The Pill Kills

[Caroline H]

I am unsure about when the soul is put into a body, as that is something only God knows. I have reservations about stopping the process of life once it has begun. Regardless of whether a zygote has a soul or not, it is still a life because it is growing and developing. If God allowed it to form I would not want to interfere with His will.

Animal asked this question

So why do the majority of pregnancies end in faultless miscarriage?

I don't know, but I believe that God is sovereign and has reasons for allowing things like that to happen. Not to mention, if sin caused death and we still live in a sinful world, I would think that things like that would happen because this world is no longer perfect. If it happens naturally, then it happens. But who are we to pick and choose? It's kind of like saying "well, hundreds of people die everyday, so what's wrong with selectively killing one or two out of convenience?"

 

[Silver Bullet]

DNA contains huge areas of "wasted space" - base pairs that do not code any proteins at all. Thus, a base pair mutation here and there in these areas would not be expected to result in different proteins being transcribed between the 2 twins, and therefore, no difference between the functional DNA of the 2 human beings. Of course, this only applies to the base pair mutation(s) that happen in non-functional DNA, though there doesn't seem to be any special reason to me to believe that these changes must always happen in some functional parts of the DNA.

I think I just don't know enough about molecular biology to be writing what I wrote in this paragraph. Scientist are finding more and more significance to what were thought to be non-coding portions of DNA all the time. It is incredibly complex.

I'd like to retract that paragraph if I could.

SB

 

[Silver Bullet]

Let me give you (animal) and silver bullet a few more simple reasons as to why life actually does begin at conception.

Psalm 7 verse 14 says, "Behold, the wicked man conceives evil, and is pregnant with mischief, and brings forth lies."

Notice how the words "conceives", and "pregnant" are directly linked. To be "pregnant" means that you are "Carrying developing offspring within the body."

And what is Offspring? "Children or young of a particular parent or progenitor."
(both definitions are courtesy of dictionary.com)

Plus, the very word of conception guys means, "the inception (or beginning) of life."

Guys, there is too much evidence to show that the zygote or embryo is indeed a human being, and that is proven in Sacred Scripture and in science. And practically every Christian institution upholds that life truly does begin at conception.

So by your words you are going against science,practically every Christian institution (who have studied the bible vigorously and more thoroughly then you and me), and Sacred Scripture.
It's logical that life begins at conception. Think about it.

It makes sense.

I honestly don't see what pearl of wisdom related to this subject could possibly come from the mere fact that the words "conception" and "pregnant", as they relate to a man I might add, are used in the same sentence in the Bible.

Obviously life begins at conception, but what is not obvious is that that which is alive at that moment is a full human being. I think you're mixing these 2 concepts up. It has the potential to be a full human being, but I can't understand how anyone could say that it is already a full human being.

americanbulldog, your position is just the opinion of your "faith". There is no proof whatsoever of your claim that a zygote is a full human being in anything you have written.

Please present the scientific proof you mentioned in your post that a zygote is a full human being.

SB

 

[animal]

Your DNA distinguishes you from other people, so yes, making you you. DNA can only match up to 99.9%. That leaves a .01% margin for differences.

But supposing for a second that identical twins have more than 99.9% similarity in DNA. What would differentiate these two individuals? My guess would be their souls.

Identical twins have identical DNA. What's different about their souls? And did they receive their souls at the point the blastocyst split into two? That would have meant as a zygote they ..it was soulless. Maybe the soul splits with the blastocyst? No then they would have identical souls..

 

[JoJo]

Identical twins have identical DNA.

Not according to recent studies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/healt ... .html?_r=1

What's different about their souls? And did they receive their souls at the point the blastocyst split into two? That would have meant as a zygote they ..it was soulless. Maybe the soul splits with the blastocyst? No then they would have identical souls..

Should research be wrong and identical twins share 100% identical DNA, I suppose that since the zygote also houses the future ambriotic sac and placenta, it could also contain two souls. I mean, these are God's creations we're talking about. He would have known whether that zygote was going to split into two distinct human beings.

 

[MarkT]

You are not your body so you never become you. You are always you.

As for abortion and the pill, I agree they are evil. But let's look at it as a stumbling block or a snare by which the wicked are taken, and let us warn the wicked that those who do such things deserve death. I think this evil is evidence that the wrath of God has fallen on the ones who hate God and deny the truth that they can't see what they are doing. We must warn them of the day of wrath which is to come, and tell them to repent of their evil doings.

 

[animal]

That's a study of mutation and phenotype or gene expression and that can be altered by environmental factors which obviously must take place after a blastocyst splits. I'm not sure the environment has much effect on a soul.. Or how anyone could possibly know that.

 

[animal]

I don't know, but I believe that God is sovereign and has reasons for allowing things like that to happen. Not to mention, if sin caused death and we still live in a sinful world, I would think that things like that would happen because this world is no longer perfect. If it happens naturally, then it happens. But who are we to pick and choose? It's kind of like saying "well, hundreds of people die everyday, so what's wrong with selectively killing one or two out of convenience?"

He allowed for the creation of the pill

And a zygote is still just a cell. With an ovum and a little fanagaling we could turn any cell in your body into another you. Every time you shower you're rinsing billions of potential identical yous down the drain.

 

[Silver Bullet]

That's a study of mutation and phenotype or gene expression and that can be altered by environmental factors which obviously must take place after a blastocyst splits. I'm not sure the environment has much effect on a soul.. Or how anyone could possibly know that.

That's it: the differences in the DNA of twins develop after formation of the zygote, and probably the majority or all of them occur after the first division.

JoJo: your DNA has changed by 0.01% since your dad's sperm joined with your mom's egg. If, as you have argued, your DNA is what defines you, then are you a different person than the one you were at the moment of conception on that grounds?

