The Parable of the Fig Tree

[parousia70]

All evil things will be destroyed.

Annihilationism?
really?

 

[whirlwind]

I am convinced that the parable of the fig tree is a cryptic warning of imminent judgement of the nation of Israel at the hands of the Romans. And that judgement was indeed carried out in 70 AD.

Hi Drew,

In another topic "Ret" just wrote, and I agree, that Jerusalem was judged in 70AD...just as we are being judged as we speak. But....the parable of the fig tree isn't about that judgment (and Israel wasn't there...just the Jews were. )

The good and evil baskets of figs are still there so the end of the age has not yet arrived.

 

[parousia70]

I agree, that Jerusalem was judged in 70AD...

Interesting.
Where in scripture would you say that Judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70 was prophesied?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Dear Whirlwind: Jesus did not go about telling His disciples things in a peculiar way. He was very straightforward when speaking to THEM directly. You choose not to see what is plainly there before you Again, you are not considering the context and the audience relevance. Jesus said "this generation" and He used that expression in the sense in which He ALWAYS used it. Look them up, Whirlwind. There are around twenty. Then consider what precedent you have for suddenly giving it a meaning He nowhere else gave it! His coming was THEN near. He told His disciples right there with Him that THEY were to learn the parable of the fig tree! All the things He had just predicted were to take place in THAT very generation. It is more than ironic to me that in light of this horrendous twisting of the Scriptures here by futurists, that futurists dare to turn around and accuse preterists of twisting the Scriptures! THIS generation in Matthew 24:34 means exactly what Jesus always intended it to mean--HIS generation; HIS contemporaries. If your system does not fit into the plain framework of the Bible, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your system!

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: But the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

You bring to the Bible preconceived ideas that you simply will not relinquish in light of the plain truths found there. You insist that OT Bible passages concerning Israel's return to the land have not been fulfilled, therefore, all the time indicators must be eradicated because they simply don't fit your scheme. You have been taught that the world will end, when, in fact, the Bible teaches no such thing. The disciples asked about the end of the age not the end of the world. The Greek is clearly aion and not kosmos.

Yes...it is the age that will end. This age will not end until all prophecy has been fulfilled.


[quote:2awtcv53] 2 Peter 3:8 does NOT speak of the burning of the earth but of the ending of the "elements" of that Old Covenant system of Judaism. But like genea, futurists do not search the other uses of "elements" (stoicheia) to see how it is used elsewhere. If they did, they would discover that it is NEVER used to represent the chemical make up of the earth.

All evil things will be destroyed.

But there was a world ending--it was the Jewish age of the physical Temple and the physical sacrifices and all the other symbolic and typological aspects of Judaism. The many shadows and types of the OT were to pass away in the light of the realities brought by the coming of Christ. He was the anti-type; He and His kingdom which is not of this world were the substance of ALL the shadows--including the land! The entire NT deals with the ending of that old age and the establishment of the new. If one does not see that, he will never understand. Hebrews 8 describes this transition--the "old" was made old because of the need for and the coming of the "new!" The Old Covenant was never meant to satisfy the demands of God. A new covenant (Jer. 31:31) was needed in which all would know Him--all who were circumcised in their hearts. Jesus brought that new covenant in His blood. The writer of Hebrews wrote that the old was growing old, becoming obsolete and was THEN ready to pass away. That is the end that is the subject of the NT!

Sadly, Whirlwind, you are not yet ready to leave your preconceived ideas behind. You will continue to struggle (at least I hope you do) with the time statements because you cannot fit your false understandings into them. You will continue to make simple terms such as "this generation" mean that generation.

There is no struggle. The meaning is very clear. His Words are for us for all time until the end of this time.

