The parable of the Sower - believing is the condition for a person to be saved.

[JLB]

What comes first believing or salvation?

• Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


In this passage, Jesus teaches the key to salvation is to believe.

All those in this parable heard the message of salvation.

Only those who believed were saved.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I respect your take on scripture and your faith.

As you know I lean towards predestination etc. it’s my understanding of the Bible that salvation is God’s work in our lives. And so…

I always liked the parable of the sower because it encourages the believer to be good soil and to avoid the snares of Satan and the world and also to be rooted.

I relate it to the branches of the vine. Abide in me and I shall abide in you. In me ye shall bear much fruit.

An acorn dies to become an oak tree…ye must die to be born again…

Thing is I think salvation is about Jesus Christ calling His people…the sheep who know His voice…to Him. And no one can snatch a single soul from His hands…

 

[Hidden In Him]

What comes first believing or salvation?

• Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


In this passage, Jesus teaches the key to salvation is to believe.

All those in this parable heard the message of salvation.

Only those who believed were saved.

I agree. As a prooftext against teachings like OSAS and Calvinist understandings, I find the rest of the parable that much more convincing. The idea that one can receive the word of God with joy and yet not be born again, who does that? Who reacts to receiving the word of God joyfully without the Holy Spirit doing a work in their hearts? And yet the text states that because they do not continue to give themselves to the word until it truly takes deep root, they fall away and die. The very nature of the parable depicts spiritual GROWTH, and specifically as a result of receiving the word of God. But yet they die away spiritually despite that growth because they failed to count the cost of what it takes to endure till the end.

 

[JLB]

I find the rest of the parable that much more convincing. The idea that one can receive the word of God with joy and yet not be born again, who does that? Who reacts to receiving the word of God joyfully

It’s plainly the joy of salvation.

 

[JLB]

I agree. As a prooftext against teachings like OSAS and Calvinist understandings, I find the rest of the parable that much more convincing. The idea that one can receive the word of God with joy and yet not be born again, who does that? Who reacts to receiving the word of God joyfully without the Holy Spirit doing a work in their hearts? And yet the text states that because they do not continue to give themselves to the word until it truly takes deep root, they fall away and die. The very nature of the parable depicts spiritual GROWTH, and specifically as a result of receiving the word of God. But yet they die away spiritually despite that growth because they failed to count the cost of what it takes to endure till the end.

Yes sir.

In the parable of the sower, the second group does indeed become saved and are persecuted BECAUSE they are saved and end up falling away, which contextually means as a Jew they return to Judaism; a religion that believes Jesus is a false prophet and teacher.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I agree. As a prooftext against teachings like OSAS and Calvinist understandings, I find the rest of the parable that much more convincing. The idea that one can receive the word of God with joy and yet not be born again, who does that? Who reacts to receiving the word of God joyfully without the Holy Spirit doing a work in their hearts? And yet the text states that because they do not continue to give themselves to the word until it truly takes deep root, they fall away and die. The very nature of the parable depicts spiritual GROWTH, and specifically as a result of receiving the word of God. But yet they die away spiritually despite that growth because they failed to count the cost of what it takes to endure till the end.

Prooftext against eternal security and Calvinism? I don't think so. I've debated both for many years and I never one time (until now) saw one person reference the parable of the sower as proof that their opposition to the doctrine of eternal security or Calvinism is justified.

 

[Hidden In Him]

In the parable of the sower, the second group does indeed become saved and are persecuted BECAUSE they are saved and end up falling away

Exactly. I had not thought of it, but how does persecution arise against someone who doesn't even truly believe? Of course, the usual response when the parables are discussed is that they are not supposed to be taken so... literally? Seriously? I forget what word is used, LoL. But it's scripture for Heavens's sakes, and He taught them for a reason. The implications make OSAS completely and totally illogical IMO.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Prooftext against eternal security and Calvinism? I don't think so. I've debated both for many years and I never one time (until now) saw one person reference the parable of the sower as proof that their opposition to the doctrine of eternal security or Calvinism is justified.

Well welcome to the present, LoL.

I tend to avoid such debates because it just goes round and round to no good end, and the same might be true here. But if you wish to discuss the Parable upon which this thread is based, what would you reply to the arguments raised by the OP and Posts 3, 5 and 7. Here is the passage again.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

 

[JLB]

• Prooftext against eternal security and Calvinism? I don't think so. I've debated both for many years and I never one time (until now) saw one person reference the parable of the sower as proof that their opposition to the doctrine of eternal security or Calvinism is justified.

