The Parable of the Fig Tree

[whirlwind]

Several months ago I wrote the following, "Parable of the Fig Tree." I wanted to bring it forward again for anyone interested but especially for a poster that sees the time of the tribulation as having past...in 70AD. From the parable we see the time He spoke of could not have happened until the Jews were returned to their land....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mention of the Fig Tree runs through the Bible from the beginning to the end....Genesis to Revelation, with many references throughout. We are to understand what is being said! The first mention is just after Adam and Eve were seduced by Satan.....

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Something monumental happened between them and Satan (the serpent) if it caused their eyes to be opened. Notice too....this was not an apple tree. There was no apple for Eve to take a bite of. That is just more of the fairy tales we have been taught...right beside Santa Claus and the easter bunny. They were in a grove of figs. And, Christ wanted us to learn about those figs!


Matthew 24:31-33 And He shall send His angels with a sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now LEARN a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

"Summer is nigh," meaning....it is almost time for the harvest! The harvest of souls is at the end of this age when He sends His angels. Learn the parable and know when it is almost time to be gathered.

He instructed us to learn the parable. We find it in the Old Testament.....


Jeremiah 24:1 The Lord shewed me, and, behold two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the Lord, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

24:3 Then said the Lord unto me, "What seest thou, Jeremiah?" And I said, "Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."

24:5 "Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

24:6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:


Two baskets of figs. One basket of very good figs, first fruits, and one basket of very evil figs. Now we know figs aren't evil so this is speaking of people.

Two of the twelve tribes of Israel, known as the house of Judah which consist of Judah and Benjamin, were taken captive by Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. The other ten tribes, the house of Israel, had been taken captive some two hundred years before that time and they never returned to Judea. They are known as the lost tribes and I believe they are the Christians of today. But, this parable concerns the house of Judah (Judah and Benjamin).

When did God, "bring them again to this land?" In 1948! That was the year the Nation of Israel was established. That was the beginning of the generation of the fig tree when both good and evil figs were set out. That is when they began "putting forth leaves" so we know that the end is "even at the doors."


Matthew 24:34-35 Verily I say unto you, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."


What is meant by "this generation?" It is the generation of the fig tree. It is our generation, the generation in which all of this takes place. Biblically, there are three generations. Forty, seventy and one hundred and twenty. We passed the first marker in 1988 and are quickly approaching the next - 2018. The end doesn't have to be on that date but during that generation.


We began with the first Biblical reference to the fig tree....now for the last:


Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The mighty wind is the Holy Spirit shaking the "untimely figs" - Satan and his fallen angels, out of heaven. They're coming to earth to try to take us "out of season"....before the true Christ arrives at His 2nd Advent. Notice that in [Matthew 24:32] the fig tree is a "him." Here the fig tree is a "her/she."


One fig tree has the good figs while the other....the "her/she" grows the evil figs. Is that female "Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth?" Is that tree the tree of knowledge of good and evil from the Garden of Eden? We know that the parable is telling us the figs are people....who are the evil figs from this tree and how did they make their appearance?

 

[parousia70]

What did Luke mean by including ALL TREES, and not just the Fig?:

Luke 21:29-30

Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.

 

[parousia70]

When did God, "bring them again to this land?" In 1948! That was the year the Nation of Israel was established. That was the beginning of the generation of the fig tree when both good and evil figs were set out. That is when they began "putting forth leaves" so we know that the end is "even at the doors."

So James was wrong here:

Js 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[c] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

According to you, he must have been wrong, for as I read your claim above, it would not be correct to say what James said until AFTER 1948.

Biblically, there are three generations. Forty, seventy and one hundred and twenty.

It would be helpful if you would cite the chapter and verse that Biblically equates 70 & 120 years with the term "generation" I am already abundantly aware of the Biblical justification for equating 40 years as a "generation" so you don't need to bother with that. Just the 70 & 120.

Where does the Bible call 70 years a "generation"?

Where does the Bible call 120 years a "generation"

 

[whirlwind]

When did God, "bring them again to this land?" In 1948! That was the year the Nation of Israel was established. That was the beginning of the generation of the fig tree when both good and evil figs were set out. That is when they began "putting forth leaves" so we know that the end is "even at the doors."

So James was wrong here:

Js 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[c] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

According to you, he must have been wrong, for as I read your claim above, it would not be correct to say what James said until AFTER 1948.

Of course James wasn't wrong...you just don't understand what is written for you see them through your :shades . Of course the Judge is at the door and yes, His coming is near. For those that have and will die before us....they meet the Judge. Their door is opened as ours will be if we die before His second Advent.

[quote:v2b1ptsg] Biblically, there are three generations. Forty, seventy and one hundred and twenty.

It would be helpful if you would cite the chapter and verse that Biblically equates 70 & 120 years with the term "generation" I am already abundantly aware of the Biblical justification for equating 40 years as a "generation" so you don't need to bother with that. Just the 70 & 120.

Where does the Bible call 70 years a "generation"?

Where does the Bible call 120 years a "generation"[/quote:v2b1ptsg]

Since you asked so politely....

Isaiah 23:15And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Both those scriptures speak of the same event.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy People and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Are Daniels seventy weeks the seventy years? I don't know but it is a possibility.

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.


Deuteronomy 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

 

[whirlwind]

What did Luke mean by including ALL TREES, and not just the Fig?:

Luke 21:29-30

Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.

The parable doesn't speak about "one fig tree." We are to "look at the fig tree" and take our lesson from it. When it begins to bud, when the events begin to happen then there were two baskets set out...good and evil figs. They are the trees. People are trees, some good some evil. For instance....

Judges 9:8-10 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, 'Reign thou over us.' But the olive tree said unto them, 'Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?" And the trees said to the fig tree, 'Come thou, and reign over us.'

The trees also asked the vine who refused. Finally the trees asked the bramble...

9:14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, 'Come thou, and reign over us.' And the bramble said unto the trees, 'If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.'

We know a bramble doesn't cast a shadow to take refuge under so this bramble is....Satan and he wants all the good little trees to trust him and anoint him as their king. Some do.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Several months ago I wrote the following, "Parable of the Fig Tree." I wanted to bring it forward again for anyone interested but especially for a poster that sees the time of the tribulation as having past...in 70AD. From the parable we see the time He spoke of could not have happened until the Jews were returned to their land....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mention of the Fig Tree runs through the Bible from the beginning to the end....Genesis to Revelation, with many references throughout. We are to understand what is being said! The first mention is just after Adam and Eve were seduced by Satan.....

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Something monumental happened between them and Satan (the serpent) if it caused their eyes to be opened. Notice too....this was not an apple tree. There was no apple for Eve to take a bite of. That is just more of the fairy tales we have been taught...right beside Santa Claus and the easter bunny. They were in a grove of figs. And, Christ wanted us to learn about those figs!


Matthew 24:31-33 And He shall send His angels with a sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now LEARN a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

"Summer is nigh," meaning....it is almost time for the harvest! The harvest of souls is at the end of this age when He sends His angels. Learn the parable and know when it is almost time to be gathered.

He instructed us to learn the parable. We find it in the Old Testament.....


Jeremiah 24:1 The Lord shewed me, and, behold two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the Lord, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

24:3 Then said the Lord unto me, "What seest thou, Jeremiah?" And I said, "Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."

24:5 "Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

24:6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:


Two baskets of figs. One basket of very good figs, first fruits, and one basket of very evil figs. Now we know figs aren't evil so this is speaking of people.

Two of the twelve tribes of Israel, known as the house of Judah which consist of Judah and Benjamin, were taken captive by Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. The other ten tribes, the house of Israel, had been taken captive some two hundred years before that time and they never returned to Judea. They are known as the lost tribes and I believe they are the Christians of today. But, this parable concerns the house of Judah (Judah and Benjamin).