It is a serious thing to change the meanings of our Lord's words! You will continue to wrongly see that Bible prophecy finds its complete source and fulfillment in physical Israel. You will continue to misunderstand OT passages because your rigid literalism cannot be found in the proper events of the NT. You will continue to redefine or ignore plain time words such as those given in both the first and last chapters of the Revelation and attempt to seek fanciful, speculative fulfillments of past things and events in our future. John was clearly shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place because the time was THEN "near" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). You will continue your hermeneutical calisthenics and twist the Scriptures to your own end; and your loud cry, in spite of the plain time frame given, will continue to be "when did that happen?" Sadly, it will NEVER happen, Whirlwind, the way you think it will. Not today, not tomorrow, not EVER!

Jesus said, "Behold, I am coming SOON!" And He did, whether you can see it or not!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Yes He did come "soon." Do you see that as it? Never again. Matthew, you're thinking is so foreign to me I truly can't comprehend it. We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject. [/quote:2awtcv53]

Whirlwind, I truly believe that you love the Lord and think you are rightly dividing His Word, but your continual twisting of plain words and passages is astonishing. You will never understand what you refuse to see! The Bible could clearly state that something was blue and you would find a way to make it say that it was red because you wanted it to be red. The Scriptures do not say what we want them to say--they say what they say. Jesus clearly and without ambiguity said to His disciples right there with Him--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." Your making THIS mean THAT is the same thing as insisting that something that is blue is actually red! We see what we want to see if we are not willing to see what is really there!

It is a waste of my time to communicate with such a mindset. God bless you, Whirlwind.

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

All evil things will be destroyed.

Annihilationism?
really?

I think so Parousia. What does it mean to you?

Matthew 24 wrote.....2 Peter 3:8 does NOT speak of the burning of the earth but of the ending of the "elements" of that Old Covenant system of Judaism. But like genea, futurists do not search the other uses of "elements" (stoicheia) to see how it is used elsewhere. If they did, they would discover that it is NEVER used to represent the chemical make up of the earth


I'm not agreeing or disagreeing to the "old covenant system of Judaism" part as I haven't given that any thought but I do agree with the rest. To me, the elements are the evil things of the world and they will be gone for the millennium until that last short period of time before the eternity.

 

[whirlwind]

I agree, that Jerusalem was judged in 70AD...

Interesting.
Where in scripture would you say that Judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70 was prophesied?

I didn't mean she was judged so much as she was punished in 70AD. There were many times Jerusalem was punished. But, the following could perhaps be considered a judgment....


Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me, until the time come when ye shall say, 'Blessed is He That cometh in the name of the Lord.' "

 

[Matthew24:34]

I agree, that Jerusalem was judged in 70AD...

Interesting.
Where in scripture would you say that Judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70 was prophesied?

I didn't mean she was judged so much as she was punished in 70AD. There were many times Jerusalem was punished. But, the following could perhaps be considered a judgment....


Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me, until the time come when ye shall say, 'Blessed is He That cometh in the name of the Lord.' "

Whirlwind: For what was she to be judged? She was pronounced guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. Those Jews of that day were as guilty of their forefathers of killing the prophets and those sent to them. Those very Jews of Jesus' day standing right there with Him would be responsible for His crucifixion; they themselves would continue the pattern of their forefathers by persecuting and killing first-century, pre-A. D. 70 saints! They were to fill up the measure of their fathers' guilt. When was that to happen? "Assuredly, I say to you, ALL these things will come upon THIS generation!" What generation? THIS generation--that generation in which Jesus was then living! The meaning of that expression is clear here and it is clear in Matthew 24:34. ALL the things which Jesus spoke to those scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites" right there with Him were to happen to THEM in their lifetime! ALL the things spoken to those disciples standing right there with Jesus were to happen in THEIR lifetime! THAT is the meaning and significance of THIS generation. Jesus ALWAYS and without exception used it to refer to His contemporaries. ALWAYS! The parable of the fig tree concerns that time frame and none other!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind: For what was she to be judged? She was pronounced guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. Those Jews of that day were as guilty of their forefathers of killing the prophets and those sent to them. Those very Jews of Jesus' day standing right there with Him would be responsible for His crucifixion; they themselves would continue the pattern of their forefathers by persecuting and killing first-century, pre-A. D. 70 saints! They were to fill up the measure of their fathers' guilt. When was that to happen? "Assuredly, I say to you, ALL these things will come upon THIS generation!" What generation? THIS generation--that generation in which Jesus was then living! The meaning of that expression is clear here and it is clear in Matthew 24:34. ALL the things which Jesus spoke to those scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites" right there with Him were to happen to THEM in their lifetime! ALL the things spoken to those disciples standing right there with Jesus were to happen in THEIR lifetime! THAT is the meaning and significance of THIS generation. Jesus ALWAYS and without exception used it to refer to His contemporaries. ALWAYS! The parable of the fig tree concerns that time frame and none other!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