You can learn something new everyday.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Romans 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

The condition for salvation is to believe.


Do you agree?

 

[JLB]

I forget what word is used, LoL.

Word = the gospel message of salvation.

The very thing that must be believed in order to be saved.

 

[JLB]

As you know I lean towards predestination etc. it’s my understanding of the Bible that salvation is God’s work in our lives. And so…

Yes predestination is real.

What God means by predestination and what man means by predestination may indeed be two entirely different things.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Well welcome to the present, LoL.

Yes, that is funny.

I tend to avoid such debates because it just goes round and round to no good end, and the same might be true here.

That is my experience and suspicion also.

But if you wish to discuss the Parable upon which this thread is based, what would you reply to the arguments raised by the OP and Posts 3, 5 and 7. Here is the passage again.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

I am not inclined to argue about eternal security or election for the reason you stated above. But I would argue that your comments in posts 3, 5, and 7 are dependent on the meaning of one phrase in the parable -- "lest they should believe and be saved" (Lk 8:12). This phrase must be about the eternal salvation of our souls for your arguments to hold water.

To that end, I would argue there are many instances where believe ("πιστεύω") and be saved ("σῴζω") are used together and clearly speak of a different kind of deliverance than eternal salvation. One such instance is found just a few lines down from this parable in Luke where a woman's flow of blood stopped when she touched Jesus' garment...

48 And He said to her, “Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith ("πίστις") has made you well ("σῴζω"). Go in peace.” (Lk 8:48)​

I would put the "Parable of the Sower" together with the "Parable of the Lamp" that immediately follows it. The punchline there is, "Therefore take heed how you hear" (Lk 8:18). So I see these parables as giving insight into the conversations each one is having with God, the imperative to trust what He says, the destructive outside influences, and the value of a heart prepared to receive what He says. I see that God speaks many "seeds of truth" to me personally, and that when received, believed, watered, and nurtured, each one grows in my heart and produces many more seeds of truth that are also valuable.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You can learn something new everyday.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Romans 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

The condition for salvation is to believe.

Do you agree?

Yes, I agree with you. God created the paradigm that He would save everyone who believes...

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

But I think the Calvinists argue that God determined in eternity past who would believe.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would put the "Parable of the Sower" together with the "Parable of the Lamp" that immediately follows it. The punchline there is, "Therefore take heed how you hear" (Lk 8:18). So I see these parables as giving insight into the conversations each one is having with God, the imperative to trust what He says, the destructive outside influences, and the value of a heart prepared to receive what He says. I see that God speaks many "seeds of truth" to me personally, and that when received, believed, watered, and nurtured, each one grows in my heart and produces many more seeds of truth that are also valuable.

I appreciate your courteous response, New Life.

To me this is just going back to the same place. If the message of the parable is simply to trust what He says, and to receive the "seeds of truth," then it goes right back to receiving the primary message He preached, which is that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no man comes to the Father except by Him.

The "seed" referred to in this parable is the word of God, and since all scripture is God-breathed, you again come back to the primary messages of Scripture, one of which is being saved from the wrath to come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so I don't think your interpretation holds much weight.

But blessings anyway. And I wish you a great Sunday regardless.
- H

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I appreciate your courteous response, New Life.

To me this is just going back to the same place. If the message of the parable is simply to trust what He says, and to receive the "seeds of truth," then it goes right back to receiving the primary message He preached, which is that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no man comes to the Father except by Him.

The "seed" referred to in this parable is the word of God, and since all scripture is God-breathed, you again come back to the primary messages of Scripture, one of which is being saved from the wrath to come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so I don't think your interpretation holds much weight.

But blessings anyway. And I wish you a great Sunday regardless.
- H

My interpretation brings us back around to your interpretation so my interpretation doesn't hold much weight?

God speaks to us on many subjects, not just the subject of salvation. And He speaks to us directly, not just through intermediaries who penned our Scriptures. Concerning the subject of salvation, Scripture tells us that He speaks to each of us directly and that those who hear and learn from Him go to Jesus for salvation (John 6:45). Concerning the subject of believing false doctrine, Scripture tells us that God speaks to us directly concerning "all things" and that listening to Him will guard our hearts and minds against false doctrine (1 John 2:27). Concerning the deep things of God which only God Himself knows, Scripture tells us that He came to live in our hearts in order that He may personally teach us those things (1 Cor 2). In every respect, as Scripture says, the fruitfulness of our Christian lives is fully dependent on hearing Jesus, trusting what He says, and nurturing His words until they produce fruit (John 15:1-11). Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is important (Mt 4:4).