When did God, "bring them again to this land?" In 1948! That was the year the Nation of Israel was established. That was the beginning of the generation of the fig tree when both good and evil figs were set out. That is when they began "putting forth leaves" so we know that the end is "even at the doors."


Matthew 24:34-35 Verily I say unto you, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."


What is meant by "this generation?" It is the generation of the fig tree. It is our generation, the generation in which all of this takes place. Biblically, there are three generations. Forty, seventy and one hundred and twenty. We passed the first marker in 1988 and are quickly approaching the next - 2018. The end doesn't have to be on that date but during that generation.


We began with the first Biblical reference to the fig tree....now for the last:


Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The mighty wind is the Holy Spirit shaking the "untimely figs" - Satan and his fallen angels, out of heaven. They're coming to earth to try to take us "out of season"....before the true Christ arrives at His 2nd Advent. Notice that in [Matthew 24:32] the fig tree is a "him." Here the fig tree is a "her/she."


One fig tree has the good figs while the other....the "her/she" grows the evil figs. Is that female "Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth?" Is that tree the tree of knowledge of good and evil from the Garden of Eden? We know that the parable is telling us the figs are people....who are the evil figs from this tree and how did they make their appearance?

Wow, I think futurists, especially dispensationalists, need to apologize to all preterists for accusing them of spiritualizing. Again, Whirlwind, your desperation is apparent. You are reading into "fig tree" what YOU want it to mean. Jesus spoke of a simple fig tree and all the trees. Furthermore, it was not to US that He said "learn the parable of the fig tree." He was speaking to those disciples standing right there with Him. Do you EVER consider audience relevance and CONTEXT? Whom did Jesus say was to know that summer was near when the simple fig tree's simple branches became tender and it put forth is simple leaves? THOSE disciples right there with Him! Not only do you refuse to accept a simple fig tree, you refuse to acknowledge simple direct address. Were those disciples there with Jesus sleeping while He was addressing them? According to you, they might as well have been. Nothing concerned them. Everything's about US! WE are NOT the YE!

Jesus said to those flesh-and-blood disciples standing right there with Him--"So YOU also, when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS, [YOU] know that it [His coming] is near--at the doors." THISgeneration--not your desperate, fabricated, absurd, and unjustified "generation of the fig tree"-- shall not pass away till ALL these things take place." Honestly, Whirlwind, if preterists pulled such hermeneutical calisthenics, they would be summarily and justifiably attacked by futurists!

I have given up communicating with Osgiliath and nonbelieversforum because of similar mishandling of God's Word and similar obstinate resistance to plain words and refusal to consider context and audience relevance. Must I also do that with you? I am not here to waste my time on people who love their beliefs more than they love truth!

You did not come up with this ridiculous concept of a fig tree; it was taught to you by those who should know better. There is nothing in the passage that naturally leads one to such a false conclusion. It is only the desperation of the interpreter, when he sees the obvious damage such a passage when taken at face value does to his beliefs, that causes him to search the Scriptures--not for truth--but for justification. That is abuse, Whirlwind.

You are so satisfied with this nonsensical approach to Matthew 24 and it is sad to me to see to what extent people will go to force the Scriptures to fit their schemes. And you do not even see your double standard. You do not see that this is the very approach for which you attack and misjudge preterists. Futurists can see symbols and figures and types, etc. all over the Scriptures when it serves their purpose, but let a preterist do the same thing and POUNCE! "Heretic!"

Apply your own standards, Whirlwind, or I cannot continue this pointless debate!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Wow, I think futurists, especially dispensationalists, need to apologize to all preterists for accusing them of spiritualizing. Again, Whirlwind, your desperation is apparent. You are reading into "fig tree" what YOU want it to mean. Jesus spoke of a simple fig tree and all the trees. Furthermore, it was not to US that He said "learn the parable of the fig tree." He was speaking to those disciples standing right there with Him. Do you EVER consider audience relevance and CONTEXT?

Yes I do and so should you.....

Whom did Jesus say was to know that summer was near when the simple fig tree's simple branches became tender and it put forth is simple leaves? THOSE disciples right there with Him! Not only do you refuse to accept a simple fig tree, you refuse to acknowledge simple direct address. Were those disciples there with Jesus sleeping while He was addressing them? According to you, they might as well have been. Nothing concerned them. Everything's about US! WE are NOT the YE!

Well...maybe you aren't His disciple but...I am. :yes May I ask, why do you even bother to read the letter He wrote to US? If it was just to those folks from long ago...why bother?

Jesus said to those flesh-and-blood disciples standing right there with Him--"So YOU also, when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS, [YOU] know that it [His coming] is near--at the doors." THISgeneration--not your desperate, fabricated, absurd, and unjustified "generation of the fig tree"-- shall not pass away till ALL these things take place." Honestly, Whirlwind, if preterists pulled such hermeneutical calisthenics, they would be summarily and justifiably attacked by futurists!

Dear Matthew...He instructed us to LEARN the parable. Calling it fabricated, etc. won't make it go away. I didn't write it you know.

I have given up communicating with Osgiliath and nonbelieversforum because of similar mishandling of God's Word and similar obstinate resistance to plain words and refusal to consider context and audience relevance. Must I also do that with you? I am not here to waste my time on people who love their beliefs more than they love truth!

I hope not Matthew for I hope I will be able to change your "obstinate resistance to plain words and refusal to consider context and audience relevance." :yes To assume I don't love truth more than my beliefs is the wrong road to travel with me. Because you don't agree with me I don't automatically assume you don't also love truth....at present, we both believe we have truth.

You did not come up with this ridiculous concept of a fig tree; it was taught to you by those who should know better. There is nothing in the passage that naturally leads one to such a false conclusion. It is only the desperation of the interpreter, when he sees the obvious damage such a passage when taken at face value does to his beliefs, that causes him to search the Scriptures--not for truth--but for justification. That is abuse, Whirlwind.

Matthew....Jesus said, "learn the parable of the fig tree" as it held clues to the end of time, so we would know, "that summer is nigh." What is the parable? Jesus said there is a parable and if you don't believe I demonstrated the parable may I ask....where is it Matthew? Did He lie? Do we need to fabricate a parable or is it written? You tell me....where is the parable we are to learn?

You are so satisfied with this nonsensical approach to Matthew 24 and it is sad to me to see to what extent people will go to force the Scriptures to fit their schemes. And you do not even see your double standard. You do not see that this is the very approach for which you attack and misjudge preterists. Futurists can see symbols and figures and types, etc. all over the Scriptures when it serves their purpose, but let a preterist do the same thing and POUNCE! "Heretic!"

Am I attacking and judging? Have I ever termed you or anyone here a heretic? I love symbols, figures and types and I would NEVER pounce on anyone for that.

Apply your own standards, Whirlwind, or I cannot continue this pointless debate!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

I thought that I have treated you with respect Matthew. I certainly meant to. You seem to be a nice child of God....why would I not do so?

 

[Sinthesis]

Several months ago I wrote the following, "Parable of the Fig Tree." I wanted to bring it forward again for anyone interested but especially for a poster that sees the time of the tribulation as having past...in 70AD. From the parable we see the time He spoke of could not have happened until the Jews were returned to their land....

---

Jeremiah 24:1 The Lord shewed me, and, behold two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the Lord, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

24:3 Then said the Lord unto me, "What seest thou, Jeremiah?" And I said, "Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."

24:5 "Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

24:6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:


Two baskets of figs. One basket of very good figs, first fruits, and one basket of very evil figs. Now we know figs aren't evil so this is speaking of people.