In another thread, Day of the Unknown Hour, I used the same verse as above, [Luke 13:34], to explain what I believe is a deeper meaning of the verse. As you know, there are different levels to understanding Scripture. Someone once told me that they can have different meanings, according to the topic, but will never conflict. Be that as it may....

Paul was sent to teach to three groups and in doing so he taught on three levels......

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

One of the levels in the verse about Jerusalem is that she was the city of Jerusalem...a literal city. The deeper meaning...that we are to understand, is that Jerusalem is us. It is us that kill the prophets, as explained in the other thread. So, it was not those Jews standing before Him that were guilty of killing the prophets....nor were the true Jews guilty of His crucifixion.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man That hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those were the so called "Jews" seeking to kill Him. Just as the so called "Christians" seek to kill us, spiritually. And, we allow it. We sit and listen to them and take it all in...nodding our heads in agreement to their deception instead of allowing Him to teach us.

But, although it was those that "say they are Jews and are not," that sought to kill Him. They weren't the ones that did the job. It was us. It was our sins that He died for. That brings greater understanding to.....

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The great city isn't one location...it isn't Jerusalem, Rome, America, Babylon. It is the world and all it's wickedness. He was crucified for our wickedness.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My People, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


So....no Matthew. It is not to those of that generation. As He died for the sins of all of us, of all generations. We are the "this generation" He was speaking to...no matter when our generation may happen to be.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Whirlwind: For what was she to be judged? She was pronounced guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. Those Jews of that day were as guilty of their forefathers of killing the prophets and those sent to them. Those very Jews of Jesus' day standing right there with Him would be responsible for His crucifixion; they themselves would continue the pattern of their forefathers by persecuting and killing first-century, pre-A. D. 70 saints! They were to fill up the measure of their fathers' guilt. When was that to happen? "Assuredly, I say to you, ALL these things will come upon THIS generation!" What generation? THIS generation--that generation in which Jesus was then living! The meaning of that expression is clear here and it is clear in Matthew 24:34. ALL the things which Jesus spoke to those scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites" right there with Him were to happen to THEM in their lifetime! ALL the things spoken to those disciples standing right there with Jesus were to happen in THEIR lifetime! THAT is the meaning and significance of THIS generation. Jesus ALWAYS and without exception used it to refer to His contemporaries. ALWAYS! The parable of the fig tree concerns that time frame and none other!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

In another thread, Day of the Unknown Hour, I used the same verse as above, [Luke 13:34], to explain what I believe is a deeper meaning of the verse. As you know, there are different levels to understanding Scripture. Someone once told me that they can have different meanings, according to the topic, but will never conflict. Be that as it may....

Paul was sent to teach to three groups and in doing so he taught on three levels......

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

One of the levels in the verse about Jerusalem is that she was the city of Jerusalem...a literal city. The deeper meaning...that we are to understand, is that Jerusalem is us. It is us that kill the prophets, as explained in the other thread. So, it was not those Jews standing before Him that were guilty of killing the prophets....nor were the true Jews guilty of His crucifixion.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man That hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those were the so called "Jews" seeking to kill Him. Just as the so called "Christians" seek to kill us, spiritually. And, we allow it. We sit and listen to them and take it all in...nodding our heads in agreement to their deception instead of allowing Him to teach us.

