine Form and a Divine mind.

Even before Jesus Christ was incarnated the Son of God was a real person with a Divine form and a Divine mind.

Someone says something like this" My heart is broken and my spirit is grieved every 7th day Sabbath that I go into a trinitarian church because they worship a 3rd unknowable god that I don't know of"

Now what is someone else came along and read what I wrote about a spirit being grieved and misunderstood what I was saying and thought that the spirit I was talking about was a seperate.

This is exactly what the first trinitarians did when they invented their trinitarian doctrine in the 4th century.

They misunderstood the Father's mind for another person.

When the bible says that the spirit that is grieved. We are supposed to understand that the Father is grieved or when the Bible says that the spirit says something. We are to understand that to mean that the Father is saying someing.

Holy is not a name it is just an adjetive describing the Spirit of the Father.

Jesus Christ went back to heaven and got all of His divine powers back including omnipresece. That is why He is able to spiritually be our comforter even though He is physically sitting in heaven next to the Father on His throne.

Trinitarians try and use a Bible verse in Acts 5 to prove that the Holy Spirit is a seperate God but all that Bible verse does is prove what everyone knows already that God the Father is a telepath.

When the Father's Holy Spirit talks to us we know that it is the Father talking to us and not someone else.

Jesus has His own spirit and the adjective describing His Spirit is Holy Spirit. So there is actually two Holy Spirits.

Just as the first trinitarians made up their whole religion on a misunderstanding that the Father's spirit/mind is a seperate person from Him I am afraid that these people will also start thinking that Jesus spirit/mind is a seperate person from Him and then trinitrians will turn in to quatrotarians which seems even worse.

 

[SonByAdoption]

God the Father is the Original God. Jesus is His reproduction.His image.Only Born Son

yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all [CREATED] things exist. 1st Corinthians 8:6 W.N.T. I added the word created.

Firstly, if we understand this to say that only the Father is God, then it follows that the Father cannot be Lord.

I have seen this kind of reasoning before. The trinitarians take you to verses where the One God is called Lord and they say see the God is called Lord. Seems like bad reasoning to me.

The idea that Paul was trying to get accross is that The Father has the highest authority and His Child has the 2nd highest authority in the universe.

Remember how in Genesis Pharoah promoted Joseph to Lord of Egypt?

"You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you." Genesis 41:40 N.I.V.

Those egyptians might have said.

In the world there are many pharohs and many lords but to us egyptians there is only one Pharoh,Apopis and one Lord Josheph.

In my example Apopis is the one Pharoh and Joseph is the one Lord.

Does this mean that an egyptian couldn't ever call his Pharoh my lord.
No offcourse not. That doesn't change the fact that the Pharoh has the highest authority in egypt.

I hope this helps you understand 1st Corinthians 8:6 better. Jesus because God the Father is called Lord sometimes in the O.T. doesn't disprove the fact that He alone is the One God.


Jesus is not the One God and Jesus is not eternal.

When the Bible says that God the Father is the source of all things.

All things is all things that has an origin.

God the Father is the Originator of all things that has an orgin.

Jesus Christ is the originator of all things that has a created orgin.

It is different because there is one being who has an origin but He is not created.

That is Jesus Christ.

Micha 5:2 says His origin is in eternity. The church Fathers quoted proverbs 8 many times to prove that Jesus using the symbol of wisdom talked about His Divine birth from the Father before the creation of anything created.

And yet Jesus claimed equality with the Father....

The Bible says that Jesus is equal with God before His incarnation in Philipians 2 and after His incarnation in John 5. Thats why I don't believe your trinity theory because I have my thinking cap on. I know that he fact that Jesus is equal with God proves that He is someone else other than God. Two Divine beings who are equal can not be the same Divine being. Just like you and the president are equal. Proving you are not the same human being. God and Christ are equal proving they are not the same God.

Since we have seen and believe that Jesus is equal to God before his incarnation. Philipians 2 and during His incarnation John 5 than why does He say that His Father is greater than Him?

"...be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER [in age and authority]than I." John 14:28 N.I.V. I added the words in age and authority.

God and His Son are equal in nature but they are not equal in authority and they are not equal in age God the Father is infinity years old. Jesus Christ is almost infinity years old. He's a little younger than His dad. He is His true literal Son. He was born from Him

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18 N.I.V.

Jesus said all authority was given to Him over all created beings but He does not have authority over himself. He does not have an equal authority with His Father.

"Clearly, God has put everything under Christ's authority. When God says that everything has been put under Christ's authority, this clearly excludes God, since God has put everything under Christ's authority"1st Corinthians 15:27 G.W.T.

"...the blessed and only Potentate...Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach; whom no man hath seen, nor can see..."John 14:28 N.I.V. 1st Timothy 6:15,16W.B.T.

God the Father alone is the Only Potentate. The Ultimate supreme ruler in the universe.

...he implicitly claimed to be God.

This is my definition of the word God. God noun the Supreme being. The person in the universe who has the highest authority. The king of the universe.

God adjective a being who has divine nature. A divine being so on infinitely higher level than the angels.

I wanted to share my definition of the word God so you wouldn't get confused when I said.

Jesus is not the first definition of the word God. But Jesus is the 2nd definition of the word God.

No Jesus never claimed to be God(The Supreme Being. person with the highest authority)"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust ALSO in me." John 14:1 N.I.V. You do know what ALSO means don't you? Jesus excluded Himself from being God. Its like Jesus is saying " I am not God(the supreme being, person with the highest authority) I am someone else other than God. Believe in me also"

Free, please put down your trinitarian traditions and read the Bible for what it says and believe it.

Yes Jesus claimed to be God(Divine. a Divine being. someone with a Divine nature which is infinitely higher than any other nature including the angelic nature)

God the Father is the Original God.[Only True God John 17:3] Jesus Christ is His reproduction, His image, His only born Son.

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true [ORIGINAL]God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.""For God so loved the world, that he gave HIS ONLY BORN SON that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."John 17:3 NIV John 3:16 K.J.V. I added the word Original and I switched the word begotten for born. Because begotten is an old english was for saying born.

We only need to get to know 2 people in order to be saved and this fact totally disproves the theory of the trinity god.