---

When did God, "bring them again to this land?" In 1948! That was the year the Nation of Israel was established. That was the beginning of the generation of the fig tree when both good and evil figs were set out. That is when they began "putting forth leaves" so we know that the end is "even at the doors."

537BC??? The fall of Babylon??? Cyrus the Great??? Ezra???

 

[whirlwind]

Several months ago I wrote the following, "Parable of the Fig Tree." I wanted to bring it forward again for anyone interested but especially for a poster that sees the time of the tribulation as having past...in 70AD. From the parable we see the time He spoke of could not have happened until the Jews were returned to their land....

---

Jeremiah 24:1 The Lord shewed me, and, behold two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the Lord, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

24:3 Then said the Lord unto me, "What seest thou, Jeremiah?" And I said, "Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."

24:5 "Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

24:6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:


Two baskets of figs. One basket of very good figs, first fruits, and one basket of very evil figs. Now we know figs aren't evil so this is speaking of people.

---

When did God, "bring them again to this land?" In 1948! That was the year the Nation of Israel was established. That was the beginning of the generation of the fig tree when both good and evil figs were set out. That is when they began "putting forth leaves" so we know that the end is "even at the doors."

537BC??? The fall of Babylon??? Cyrus the Great??? Ezra???

Good morning Sinthesis,

Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Were "all these things" Jesus taught in that chapter fulfilled in the events you quoted? Has the end yet happened...the summer means harvest and there has not yet been the harvest. In the parable described in [Jeremiah 24] have the "good figs" yet been given "an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My People, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart?" [24:7] Have the evil figs yet been "consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers?"


It is "at the doors" but....it has not yet happened.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Wow, I think futurists, especially dispensationalists, need to apologize to all preterists for accusing them of spiritualizing. Again, Whirlwind, your desperation is apparent. You are reading into "fig tree" what YOU want it to mean. Jesus spoke of a simple fig tree and all the trees. Furthermore, it was not to US that He said "learn the parable of the fig tree." He was speaking to those disciples standing right there with Him. Do you EVER consider audience relevance and CONTEXT?

Yes I do and so should you.....

Whom did Jesus say was to know that summer was near when the simple fig tree's simple branches became tender and it put forth is simple leaves? THOSE disciples right there with Him! Not only do you refuse to accept a simple fig tree, you refuse to acknowledge simple direct address. Were those disciples there with Jesus sleeping while He was addressing them? According to you, they might as well have been. Nothing concerned them. Everything's about US! WE are NOT the YE!

Well...maybe you aren't His disciple but...I am. :yes May I ask, why do you even bother to read the letter He wrote to US? If it was just to those folks from long ago...why bother?


[quote:23ha396f]Jesus said to those flesh-and-blood disciples standing right there with Him--"So YOU also, when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS, [YOU] know that it [His coming] is near--at the doors." THISgeneration--not your desperate, fabricated, absurd, and unjustified "generation of the fig tree"-- shall not pass away till ALL these things take place." Honestly, Whirlwind, if preterists pulled such hermeneutical calisthenics, they would be summarily and justifiably attacked by futurists!

Dear Matthew...He instructed us to LEARN the parable. Calling it fabricated, etc. won't make it go away. I didn't write it you know.

I have given up communicating with Osgiliath and nonbelieversforum because of similar mishandling of God's Word and similar obstinate resistance to plain words and refusal to consider context and audience relevance. Must I also do that with you? I am not here to waste my time on people who love their beliefs more than they love truth!

I hope not Matthew for I hope I will be able to change your "obstinate resistance to plain words and refusal to consider context and audience relevance." :yes To assume I don't love truth more than my beliefs is the wrong road to travel with me. Because you don't agree with me I don't automatically assume you don't also love truth....at present, we both believe we have truth.

You did not come up with this ridiculous concept of a fig tree; it was taught to you by those who should know better. There is nothing in the passage that naturally leads one to such a false conclusion. It is only the desperation of the interpreter, when he sees the obvious damage such a passage when taken at face value does to his beliefs, that causes him to search the Scriptures--not for truth--but for justification. That is abuse, Whirlwind.

Matthew....Jesus said, "learn the parable of the fig tree" as it held clues to the end of time, so we would know, "that summer is nigh." What is the parable? Jesus said there is a parable and if you don't believe I demonstrated the parable may I ask....where is it Matthew? Did He lie? Do we need to fabricate a parable or is it written? You tell me....where is the parable we are to learn?

You are so satisfied with this nonsensical approach to Matthew 24 and it is sad to me to see to what extent people will go to force the Scriptures to fit their schemes. And you do not even see your double standard. You do not see that this is the very approach for which you attack and misjudge preterists. Futurists can see symbols and figures and types, etc. all over the Scriptures when it serves their purpose, but let a preterist do the same thing and POUNCE! "Heretic!"

Am I attacking and judging? Have I ever termed you or anyone here a heretic? I love symbols, figures and types and I would NEVER pounce on anyone for that.

Apply your own standards, Whirlwind, or I cannot continue this pointless debate!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

I thought that I have treated you with respect Matthew. I certainly meant to. You seem to be a nice child of God....why would I not do so? [/quote:23ha396f]

Dear Whirlwind: I did not mean to imply that YOU yourself were calling me a heretic. You have not personally done so, and you have indeed been respectful to me. My problem is that without knowing it and with the best of intentions, you are not respectful to God's Word! Whirlwind, have you really studied those OT passages that you string together? Was Jeremiah writing anything at all about 1948 or was he writing about his time?

Again, there is no need for someone to misunderstand Jesus' simple statement, "THIS generation," unless one's eschatological views require him to! Jesus never used that expression in the way you insist He does in Matthew 24:34. He used it 20 times, Whirlwind. He ALWAYS meant His contemporaries.

I do not challenge you to be mean and to be disrespectful. I simply wish to caution you to be as certain as you possibly can that you are using those OT passages correctly. Remember, Whirlwind, I once believed as you do. I was taught to use those same OT passages; I was taught to ignore or redefine time words that were contrary to dispensationalism by covering them all up with 2 Peter 3:8. Then I actually began to study Jeremiah and Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel in their contexts and in their historical setting. It is nothing short of abuse and manipulation that most futurists do to make these passages have anything to do with our future!

Simply because Jesus was talking to those particular disciples about things that were to personally happen to them does not remove from the Scriptures any application or significance for me. But IF we do not place events in their proper historical setting, we CANNOT make proper application!

What were the conditions for Israel to return to the land? Did modern Israel meet those conditions? Are Jews today true Jews? Did they return to their land in faith? Even now she is a secular state and many couldn't care less about the Jewish faith. Furthermore, who are the Jews? Can they trace their ancestry? Do they even know from what tribe they descend? All records are lost. Although it was certainly under God's sovereignty (all events are), the nation we call "Israel" today was formed by the U.N. and it bears no resemblance to OT Israel. The power of that "holy people" was totally and forever shattered (Dan. 12) in A. D. 70. The Jews not killed were taken into captivity where they assimilated and intermarried.

The parable is this, Whirlwind--the fig tree represents that generation in which Jesus and those disciples were then living. The tenderness of the branch and the putting forth of its leaves as a sign of the soon coming of summer represent the ALL things that were to take place. They were the signs of His coming. That is the context. Just as THOSE disciples right there with Him saw the signs of the coming of summer as depicted in the parable of the fig tree, so THEY were to see that when the things He had just explained to THEM began to take place (when the branch became tender and the fig tree put forth its leaves!) THEY were know that His coming was NEAR--at the doors! In other words, as easily as THOSE disciples right there with Him recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the tenderness of the branches of a simple fig tree and all the simple trees and in the putting forth of their leaves, so THEY were to recognize His coming in THAT generation. The meaning is clear. There is no reference to Israel as a nation here in the fig tree simply because Jesus used that symbol for it at another time. Again, THEY are told that THEY are to learn the parable of the fig tree. Jesus gives the meaning of the fig tree and all the trees right there in the passage!