But, although it was those that "say they are Jews and are not," that sought to kill Him. They weren't the ones that did the job. It was us. It was our sins that He died for. That brings greater understanding to.....

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The great city isn't one location...it isn't Jerusalem, Rome, America, Babylon. It is the world and all it's wickedness. He was crucified for our wickedness.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My People, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


So....no Matthew. It is not to those of that generation. As He died for the sins of all of us, of all generations. We are the "this generation" He was speaking to...no matter when our generation may happen to be.

Whirlwind: You are hopeless when it comes to plain words! Have you ever, ever, ever looked up the other uses of the expression "this generation." Jesus ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use it to refer to His contemporaries.

There can be no profitable communication with people who REFUSE to see the obvious. Again, you will never come to the knowledge of the truth--it stares you right in the face and you ignore or twist it to your own ends.

I'm no longer wasting my time with you, Whirlwind. If someone shows you a red shirt and you think that it is blue, you will continue to try in every way you can, in spite of the clear evidence before you, to make it a blue shirt! If Jesus had said to His disciples right there with Him, "I am coming back in A. D. 70," you would still argue with HIM and claim that He has still not returned. Because the bottom line is this, Whirlwind--your argument and your disagreement is NOT with preterism, it is with Our Lord.

God bless you, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind: You are hopeless when it comes to plain words! Have you ever, ever, ever looked up the other uses of the expression "this generation." Jesus ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use it to refer to His contemporaries.

There can be no profitable communication with people who REFUSE to see the obvious. Again, you will never come to the knowledge of the truth--it stares you right in the face and you ignore or twist it to your own ends.

I'm no longer wasting my time with you, Whirlwind. If someone shows you a red shirt and you think that it is blue, you will continue to try in every way you can, in spite of the clear evidence before you, to make it a blue shirt! If Jesus had said to His disciples right there with Him, "I am coming back in A. D. 70," you would still argue with HIM and claim that He has still not returned. Because the bottom line is this, Whirlwind--your argument and your disagreement is NOT with preterism, it is with Our Lord.

God bless you, Matthew24:34

And may our Father continue to bless you to Matthew.........Whirlwind :yes

 

[whirlwind]

I thought back on this thread today as I was....canning fig preserves. :yes In case anyone wonders how they turned out...they look a little runny but no one ever accused me of being Susie Homemaker. I thought of something to add to this topic, about the horticulture of the fig tree in terms of it's taste and edibility.

There is a certain fig, the most desirous of them all, called the Smyrna Fig. This name, I'm sure, rings a bell with all readers here. It is the name of one of the two churches that our Lord approved of....

Revelation 2:8-11 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna wite; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Smyrna was not found righteous because of their geographic location or their denomination. Smyrna was found right because it knew those who claimed to be Jews and are not. Here we find the phrase for the ones that have ears to hear. Does not the Smyrna Fig message have great meaning here?

This is as compared to the Capri fig which is simply inedible. It is wild and terrible tasting...they are the figs Jeremiah said were "evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."

A fig is not planted as a seed but is set out as a shoot. This is representative of a nation and this goes back to the parable fo the fig tree which deals with a nation in part. Many people don't consider the fig to be a blossoming fruit but that's what a fig is made up of. It is flowered by a fig wasp that carries over from the Capri fig. The blossom is on the inside of the fig. A UCLA article identifies this as a problem initially in California for Smyrna fig growers. It is quite symbolic of the lack of understanding of the parable of the fig tree. You need to know the horticulture behind it because WE ARE THE GENERATION OF THE FIG TREE!

There are both good and bad figs (as the parable in Jeremiah 24 sets forth) but they are a necessity in the pattern that God has seen fit to create. The wasps don't know how to "test the fruit," but we should!