The Pill Kills

[JoJo]

animal and Silver Bullet, talking to you guys is like running on a treadmill. I get nowhere and it gets tiresome. Good luck to you both.

Believe me it's no different for us.

Actually, there is a huge difference. The difference is that I am not in an Atheist forum posting my opinions and trying to dispute their beliefs.

 

[animal]

I'm just trying to make sure you have a good reason to believe what you believe.

 

[JoJo]

I'm just trying to make sure you have a good reason to believe what you believe.

Thanks for your concern. But I'm quite all right receiving God's love, care, protection, forgiveness and eternal place in heaven (just to name a few aspects of the love relationship I have with God).

Patronizing questions and arguments against faith do not impact my own feelings about my faith, nor do they cause me to doubt my faith. Satan has been trying to do that for years and it hasn't worked. He has thrown all sorts of roadblocks and arrows and thorns at me, attempting to sway me to turn away from my precious Lord. My firmness has only caused him to fight harder with bigger weapons. But still I remain faithful to my Savior because He is my life and my love.

I will never be able to prove God or faith to you. As I've said before, this is a love relationship that is beyond explaining to those who have never experienced it. I pray you will one day experience it.

 

[Carol Lowery]

Beautiful Jo Jo.........just beautiful honey! I was one of those atheist for 43 years, and our Lord snatched me up with HIS love, gave me the Truth, changed me instantly, and my life has been for HIM ever since. HE is diffinately Truth of all things. I am honored our Lord loved me from the gates of hell, and broke the talons the enemy had in me, and rescue me with such loving tenderness and mighty power.

I too....pray and in agreement with you Jo Jo for Animal to be bless with the presence of God and salvation. You know what our Lord says when two or more are in agreement, and WHO is in the mist of us and what ever I ask in my Saviors name shall be done.....and HE has'nt failed me yet. I declare it so in the mighty name of Jesus, and by the power of HIS blood that was shed....Amen.


Animal...for 43 years I lived a occult life of many evil deeds and evil tools at/by my hand...casting curses that came to pass. I hope in Christ honey that you don't go for 43 years like I did before the Truth set me free. Believe me, this once very active in the occult person was given a Truth from God that when HE called me, there was no denying WHO HE was......to the point that the day HE saved me, as proof had me speaking Hebrew with witnesses to my spoken language who came from Jordan the Holy Lands, who recognized my language.....a language I've never spoke in my life before. Who had me quoting scriptures from a Book I never read. Who instantly delivered me from "several" 25-30 years of addictions with absolute no withdraws. Addictions that if I had stopped on my own, I would have several years of treatment and AA meetings.

I'm not going to boogle you with this and try to convince you otherwise except in speaking the Truth as I have now. My testimony is here CF for you to see where HE brought me from, if you so choose to be interested. I just hope in Christ that one day you should know HIS love.....GBU

 

[Carol Lowery]

Bible Belt SC eh? He he he.

You are absolutely correct in that efforts that we make to exert OUR will is contradictory to God's WILL. Amazing how easy we find it to 'speak' in one manner and ACT in another. So many 'play the game' and have no conception of what God and His Son have to offer.

But we have been told that we MUST follow the commandments of Christ in order to receive that which is offered. And ALL that we do that separates us from the love of God cannot possibly be worth it in the 'long run'.

Blessings,

MEC

Thank you.........percisely my thoughts. Whats the difference, seed is life! We're interferring with God's will. How many lives have been denied from God's will to exist? It was just confusing to consider one, and not the other too. Thanks MEC

 

[JoJo]

Beautiful Jo Jo.........just beautiful honey! I was one of those atheist for 43 years, and our Lord snatched me up with HIS love, gave me the Truth, changed me instantly, and my life has been for HIM ever since. HE is diffinately Truth of all things. I am honored our Lord loved me from the gates of hell, and broke the talons the enemy had in me, and rescue me with such loving tenderness and mighty power.

I too....pray and in agreement with you Jo Jo for Animal to be bless with the presence of God and salvation. You know what our Lord says when two or more are in agreement, and WHO is in the mist of us and what ever I ask in my Saviors name shall be done.....and HE has'nt failed me yet. I declare it so in the mighty name of Jesus, and by the power of HIS blood that was shed....Amen.