This line of reasoning is preposterous.

The only argument that Christans have on this topic relates to the "soul", which is itself an article of "faith". There is no evidence of the soul, just as there is no evidence of the existence of God, Jesus' virgin birth, etc. All of these Christian dogmas are just that: dogma.

SB

 

[Caroline H]

I don't know, but I believe that God is sovereign and has reasons for allowing things like that to happen. Not to mention, if sin caused death and we still live in a sinful world, I would think that things like that would happen because this world is no longer perfect. If it happens naturally, then it happens. But who are we to pick and choose? It's kind of like saying "well, hundreds of people die everyday, so what's wrong with selectively killing one or two out of convenience?"

He allowed for the creation of the pill

And a zygote is still just a cell. With an ovum and a little fanagaling we could turn any cell in your body into another you. Every time you shower you're rinsing billions of potential identical yous down the drain.

He allowed Hitler to murder millions of people too. Just because God "allows" things to take place doesn't mean He condones them. God doesn't go around putting a stop to everything wicked...at least not yet

And rinsing off skin cells is no where near the equivalent to destroying zygotes, and you know that. If left in the right environment skin cells, or any other cell in the body, will not develop into a person. Zygotes have the full potential to become people, sperm do not and eggs do not and other cells do not. That is the reason that I think it is wrong.

The only argument that Christans have on this topic relates to the "soul", which is itself an article of "faith". There is no evidence of the soul, just as there is no evidence of the existence of God, Jesus' virgin birth, etc. All of these Christian dogmas are just that: dogma.

I have said that I don't know when the soul is given to a person. My argument is not one about when there is a soul, it is about whether or not we have the right to interfere with life once it has begun. It is alive whether it has a soul or not, and it isn't just some potential animal or plant or cancer, it is a potential human.

 

[Silver Bullet]

My argument is not one about when there is a soul, it is about whether or not we have the right to interfere with life once it has begun. It is alive whether it has a soul or not, and it isn't just some potential animal or plant or cancer, it is a potential human.

We interfere with life all the time. We do so when we vote for political parties that are against universal health care. We do so when we vote to limit the most promising lines of medical research available to us. We do so when we offer antibiotics to someone with pneumonia even though the antibiotic itself could kill the person.

The zygote is a microscopic cluster of cells with no nervous system, a cluster that is itself much smaller than just the brain of a fly. You would have no problem swatting a bothersome fly because you either don't think that the fly can appreciate well-being or suffering or you don't care that it might. This is the reason why you wouldn't strangle a puppy that was bothering you: you are aware that the puppy has a complex nervous system and can appreciate well-being and suffering to an important extent. Nevertheless, you choose to always side with the microscopic cluster of cells that is a zygote over the full human being that the sexually active female who wants to use the pill is.

If you choose to side with the zygote, I think that's fine for you. Nothing about what anyone here has argued should allow this particular personal view to be forced on others though, especially women who don't agree with you and want to use the pill.

SB

 

[Caroline H]

Is anyone here trying to force their opinion on others? I don't thinks so. All I am doing is stating my beliefs.

Nevertheless, you choose to always side with the microscopic cluster of cells that is a zygote over the full human being that the sexually active female who wants to use the pill is.

So my support of the zygote means that I would rather see a woman die than a cluster of cells? I don't know where you get that

 

[animal]

caromurp, out of curiosity what's your view on embryonic stem cell research?

 

[Cornelius]

You became you after 24 years of life experience? No, you received your genetic code during the zygote stage. How was that not you?

My genes make me me? So my identical twin is also.. me? Of course not. When it comes down to it a zygote is still just a cell.

Exactly.

SB

Maybe a better question would be: When did your life begin ? When was the moment when life started ?

 

[Caroline H]

caromurp, out of curiosity what's your view on embryonic stem cell research?

I am against it. There are other ways to do stem-cell research that don't involve embryos.

 

[JoJo]

animal and Silver Bullet, talking to you guys is like running on a treadmill. I get nowhere and it gets tiresome. Good luck to you both.

 

[Carol Lowery]

I'm confused........how can an egg [not yet fertilized] be aborting a child? If it inhibits ovalation/conception/implantation, then what is the difference of a man wearing a condom, or spilling his seed on the sheets? Majority of men do it all the time with their seed [not to be crude], so every seed that hits the floor, or a shower drain is an abortion? If we want to get technical....seed is life. So all masterbaiters are murderers? And what is the difference between a man spilling his seed on the floor and a women spilling her seed out with a pill? Condom? Pill? There's a difference? I mean what's fair for the goose, should be fair for the gander. So why wasn't men mentioned being involved/sharing in this responsibility too?

 

[Imagican]

Bible Belt SC eh? He he he.

You are absolutely correct in that efforts that we make to exert OUR will is contradictory to God's WILL. Amazing how easy we find it to 'speak' in one manner and ACT in another. So many 'play the game' and have no conception of what God and His Son have to offer.

But we have been told that we MUST follow the commandments of Christ in order to receive that which is offered. And ALL that we do that separates us from the love of God cannot possibly be worth it in the 'long run'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[inhopeofglory]

I'm confused........how can an egg [not yet fertilized] be aborting a child?

The OP's point is that the Pill prevents implantation, which thus kills a fertilized egg (and thus ends the life of the child). Prevention of ovulation and conception, the primary methods by which the Pill works, isn't the issue. The problem is the potential prevention of implantation if fertilization does occur.

 

[animal]

animal and Silver Bullet, talking to you guys is like running on a treadmill. I get nowhere and it gets tiresome. Good luck to you both.

Believe me it's no different for us.