Whirlwind, I say these things to challenge you, not to berate you. My friend, I was once you! Perhaps that is why I come on so strongly. I studied and learned the teachings of dispensationalism quite proficiently while in seminary for four years! Do you think it was easy for me to admit that I had been wrong and that I had then turned around and taught that same error to others? I was not being honest with the simple words of the Scriptures and neither are you! Again, I do not say that to be mean--I believe you love the Lord and you love His Word. So do I and so did I when I was unknowingly twisting it and manipulating to fit the preconceived ideas I had been taught. Such things once firmly instilled in us are not easy to relinquish. Do I have all the truth; do I claim to have all the truth? Of course not. I am constantly reevaluating certain things to make sure that I am correctly understanding lest I find that I am reading something into a passage that is not there!

Whirlwind, Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:34 is clear. No one comes to the dispensational understanding of "this generation" from a simple reading of the text. No one who had never heard the dispensational spin on "this generation" would ever take it to mean anything other than that generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived. Anyone who reads the NT Scriptures without doctrinal bias understands the basic meanings of "near" and "soon," etc. It is only the reading of preconceived ideas into the texts in which these words are found that forces interpreters to change the simplicity of common words into complexity or duplicity. When I say that you love your system more than truth, I do not imply that you do so willingly or even knowingly. But you have been conditioned by your system to refuse to acknowledge the very basic meanings of simple terms! "Near" and "soon" taken in their usual, common, everyday meanings will never be compatible with dispensationalism. To redefine them or even ignore them comes from an obstinence that clings tenaciously to something that is contrary to the obvious.

When the "generation of the fig tree" as it is understood by dispensationalists is stretched to its reasonable limits and beyond, perhaps then those caught up in the errors of dispenationalism will finally see what Jesus clearly meant! Dispensationalists before 1988 were firmly convinced that a generation was forty years. When 1988 came and went, they changed the limits of a generation. Perhaps it was actually 70 years. Two thousand eighteen will also come and go, and the term will again be redefined. Perhaps then a generation will mean 120 years. Few of "this" generation will live to see 2068. That is the current strength of futurism--it doesn't have to prove what hasn't yet happened! It will continue to redefine "generation" until its meaning becomes so ridiculous no one will any longer accept the futurist claims.

At this point, Whirlwind, you are content with your system and nothing will change your mind. You will not admit, as I first would not, that time words mean exactly what they always mean and that Jesus and His disciples clearly conveyed that He was coming back in that first-century generation. You have been taught a certain nature of that coming and a certain nature of the resurrection and the judgment that will not allow you to take time words at face value. Even though near really means near and soon really means soon, and deep in your heart of hearts you know they do, you cannot reconcile your preconceived ideas to them. When others point out that soon means soon and near means near, your first response is "when did that happen?" It did not happen the way you insist it must, therefore, soon cannot mean soon and near cannot mean near! When one finds himself, as I did, manipulating the simple and the normal to accommodates his concepts, it is time to re-evaluate those concepts. You are not there yet.

You continue to grab OT passages out of their contexts to make "this generation" mean "that" generation of a fig tree! You casually cast out any normalcy of time words by asserting that with God time has a different meaning so that when He speaks to us with terms such as near or soon, He really means to convey far or later--much later. Could not our God have spoken to us more plainly--or did He? You are still content with that type of twisting and manipulating--not even aware that you are doing so. When it is pointed out that in that very generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived the Gospel was preached in all the world, you, with a clear conscience and with all seriousness, acknowledge that to be true but then create some ridiculous aspect of "divine truth" and latter rain that must still be delivered to our world. Therefore, Jesus' words in Mark 13:10 have really not been fulfilled! This is unfounded desperation, Whirlwind. This is why I called you obstinate--so convinced of the "truth" of your views that you create that which is not there! Again, I do not say these things to be cruel or unduly harsh. But that is what you are doing, my friend. I speak as someone who has been there! Our views are always subordinate to the truth.

I do not hope to change your mind. I do hope, however, that I have made you aware of some things. And I hope that EVERY time you see a time word, you are given pause to reflect its true meaning and intent. I hope they begin to haunt you and trouble you as they did me until you come to the place where you stop twisting them and manipulating them to your own ends.

Love, in Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Dear Matthew,

You are a precious soul. I don't have time this morning to spend giving the attention to your post that it most assuredly deserves...but will later. However, in scanning it I sense the tone in which it was written and...I thank you for that.

Sincerely, Judi / Whirlwind

 

[Matthew24:34]

Dear Matthew,

You are a precious soul. I don't have time this morning to spend giving the attention to your post that it most assuredly deserves...but will later. However, in scanning it I sense the tone in which it was written and...I thank you for that.

Sincerely, Judi / Whirlwind

Take your time, Whirlwind!

Sincerely, Judy, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Dear Whirlwind: I did not mean to imply that YOU yourself were calling me a heretic. You have not personally done so, and you have indeed been respectful to me. My problem is that without knowing it and with the best of intentions, you are not respectful to God's Word! Whirlwind, have you really studied those OT passages that you string together? Was Jeremiah writing anything at all about 1948 or was he writing about his time?

I'm going to take each paragraph in order...there are times when I do so, in a long post, that new things are revealed to me and I have changed my mind from what was stated in the beginning but...to answer the above: Yes, I have studied them as much as I have been able in the time afforded me. Jeremiah was a prophet and he was divinely inspired to write of the future. Now, I also realize, and take to heart that Paul told us.....Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [1 Corinthians 10:11] I see that in the types and shadows of events in the Bible....even the persecution of our Savior as our example. "There is no new thing under the sun."

Again, there is no need for someone to misunderstand Jesus' simple statement, "THIS generation," unless one's eschatological views require him to! Jesus never used that expression in the way you insist He does in Matthew 24:34. He used it 20 times, Whirlwind. He ALWAYS meant His contemporaries.

In that section of chapter 24 He had just instructed us to "learn a parable of the fig tree" and then said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." To me, He is saying...when we "shall see all these things," as detailed in the parable then we know that the end is "even at the doors" and that was the generation, the last generation, the generation of the fig tree. The "this generation" was the one that would not pass until those events were fulfilled.

One of the events was, "For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ;' and shall deceive many." And, "many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." How "many" Christians, those using His name" were there that were deceiving folks back in that time? Some? Yes, but many? NO. There certainly are many now but not then.

I do not challenge you to be mean and to be disrespectful. I simply wish to caution you to be as certain as you possibly can that you are using those OT passages correctly. Remember, Whirlwind, I once believed as you do. I was taught to use those same OT passages; I was taught to ignore or redefine time words that were contrary to dispensationalism by covering them all up with 2 Peter 3:8. Then I actually began to study Jeremiah and Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel in their contexts and in their historical setting. It is nothing short of abuse and manipulation that most futurists do to make these passages have anything to do with our future!

Matthew, I truly feel you cannot place His divine Word in "their historical setting." They are Divinely written "for our admonition" about the end of the world....not the temple being destroyed.

Simply because Jesus was talking to those particular disciples about things that were to personally happen to them does not remove from the Scriptures any application or significance for me. But IF we do not place events in their proper historical setting, we CANNOT make proper application!