Animal...for 43 years I lived a occult life of many evil deeds and evil tools at/by my hand...casting curses that came to pass. I hope in Christ honey that you don't go for 43 years like I did before the Truth set me free. Believe me, this once very active in the occult person was given a Truth from God that when HE called me, there was no denying WHO HE was......to the point that the day HE saved me, as proof had me speaking Hebrew with witnesses to my spoken language who came from Jordan the Holy Lands, who recognized my language.....a language I've never spoke in my life before. Who had me quoting scriptures from a Book I never read. Who instantly delivered me from "several" 25-30 years of addictions with absolute no withdraws. Addictions that if I had stopped on my own, I would have several years of treatment and AA meetings.

I'm not going to boogle you with this and try to convince you otherwise except in speaking the Truth as I have now. My testimony is here CF for you to see where HE brought me from, if you so choose to be interested. I just hope in Christ that one day you should know HIS love.....GBU

Amen sister!! Thank you for sharing your testimony.

 

[Silver Bullet]

Is anyone here trying to force their opinion on others? I don't thinks so. All I am doing is stating my beliefs.

Nevertheless, you choose to always side with the microscopic cluster of cells that is a zygote over the full human being that the sexually active female who wants to use the pill is.

So my support of the zygote means that I would rather see a woman die than a cluster of cells? I don't know where you get that

Fair enough caromurp. I didn't mean to imply that you were forcing your views on others, but the usual Christian right-wing position on matters like these is that our laws should reflect "Christian values", and one could argue based on the topic of this post, that that could include banning the pill. This is certainly the argument from the Christian right-wing to ban RU-486, which works exactly the way the pill is being considered to work in this thread. This particular lobby prevented RU-486 from being available to US women for a considerable period of time.

I'm not sure why you bring up women dying, as I was not talking about abortion in the setting of a pregnancy-related threat to the mother's life. I do assume that you are against women using the pill for the reasons you have outlined. That is choosing the zygote over the woman who wants to use the pill every time isn't it? I mean, do you have a particular situation where you think it is acceptable for a woman to use the pill for contraception given that perhaps 20% of the time, its mechanism of action is what you would consider to be an abortion?

SB

 

[Caroline H]

Nevertheless, you choose to always side with the microscopic cluster of cells that is a zygote over the full human being that the sexually active female who wants to use the pill is.

I must have misunderstood this statement, I apologize.

I do assume that you are against women using the pill for the reasons you have outlined. That is choosing the zygote over the woman who wants to use the pill every time isn't it? I mean, do you have a particular situation where you think it is acceptable for a woman to use the pill for contraception given that perhaps 20% of the time, its mechanism of action is what you would consider to be an abortion?

It is not my place to necessarily say what someone should or shouldn't do. I am not the Holy Spirit, and all I can do is what my own conscience tells me to do. What I am suggesting here is that people have the complete information so as to make educated decisions. When information is withheld from people about things they are taking it makes me quite suspicious, and I certainly do not want to be anybody's cash cow.

 

[Silver Bullet]

Nevertheless, you choose to always side with the microscopic cluster of cells that is a zygote over the full human being that the sexually active female who wants to use the pill is.

I must have misunderstood this statement, I apologize.

No worries at all.

I do assume that you are against women using the pill for the reasons you have outlined. That is choosing the zygote over the woman who wants to use the pill every time isn't it? I mean, do you have a particular situation where you think it is acceptable for a woman to use the pill for contraception given that perhaps 20% of the time, its mechanism of action is what you would consider to be an abortion?

It is not my place to necessarily say what someone should or shouldn't do.

Well, it is your place in certain situations. If you saw someone about to murder your loved one, I am sure you would have a perfectly justified say as to what that someone should not do.

I am not the Holy Spirit

Agreed. ;)

What I am suggesting here is that people have the complete information so as to make educated decisions.

Totally agree.

SB

 

[Drew]

...but the usual Christian right-wing position on matters like these is that our laws should reflect "Christian values",...

Perhaps what I am about to post is a tad off-topic since it abstracts aways from the specific matter of the pill and speaks to a broader matter.

I suggest that few here would call me right-wing, but I am a Christian. And I certainly do believe that our society would be better off if Christian values - the ones Jesus taught - are enshrined in the laws of the land.

Somebody's values get enshrined in laws - let's not pretend that if you ban Christian (or Muslim, or whatever) principles from the domain of law, some other principles will not rush in to fill the void.

A Christian who, in the context of a democracy, advocates for the legal enshrinement of Christian principles in law is no different from an atheist who advocates for the enshrinement of secular principles in law.

 

[Silver Bullet]

...but the usual Christian right-wing position on matters like these is that our laws should reflect "Christian values",...