​

So no, I don't think my interpretation leads us back to your interpretation. And as to whether it holds weight, I will let God be the judge of that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

My interpretation brings us back around to your interpretation so my interpretation doesn't hold much weight?

God speaks to us on many subjects, not just the subject of salvation. And He speaks to us directly, not just through intermediaries who penned our Scriptures. Concerning the subject of salvation, Scripture tells us that He speaks to each of us directly and that those who hear and learn from Him go to Jesus for salvation (John 6:45). Concerning the subject of believing false doctrine, Scripture tells us that God speaks to us directly concerning "all things" and that listening to Him will guard our hearts and minds against false doctrine (1 John 2:27). Concerning the deep things of God which only God Himself knows, Scripture tells us that He came to live in our hearts in order that He may personally teach us those things (1 Cor 2). In every respect, as Scripture says, the fruitfulness of our Christian lives is fully dependent on hearing Jesus, trusting what He says, and nurturing His words until they produce fruit (John 15:1-11). Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is important (Mt 4:4).

​

So no, I don't think my interpretation leads us back to your interpretation. And as to whether it holds weight, I will let God be the judge of that.

If the seed is the word of God in this parable, how can you exclude the message of salvation? Or include everything BUT the message of salvation? Seems like you are running to complications to your theology.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think that when I read this parable my assumption is that it is for believers. So Jesus is saying…in my work a day not a theologian understanding…

That readers…believers…should take care of losing their faith in the snares of the devil and the cares of the world .

Believers should nurture their relationship with Jesus Christ and get rooted because otherwise they will not persevere.

And even though I believe that God is ultimately behind salvation from beginning to completion I also think that as a believer I have a certain freedom in Christ to do better at life and facilitate God’s work in my life not act as a hindrance and…

Ugh I don’t see much point in debating how one gets saved or what keeps one in Christ…

But I don’t think this parable is proof that salvation is a personal choice made with free will.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

If the seed is the word of God in this parable, how can you exclude the message of salvation? Or include everything BUT the message of salvation? Seems like you are running to complications to your theology.

Your interpretation makes it about salvation to the exclusion of every other topic God discusses with us. Mine includes every topic He discusses with us, including salvation (see my previous post for details).

No, my theology centers on the God who lives in our hearts. It is not so shallow that a parable may upend it because I am confident that God will correct me if I get it wrong.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Your interpretation makes it about salvation to the exclusion of every other topic God discusses with us.

I think it deals heavily with salvation because as JLB pointed out a few times already, it begins with a reference to believing and being saved, and then deals with those who fall away during times of persecution, and by do not end up being saved.

No, my theology centers on the God who lives in our hearts. It is not so shallow that a parable may upend it because I am confident that God will correct me if I get it wrong.

New Life, this is what I always end up encountering. In one way or another, the parables get dismissed as not to be taken as seriously as the rest of the word of God, because an increasingly close analysis makes people with certain fixed theological stances increasingly uncomfortable. Not saying that's where you are but I see this time and again for whatever reason, and I don't think that's the right approach to be taking regarding scripture.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I think it deals heavily with salvation because as JLB pointed out a few times already, it begins with a reference to believing and being saved, and then deals with those who fall away during times of persecution, and by do not end up being saved.

I addressed that point already. "Believe and be saved" is not always about eternal salvation. I could have said, but didn't, that people are not persecuted only because they believe in Jesus. For example, some people are persecuted because they have a different view on a parable. Example:

New Life, this is what I always end up encountering. In one way or another, the parables get dismissed as not to be taken as seriously as the rest of the word of God, because an increasingly close analysis makes people with certain fixed theological stances increasingly uncomfortable. Not saying that's where you are but I see this time and again for whatever reason, and I don't think that's the right approach to be taking regarding scripture.

Take a look at what you're saying. Every time you encounter a person that does not hold your view of a parable you know it is because they dismiss the parables and don't take them as seriously as the rest of "the word of God" (as if "the word of God" refers only to the Bible). In adition, you presume that your expert analysis of parables is so irrefutable that people "with certain fixed theological stances" are made inceasingly uncomfortable by your analysis.

You are correct, however, that none of this applies to me (though there would have been no need to say any of this if you didn't think it might apply to me).