What were the conditions for Israel to return to the land? Did modern Israel meet those conditions? Are Jews today true Jews? Did they return to their land in faith? Even now she is a secular state and many couldn't care less about the Jewish faith. Furthermore, who are the Jews? Can they trace their ancestry? Do they even know from what tribe they descend? All records are lost. Although it was certainly under God's sovereignty (all events are), the nation we call "Israel" today was formed by the U.N. and it bears no resemblance to OT Israel. The power of that "holy people" was totally and forever shattered (Dan. 12) in A. D. 70. The Jews not killed were taken into captivity where they assimilated and intermarried.

Israel has not returned. They are the ten lost tribes....those Christ was sent to...

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The Jews, two of the twelve tribes...Judah and Benjamin, termed the house of Judah, are those that returned from captivity to the Babylonians. Not so with the ten northern tribes (who are NOT Jews) when taken captive two hundred years before the house of Judah (Jews). They were taken by Assyria and never returned, hence....lost sheep of the house of Israel. All twelve tribes are Israel but only two tribes are Jews.

Christ was sent to them and He found them....they are today's Christians. God scattered them and they serve His purpose today. Now, are we of that blood lineage? Some of us certainly are and others not. However, when I teach that some folks scream racism so...to avoid that and also as it is quite factual, it doesn't matter anymore for upon belief in Him we become part of His family.

So, where you mention Israel returning to the land....it has not happened but will, as written....

Ezekiel 37:16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

37:21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them. (27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My People.

Hosea also taught of that future time....Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. [Hosea 1:11]

So, although the house of Israel was and remains scattered, the house of Judah are those in the nation of Israel. Did some intermarry with Gentiles. Sure, but I would imagine the great bulk of them, at least before this time in modern history, did not marry outside familal structure.

I'm not sure why I got into that tangent but...I did.

The parable is this, Whirlwind--the fig tree represents that generation in which Jesus and those disciples were then living. The tenderness of the branch and the putting forth of its leaves as a sign of the soon coming of summer represent the ALL things that were to take place. They were the signs of His coming. That is the context.

He was their generation Matthew. So, if "summer is nigh" when those things were to happen He certainly went about telling them of the events in a peculiar way. If "this generation" meant His generation why not just say...The world is about to end?

Just as THOSE disciples right there with Him saw the signs of the coming of summer as depicted in the parable of the fig tree, so THEY were to see that when the things He had just explained to THEM began to take place (when the branch became tender and the fig tree put forth its leaves!) THEY were know that His coming was NEAR--at the doors! In other words, as easily as THOSE disciples right there with Him recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the tenderness of the branches of a simple fig tree and all the simple trees and in the putting forth of their leaves, so THEY were to recognize His coming in THAT generation. The meaning is clear. There is no reference to Israel as a nation here in the fig tree simply because Jesus used that symbol for it at another time. Again, THEY are told that THEY are to learn the parable of the fig tree. Jesus gives the meaning of the fig tree and all the trees right there in the passage!

Consider two of the events depicted in Jeremiah 24, about the parable of the fig tree and ask if they happened during the generation of Jesus.....has the house of Judah "returned unto Me with their whole heart?" Have they accepted Christ? Not yet but they, as well as the house of Israel, will as written in [Revelation 7:4]. Secondly....did He remove the evil basket of figs from Jerusalem in the generation of Jesus or...are they still there today?

Whirlwind, I say these things to challenge you, not to berate you. My friend, I was once you! Perhaps that is why I come on so strongly. I studied and learned the teachings of dispensationalism quite proficiently while in seminary for four years! Do you think it was easy for me to admit that I had been wrong and that I had then turned around and taught that same error to others? I was not being honest with the simple words of the Scriptures and neither are you! Again, I do not say that to be mean--I believe you love the Lord and you love His Word. So do I and so did I when I was unknowingly twisting it and manipulating to fit the preconceived ideas I had been taught. Such things once firmly instilled in us are not easy to relinquish. Do I have all the truth; do I claim to have all the truth? Of course not. I am constantly reevaluating certain things to make sure that I am correctly understanding lest I find that I am reading something into a passage that is not there!

Whirlwind, Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:34 is clear. No one comes to the dispensational understanding of "this generation" from a simple reading of the text. No one who had never heard the dispensational spin on "this generation" would ever take it to mean anything other than that generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived. Anyone who reads the NT Scriptures without doctrinal bias understands the basic meanings of "near" and "soon," etc. It is only the reading of preconceived ideas into the texts in which these words are found that forces interpreters to change the simplicity of common words into complexity or duplicity. When I say that you love your system more than truth, I do not imply that you do so willingly or even knowingly. But you have been conditioned by your system to refuse to acknowledge the very basic meanings of simple terms! "Near" and "soon" taken in their usual, common, everyday meanings will never be compatible with dispensationalism. To redefine them or even ignore them comes from an obstinence that clings tenaciously to something that is contrary to the obvious.

When the "generation of the fig tree" as it is understood by dispensationalists is stretched to its reasonable limits and beyond, perhaps then those caught up in the errors of dispenationalism will finally see what Jesus clearly meant! Dispensationalists before 1988 were firmly convinced that a generation was forty years. When 1988 came and went, they changed the limits of a generation. Perhaps it was actually 70 years. Two thousand eighteen will also come and go, and the term will again be redefined. Perhaps then a generation will mean 120 years. Few of "this" generation will live to see 2068. That is the current strength of futurism--it doesn't have to prove what hasn't yet happened! It will continue to redefine "generation" until its meaning becomes so ridiculous no one will any longer accept the futurist claims.

At this point, Whirlwind, you are content with your system and nothing will change your mind. You will not admit, as I first would not, that time words mean exactly what they always mean and that Jesus and His disciples clearly conveyed that He was coming back in that first-century generation. You have been taught a certain nature of that coming and a certain nature of the resurrection and the judgment that will not allow you to take time words at face value. Even though near really means near and soon really means soon, and deep in your heart of hearts you know they do, you cannot reconcile your preconceived ideas to them. When others point out that soon means soon and near means near, your first response is "when did that happen?" It did not happen the way you insist it must, therefore, soon cannot mean soon and near cannot mean near! When one finds himself, as I did, manipulating the simple and the normal to accommodates his concepts, it is time to re-evaluate those concepts. You are not there yet.

You continue to grab OT passages out of their contexts to make "this generation" mean "that" generation of a fig tree! You casually cast out any normalcy of time words by asserting that with God time has a different meaning so that when He speaks to us with terms such as near or soon, He really means to convey far or later--much later. Could not our God have spoken to us more plainly--or did He? You are still content with that type of twisting and manipulating--not even aware that you are doing so. When it is pointed out that in that very generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived the Gospel was preached in all the world, you, with a clear conscience and with all seriousness, acknowledge that to be true but then create some ridiculous aspect of "divine truth" and latter rain that must still be delivered to our world. Therefore, Jesus' words in Mark 13:10 have really not been fulfilled! This is unfounded desperation, Whirlwind. This is why I called you obstinate--so convinced of the "truth" of your views that you create that which is not there! Again, I do not say these things to be cruel or unduly harsh. But that is what you are doing, my friend. I speak as someone who has been there! Our views are always subordinate to the truth.

I do not hope to change your mind. I do hope, however, that I have made you aware of some things. And I hope that EVERY time you see a time word, you are given pause to reflect its true meaning and intent. I hope they begin to haunt you and trouble you as they did me until you come to the place where you stop twisting them and manipulating them to your own ends.