Perhaps what I am about to post is a tad off-topic since it abstracts aways from the specific matter of the pill and speaks to a broader matter.

I suggest that few here would call me right-wing, but I am a Christian. And I certainly do believe that our society would be better off if Christian values - the ones Jesus taught - are enshrined in the laws of the land.

Somebody's values get enshrined in laws - let's not pretend that if you ban Christian (or Muslim, or whatever) principles from the domain of law, some other principles will not rush in to fill the void.

A Christian who, in the context of a democracy, advocates for the legal enshrinement of Christian principles in law is no different from an atheist who advocates for the enshrinement of secular principles in law.

As you know Drew, I think that laws should basically flow from a consideration of how they impact the well-being vs suffering of people and conscious animals. I do not think that they should flow from considerations of stories or personalities that are indistinguishable from myth.

You could bring your post back on topic by commenting on whether you would be happy living in a place that bans the birth control pill because it sometimes is an abortifacient of morulas. Should you, in this case, want to enforce your Christian values on all others?

SB

 

[Drew]

As you know Drew, I think that laws should basically flow from a consideration of how they impact the well-being vs suffering of people and conscious animals. I do not think that they should flow from considerations of stories or personalities that are indistinguishable from myth.

Surely you realize that I will assert that it is precisely the kingdom of God values that Jesus taught which promote the well-being of humans and conscious animals.

Did you really think I would have thought otherwise?

You could bring your post back on topic by commenting on whether you would be happy living in a place that bans the birth control pill because it sometimes is an abortifacient of morulas. Should you, in this case, want to enforce your Christian values on all others?

I actually do not have an opinion on this. But your statement about "enforce my Christian values" needs to be addressed. As per my previous post, it is a myth to think that law does not enforce someone's values on society. So, to the extent that you, for example, advocate for laws that promote the "well-being of people and conscious animals", you would be, of course, "forcing" your values on others.

 

[Silver Bullet]

I actually do not have an opinion on this.

Why not? Given that you wrote this:

it is precisely the kingdom of God values that Jesus taught which promote the well-being of humans and conscious animals

I am forced to wonder why you wouldn't have an opinion on banning the pill because it can act as an abortifacient while Christian values oppose abortion. Perhaps there is a subtlety I am missing with regards to scripture. By "values that Jesus taught", are you implying perhaps that Jesus did not address birth control? I'm guessing here, and just trying to understand.

The question I would like you to address is who has precedence here: the sexually active woman who wants to use the pill, or the morula, which I think is incapable of experiencing well-being. I guess I am wondering if Christian values really maximize well-being in this case, or how Christian values address the balance of well-being in this case. If you are interested in sharing your thoughts on this consideration with me, let's avoid getting wrapped up in other moral issues and say, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in question is happily married, already has 3 children, and does not want to have any more, and that neither she nor her husband are willing to undergo any invasive contraceptive procedures nor use condoms. Should she be allowed to use the pill, or should it be banned?

But your statement about "enforce my Christian values" needs to be addressed. As per my previous post, it is a myth to think that law does not enforce someone's values on society. So, to the extent that you, for example, advocate for laws that promote the "well-being of people and conscious animals", you would be, of course, "forcing" your values on others.

At no point in this thread did I imply that laws do not enforce some set of values on all others, so the myth you seem to be accusing me of holding or spreading is a false accusation isn't it Drew? I will always support your freedom to make whatever point you feel you want to make Drew, but in this particular thread, you seem to be suggesting that you are making your point to counter something I may have implied or stated, and I just want to make it clear that the latter is false. I hope I'm not overreacting to this part of your post.

I'd like to add that I feel very comfortable enforcing "my values" as I have sketched them here and in other threads (aiming to always maximize well-being and diminish suffering of others as assessed by unbiased rational people) since I believe that this is the way all people rationally assess morality. Essentially, my values are or ought to be values that everyone can live with precisely because they are not "mine" per se: I think that they really are "ours". I could be wrong about this, and I am not implying that moral considerations are always simple. As I have stated here before, I have no formal training in philosophy or ethics, and I am really just beginning to formulate my thoughts on these matters. I am always interested in your opinions.

Best,
SB

 

[Drew]

I actually do not have an opinion on this.