Love, in Christ, Matthew24:34

[/quote]


Thank you for taking time to write that Matthew and no...you didn't change my mind. There are too many obstacles written that, to me, show what you are teaching cannot be. What I have been considering is just what is the consequence of our different beliefs on this subject? Are we harmed spiritually in any way? Is knowing, as I do, that the millennium is yet future going to harm preterist for not believing that? Or, is knowing, as you do, that we are presently in the millennium, going to harm futurist? Is it a matter of salvation as long as we are prepared?

 

[Sinthesis]

Good morning Sinthesis,

Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Were "all these things" Jesus taught in that chapter fulfilled in the events you quoted? Has the end yet happened...the summer means harvest and there has not yet been the harvest. In the parable described in [Jeremiah 24] have the "good figs" yet been given "an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My People, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart?" [24:7] Have the evil figs yet been "consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers?"

It is "at the doors" but....it has not yet happened.[/b]

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree" (not the parable) There is more than one fig parable and they are not necessarily related.

In Matthew 24 "all these things" of which Jesus speaks is not in reference to the time of Jeremiah. Jeremiah 24 is not about the 'time of the end' no matter how you define it; the prophecy lists actual people by name!

However, the 'fig prophecies' of Jeremiah 24 were fulfilled during and after the Babylonian captivity. Those 'good fig' Jews taken into captivity repented and survived to return, while the 'evil fig' Jews were eliminated. The prophecy of Ezekiel 37:15-23 was also fulfilled during and after the Babylonian captivity.

 

[parousia70]

However, the 'fig prophecies' of Jeremiah 24 were fulfilled during and after the Babylonian captivity. Those 'good fig' Jews taken into captivity repented and survived to return, while the 'evil fig' Jews were eliminated. The prophecy of Ezekiel 37:15-23 was also fulfilled during and after the Babylonian captivity.

Good Point. Indeed ALL propehsies of a scattering and return of the Jews to their Homeland were written and fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian Exile.


There is not one single prophesy written after the end of the Babylonian Exile that fortells of another dispersal AND SUBSEQUNET RETURN of the Jews to Israel.

Not one.

 

[parousia70]

It would be helpful if you would cite the chapter and verse that Biblically equates 70 & 120 years with the term "generation" I am already abundantly aware of the Biblical justification for equating 40 years as a "generation" so you don't need to bother with that. Just the 70 & 120.

Where does the Bible call 70 years a "generation"?

Where does the Bible call 120 years a "generation"

Since you asked so politely....

Isaiah 23:15And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Nothing about 70 years being called a Generation here

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Nope, not there either. Nothing about 70 years = a generation

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy People and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Are Daniels seventy weeks the seventy years? I don't know but it is a possibility.

regardless, nothing here equates 70 weeks or years to "a generation"

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

I see 120 years = average human lifespan, but I do not see anywhere in this verse that 120 years = "a generation".

Deuteronomy 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Again, NOTHING equating 120 years, or 70 years to the Biblical use of the word GENERATION.

Here's what I'm after WW, a CLEAR teaching equating 70 or 120 years to the Biblical term "generation"

Something like is used to equate 40 years to a generation here:

Numbers 32:13
So the LORD’s anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone.

And here:

Psalm 95:10
For forty years I was grieved with that generation,And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways

Or even something we could do the math ourselves on, and calculate that 70 years or 120 years equals a generation, like the way we can calculate "a generation = 40 years" here:

Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

Got anything like that?

 

[whirlwind]

It would be helpful if you would cite the chapter and verse that Biblically equates 70 & 120 years with the term "generation" I am already abundantly aware of the Biblical justification for equating 40 years as a "generation" so you don't need to bother with that. Just the 70 & 120.

Where does the Bible call 70 years a "generation"?

Where does the Bible call 120 years a "generation"

Since you asked so politely....

Isaiah 23:15And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Nothing about 70 years being called a Generation here

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Nope, not there either. Nothing about 70 years = a generation


[quote:kb4rpr5b]Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy People and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Are Daniels seventy weeks the seventy years? I don't know but it is a possibility.

regardless, nothing here equates 70 weeks or years to "a generation"

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

I see 120 years = average human lifespan, but I do not see anywhere in this verse that 120 years = "a generation".

Deuteronomy 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Again, NOTHING equating 120 years, or 70 years to the Biblical use of the word GENERATION.

Here's what I'm after WW, a CLEAR teaching equating 70 or 120 years to the Biblical term "generation"

Something like is used to equate 40 years to a generation here:

Numbers 32:13
So the LORD’s anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone.

And here:

Psalm 95:10
For forty years I was grieved with that generation,And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways

Or even something we could do the math ourselves on, and calculate that 70 years or 120 years equals a generation, like the way we can calculate "a generation = 40 years" here:

Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

Got anything like that?[/quote:kb4rpr5b]


Your example of [Matthew 1:17] answers your question. In the fourteen generations from Abraham to David...each of the life spans of those fourteen are termed a generation. Do you believe they all lived an exact length of time. Did all of them live to be 40, 70 or 120 or 999? So, I submit to you that "an average lifespan" is a generation. And, we are given Biblical examples of 40, 70 and 120.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Dear Whirlwind: I did not mean to imply that YOU yourself were calling me a heretic. You have not personally done so, and you have indeed been respectful to me. My problem is that without knowing it and with the best of intentions, you are not respectful to God's Word! Whirlwind, have you really studied those OT passages that you string together? Was Jeremiah writing anything at all about 1948 or was he writing about his time?

I'm going to take each paragraph in order...there are times when I do so, in a long post, that new things are revealed to me and I have changed my mind from what was stated in the beginning but...to answer the above: Yes, I have studied them as much as I have been able in the time afforded me. Jeremiah was a prophet and he was divinely inspired to write of the future. Now, I also realize, and take to heart that Paul told us.....Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [1 Corinthians 10:11] I see that in the types and shadows of events in the Bible....even the persecution of our Savior as our example. "There is no new thing under the sun."

Again, there is no need for someone to misunderstand Jesus' simple statement, "THIS generation," unless one's eschatological views require him to! Jesus never used that expression in the way you insist He does in Matthew 24:34. He used it 20 times, Whirlwind. He ALWAYS meant His contemporaries.

In that section of chapter 24 He had just instructed us to "learn a parable of the fig tree" and then said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." To me, He is saying...when we "shall see all these things," as detailed in the parable then we know that the end is "even at the doors" and that was the generation, the last generation, the generation of the fig tree. The "this generation" was the one that would not pass until those events were fulfilled.

One of the events was, "For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ;' and shall deceive many." And, "many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." How "many" Christians, those using His name" were there that were deceiving folks back in that time? Some? Yes, but many? NO. There certainly are many now but not then.


[quote:216cusoj]I do not challenge you to be mean and to be disrespectful. I simply wish to caution you to be as certain as you possibly can that you are using those OT passages correctly. Remember, Whirlwind, I once believed as you do. I was taught to use those same OT passages; I was taught to ignore or redefine time words that were contrary to dispensationalism by covering them all up with 2 Peter 3:8. Then I actually began to study Jeremiah and Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel in their contexts and in their historical setting. It is nothing short of abuse and manipulation that most futurists do to make these passages have anything to do with our future!

Matthew, I truly feel you cannot place His divine Word in "their historical setting." They are Divinely written "for our admonition" about the end of the world....not the temple being destroyed.

Simply because Jesus was talking to those particular disciples about things that were to personally happen to them does not remove from the Scriptures any application or significance for me. But IF we do not place events in their proper historical setting, we CANNOT make proper application!

What were the conditions for Israel to return to the land? Did modern Israel meet those conditions? Are Jews today true Jews? Did they return to their land in faith? Even now she is a secular state and many couldn't care less about the Jewish faith. Furthermore, who are the Jews? Can they trace their ancestry? Do they even know from what tribe they descend? All records are lost. Although it was certainly under God's sovereignty (all events are), the nation we call "Israel" today was formed by the U.N. and it bears no resemblance to OT Israel. The power of that "holy people" was totally and forever shattered (Dan. 12) in A. D. 70. The Jews not killed were taken into captivity where they assimilated and intermarried.

Israel has not returned. They are the ten lost tribes....those Christ was sent to...

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The Jews, two of the twelve tribes...Judah and Benjamin, termed the house of Judah, are those that returned from captivity to the Babylonians. Not so with the ten northern tribes (who are NOT Jews) when taken captive two hundred years before the house of Judah (Jews). They were taken by Assyria and never returned, hence....lost sheep of the house of Israel. All twelve tribes are Israel but only two tribes are Jews.

Christ was sent to them and He found them....they are today's Christians. God scattered them and they serve His purpose today. Now, are we of that blood lineage? Some of us certainly are and others not. However, when I teach that some folks scream racism so...to avoid that and also as it is quite factual, it doesn't matter anymore for upon belief in Him we become part of His family.

So, where you mention Israel returning to the land....it has not happened but will, as written....

Ezekiel 37:16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

37:21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them. (27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My People.

Hosea also taught of that future time....Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. [Hosea 1:11]

So, although the house of Israel was and remains scattered, the house of Judah are those in the nation of Israel. Did some intermarry with Gentiles. Sure, but I would imagine the great bulk of them, at least before this time in modern history, did not marry outside familal structure.

I'm not sure why I got into that tangent but...I did.

The parable is this, Whirlwind--the fig tree represents that generation in which Jesus and those disciples were then living. The tenderness of the branch and the putting forth of its leaves as a sign of the soon coming of summer represent the ALL things that were to take place. They were the signs of His coming. That is the context.

He was their generation Matthew. So, if "summer is nigh" when those things were to happen He certainly went about telling them of the events in a peculiar way. If "this generation" meant His generation why not just say...The world is about to end?

Just as THOSE disciples right there with Him saw the signs of the coming of summer as depicted in the parable of the fig tree, so THEY were to see that when the things He had just explained to THEM began to take place (when the branch became tender and the fig tree put forth its leaves!) THEY were know that His coming was NEAR--at the doors! In other words, as easily as THOSE disciples right there with Him recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the tenderness of the branches of a simple fig tree and all the simple trees and in the putting forth of their leaves, so THEY were to recognize His coming in THAT generation. The meaning is clear. There is no reference to Israel as a nation here in the fig tree simply because Jesus used that symbol for it at another time. Again, THEY are told that THEY are to learn the parable of the fig tree. Jesus gives the meaning of the fig tree and all the trees right there in the passage!

Consider two of the events depicted in Jeremiah 24, about the parable of the fig tree and ask if they happened during the generation of Jesus.....has the house of Judah "returned unto Me with their whole heart?" Have they accepted Christ? Not yet but they, as well as the house of Israel, will as written in [Revelation 7:4]. Secondly....did He remove the evil basket of figs from Jerusalem in the generation of Jesus or...are they still there today?

Whirlwind, I say these things to challenge you, not to berate you. My friend, I was once you! Perhaps that is why I come on so strongly. I studied and learned the teachings of dispensationalism quite proficiently while in seminary for four years! Do you think it was easy for me to admit that I had been wrong and that I had then turned around and taught that same error to others? I was not being honest with the simple words of the Scriptures and neither are you! Again, I do not say that to be mean--I believe you love the Lord and you love His Word. So do I and so did I when I was unknowingly twisting it and manipulating to fit the preconceived ideas I had been taught. Such things once firmly instilled in us are not easy to relinquish. Do I have all the truth; do I claim to have all the truth? Of course not. I am constantly reevaluating certain things to make sure that I am correctly understanding lest I find that I am reading something into a passage that is not there!

Whirlwind, Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:34 is clear. No one comes to the dispensational understanding of "this generation" from a simple reading of the text. No one who had never heard the dispensational spin on "this generation" would ever take it to mean anything other than that generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived. Anyone who reads the NT Scriptures without doctrinal bias understands the basic meanings of "near" and "soon," etc. It is only the reading of preconceived ideas into the texts in which these words are found that forces interpreters to change the simplicity of common words into complexity or duplicity. When I say that you love your system more than truth, I do not imply that you do so willingly or even knowingly. But you have been conditioned by your system to refuse to acknowledge the very basic meanings of simple terms! "Near" and "soon" taken in their usual, common, everyday meanings will never be compatible with dispensationalism. To redefine them or even ignore them comes from an obstinence that clings tenaciously to something that is contrary to the obvious.

When the "generation of the fig tree" as it is understood by dispensationalists is stretched to its reasonable limits and beyond, perhaps then those caught up in the errors of dispenationalism will finally see what Jesus clearly meant! Dispensationalists before 1988 were firmly convinced that a generation was forty years. When 1988 came and went, they changed the limits of a generation. Perhaps it was actually 70 years. Two thousand eighteen will also come and go, and the term will again be redefined. Perhaps then a generation will mean 120 years. Few of "this" generation will live to see 2068. That is the current strength of futurism--it doesn't have to prove what hasn't yet happened! It will continue to redefine "generation" until its meaning becomes so ridiculous no one will any longer accept the futurist claims.

At this point, Whirlwind, you are content with your system and nothing will change your mind. You will not admit, as I first would not, that time words mean exactly what they always mean and that Jesus and His disciples clearly conveyed that He was coming back in that first-century generation. You have been taught a certain nature of that coming and a certain nature of the resurrection and the judgment that will not allow you to take time words at face value. Even though near really means near and soon really means soon, and deep in your heart of hearts you know they do, you cannot reconcile your preconceived ideas to them. When others point out that soon means soon and near means near, your first response is "when did that happen?" It did not happen the way you insist it must, therefore, soon cannot mean soon and near cannot mean near! When one finds himself, as I did, manipulating the simple and the normal to accommodates his concepts, it is time to re-evaluate those concepts. You are not there yet.

You continue to grab OT passages out of their contexts to make "this generation" mean "that" generation of a fig tree! You casually cast out any normalcy of time words by asserting that with God time has a different meaning so that when He speaks to us with terms such as near or soon, He really means to convey far or later--much later. Could not our God have spoken to us more plainly--or did He? You are still content with that type of twisting and manipulating--not even aware that you are doing so. When it is pointed out that in that very generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived the Gospel was preached in all the world, you, with a clear conscience and with all seriousness, acknowledge that to be true but then create some ridiculous aspect of "divine truth" and latter rain that must still be delivered to our world. Therefore, Jesus' words in Mark 13:10 have really not been fulfilled! This is unfounded desperation, Whirlwind. This is why I called you obstinate--so convinced of the "truth" of your views that you create that which is not there! Again, I do not say these things to be cruel or unduly harsh. But that is what you are doing, my friend. I speak as someone who has been there! Our views are always subordinate to the truth.

I do not hope to change your mind. I do hope, however, that I have made you aware of some things. And I hope that EVERY time you see a time word, you are given pause to reflect its true meaning and intent. I hope they begin to haunt you and trouble you as they did me until you come to the place where you stop twisting them and manipulating them to your own ends.

Love, in Christ, Matthew24:34

[/quote:216cusoj]


Thank you for taking time to write that Matthew and no...you didn't change my mind. There are too many obstacles written that, to me, show what you are teaching cannot be. What I have been considering is just what is the consequence of our different beliefs on this subject? Are we harmed spiritually in any way? Is knowing, as I do, that the millennium is yet future going to harm preterist for not believing that? Or, is knowing, as you do, that we are presently in the millennium, going to harm futurist? Is it a matter of salvation as long as we are prepared? [/quote]

Dear Whirlwind: Jesus did not go about telling His disciples things in a peculiar way. He was very straightforward when speaking to THEM directly. You choose not to see what is plainly there before you Again, you are not considering the context and the audience relevance. Jesus said "this generation" and He used that expression in the sense in which He ALWAYS used it. Look them up, Whirlwind. There are around twenty. Then consider what precedent you have for suddenly giving it a meaning He nowhere else gave it! His coming was THEN near. He told His disciples right there with Him that THEY were to learn the parable of the fig tree! All the things He had just predicted were to take place in THAT very generation. It is more than ironic to me that in light of this horrendous twisting of the Scriptures here by futurists, that futurists dare to turn around and accuse preterists of twisting the Scriptures! THIS generation in Matthew 24:34 means exactly what Jesus always intended it to mean--HIS generation; HIS contemporaries. If your system does not fit into the plain framework of the Bible, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your system!

You bring to the Bible preconceived ideas that you simply will not relinquish in light of the plain truths found there. You insist that OT Bible passages concerning Israel's return to the land have not been fulfilled, therefore, all the time indicators must be eradicated because they simply don't fit your scheme. You have been taught that the world will end, when, in fact, the Bible teaches no such thing. The disciples asked about the end of the age not the end of the world. The Greek is clearly aion and not kosmos. 2 Peter 3:8 does NOT speak of the burning of the earth but of the ending of the "elements" of that Old Covenant system of Judaism. But like genea, futurists do not search the other uses of "elements" (stoicheia) to see how it is used elsewhere. If they did, they would discover that it is NEVER used to represent the chemical make up of the earth.

But there was a world ending--it was the Jewish age of the physical Temple and the physical sacrifices and all the other symbolic and typological aspects of Judaism. The many shadows and types of the OT were to pass away in the light of the realities brought by the coming of Christ. He was the anti-type; He and His kingdom which is not of this world were the substance of ALL the shadows--including the land! The entire NT deals with the ending of that old age and the establishment of the new. If one does not see that, he will never understand. Hebrews 8 describes this transition--the "old" was made old because of the need for and the coming of the "new!" The Old Covenant was never meant to satisfy the demands of God. A new covenant (Jer. 31:31) was needed in which all would know Him--all who were circumcised in their hearts. Jesus brought that new covenant in His blood. The writer of Hebrews wrote that the old was growing old, becoming obsolete and was THEN ready to pass away. That is the end that is the subject of the NT!

Sadly, Whirlwind, you are not yet ready to leave your preconceived ideas behind. You will continue to struggle (at least I hope you do) with the time statements because you cannot fit your false understandings into them. You will continue to make simple terms such as "this generation" mean that generation. It is a serious thing to change the meanings of our Lord's words! You will continue to wrongly see that Bible prophecy finds its complete source and fulfillment in physical Israel. You will continue to misunderstand OT passages because your rigid literalism cannot be found in the proper events of the NT. You will continue to redefine or ignore plain time words such as those given in both the first and last chapters of the Revelation and attempt to seek fanciful, speculative fulfillments of past things and events in our future. John was clearly shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place because the time was THEN "near" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). You will continue your hermeneutical calisthenics and twist the Scriptures to your own end; and your loud cry, in spite of the plain time frame given, will continue to be "when did that happen?" Sadly, it will NEVER happen, Whirlwind, the way you think it will. Not today, not tomorrow, not EVER!

Jesus said, "Behold, I am coming SOON!" And He did, whether you can see it or not!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Dear Whirlwind: Jesus did not go about telling His disciples things in a peculiar way. He was very straightforward when speaking to THEM directly. You choose not to see what is plainly there before you Again, you are not considering the context and the audience relevance. Jesus said "this generation" and He used that expression in the sense in which He ALWAYS used it. Look them up, Whirlwind. There are around twenty. Then consider what precedent you have for suddenly giving it a meaning He nowhere else gave it! His coming was THEN near. He told His disciples right there with Him that THEY were to learn the parable of the fig tree! All the things He had just predicted were to take place in THAT very generation. It is more than ironic to me that in light of this horrendous twisting of the Scriptures here by futurists, that futurists dare to turn around and accuse preterists of twisting the Scriptures! THIS generation in Matthew 24:34 means exactly what Jesus always intended it to mean--HIS generation; HIS contemporaries. If your system does not fit into the plain framework of the Bible, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your system!

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: But the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

You bring to the Bible preconceived ideas that you simply will not relinquish in light of the plain truths found there. You insist that OT Bible passages concerning Israel's return to the land have not been fulfilled, therefore, all the time indicators must be eradicated because they simply don't fit your scheme. You have been taught that the world will end, when, in fact, the Bible teaches no such thing. The disciples asked about the end of the age not the end of the world. The Greek is clearly aion and not kosmos.

Yes...it is the age that will end. This age will not end until all prophecy has been fulfilled.

2 Peter 3:8 does NOT speak of the burning of the earth but of the ending of the "elements" of that Old Covenant system of Judaism. But like genea, futurists do not search the other uses of "elements" (stoicheia) to see how it is used elsewhere. If they did, they would discover that it is NEVER used to represent the chemical make up of the earth.

All evil things will be destroyed.

But there was a world ending--it was the Jewish age of the physical Temple and the physical sacrifices and all the other symbolic and typological aspects of Judaism. The many shadows and types of the OT were to pass away in the light of the realities brought by the coming of Christ. He was the anti-type; He and His kingdom which is not of this world were the substance of ALL the shadows--including the land! The entire NT deals with the ending of that old age and the establishment of the new. If one does not see that, he will never understand. Hebrews 8 describes this transition--the "old" was made old because of the need for and the coming of the "new!" The Old Covenant was never meant to satisfy the demands of God. A new covenant (Jer. 31:31) was needed in which all would know Him--all who were circumcised in their hearts. Jesus brought that new covenant in His blood. The writer of Hebrews wrote that the old was growing old, becoming obsolete and was THEN ready to pass away. That is the end that is the subject of the NT!

Sadly, Whirlwind, you are not yet ready to leave your preconceived ideas behind. You will continue to struggle (at least I hope you do) with the time statements because you cannot fit your false understandings into them. You will continue to make simple terms such as "this generation" mean that generation.

There is no struggle. The meaning is very clear. His Words are for us for all time until the end of this time.

It is a serious thing to change the meanings of our Lord's words! You will continue to wrongly see that Bible prophecy finds its complete source and fulfillment in physical Israel. You will continue to misunderstand OT passages because your rigid literalism cannot be found in the proper events of the NT. You will continue to redefine or ignore plain time words such as those given in both the first and last chapters of the Revelation and attempt to seek fanciful, speculative fulfillments of past things and events in our future. John was clearly shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place because the time was THEN "near" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). You will continue your hermeneutical calisthenics and twist the Scriptures to your own end; and your loud cry, in spite of the plain time frame given, will continue to be "when did that happen?" Sadly, it will NEVER happen, Whirlwind, the way you think it will. Not today, not tomorrow, not EVER!

Jesus said, "Behold, I am coming SOON!" And He did, whether you can see it or not!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Yes He did come "soon." Do you see that as it? Never again. Matthew, you're thinking is so foreign to me I truly can't comprehend it. We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

 

[Drew]

I am convinced that the parable of the fig tree is a cryptic warning of imminent judgement of the nation of Israel at the hands of the Romans. And that judgement was indeed carried out in 70 AD.