Why not? Given that you wrote this:

it is precisely the kingdom of God values that Jesus taught which promote the well-being of humans and conscious animals

The specific challenge to which I responded with the "no opinion" was this:

You could bring your post back on topic by commenting on whether you would be happy living in a place that bans the birth control pill because it sometimes is an abortifacient of morulas

I was commenting on the fact that I do not have a particular opinion on the matter of whether the early embryo is a "person". If I, in fact, believed that it was, then, yes, I would advocate for laws protecting it.

 

[Drew]

At no point in this thread did I imply that laws do not enforce some set of values on all others, so the myth you seem to be accusing me of holding or spreading is a false accusation isn't it Drew?

I am not making a false accusation.

When you post this (I added the bolding):

Should you, in this case, want to enforce your Christian values on all others?

....you are making the strong implication that I would be unreasonable were I to advocate that the law of the land reflect Christian values. This "forcing of your values on others" language is widely used as a rhetorical critique in public debate these days. So when you write something like that, it needs to be pointed out that you do precisely the same thing - you advocate for the legal enshrinement of your values.

And just as it would be unreasonable for me to call that "enforcement" of your values, so it is equally unreasonably for you to suggest that I might wish to "enforce" my values on others.

 

[JoJo]

It is not unreasonable to believe that our laws reflect Christian values. Part of the reason Oklahoma passed the recent bill allowing a Ten Commandments monument to be displayed on government property is because it is considered historically significant, with the argument that Mosaic Law influenced modern law.

Think about it. We have laws against murder. Where did that come from? Who originally decided murder was a crime against humanity? The same thing with fraud. Who decided it was a crime against humanity to falsify information (lie)? What about theft? Who decided stealing was a crime against humanity?

 

[Silver Bullet]

When you post this (I added the bolding):

Should you, in this case, want to enforce your Christian values on all others?

....you are making the strong implication that I would be unreasonable were I to advocate that the law of the land reflect Christian values. This "forcing of your values on others" language is widely used as a rhetorical critique in public debate these days. So when you write something like that, it needs to be pointed out that you do precisely the same thing - you advocate for the legal enshrinement of your values.

And just as it would be unreasonable for me to call that "enforcement" of your values, so it is equally unreasonably for you to suggest that I might wish to "enforce" my values on others.

Wrong.

The only thing I was implying was that in the case considered in this thread, the enforcement of "Christian values" (which i believe would animate Christians to reject the pill) on all others would be unreasonable.

I never did imply that laws do not enforce a set of values on all others, nor that enforcing Christian values on all others is always unreasonable. I apologize if I didn't make myself clear enough.

In any case, I am interested in the opinion of other Christians on the question of whether the pill ought to be banned because it may, in up to 20% of cases, act as an abortifacient of morulas (3-5 day old human embryos).

Best,
SB

 

[turnorburn]

Look at it this way, if they can't kill you in the womb then they'll wait until
you get to kindergarten and die of aides. :yes

Mandatory 'gay' day for K-5 students
Board imposes homosexual curriculum on classes

A California school district has approved a mandatory homosexual curriculum for children as young as 5 – and parents will not be allowed to remove their children from the lessons.

Go to:
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=99442


turnorburn

 

[Silver Bullet]

I am interested in the opinion of other Christians on the question of whether the pill ought to be banned because it may, in up to 20% of cases, act as an abortifacient of morulas (3-5 day old human embryos).

Look at it this way, if they can't kill you in the womb then they'll wait until
you get to kindergarten and die of aides. :yes [/quote]

I see nothing humorous in this post, and it does not advance the discussion here.

It does imply that the pill "kills someone", so perhaps you could make a comment relevant to the question I asked. If you think the pill "kills someone", then should it be banned, the same way that murder is banned?

SB

 

[lovely]

I was watching a program on World today, which I think is a regular program...it's a panel of women who discuss current issues. We have only just received outside reception, and so I do not know many details so far about programming. Anyway, they were talking about population control and the various ways people wanted to go about solving the problem of our nation becoming over populated. The Pill was credited for a downward turn in the population growth, which they all agreed was the purpose of putting it in the hands of women. They mentioned how women finally had control over their reproductive cycles, and how great it was for the population issue, but they didn't talk about those early forms of the pill and how much harm they caused. The other thing mentioned was the 'right' and how they were now trying to suggest that the Pill kills. The woman literally denied that this was the case, and acted as if this was some awful 'right' deception. It may be a while before I watch that program again, because I didn't see one woman on the panel speaking up for the opposing side. They all seemed to share the same opinion...how is that a discussion? It may be a while before I watch that program again, because the tone was self-righteous and the format and content were deceptive, but I found it interesting that as feminists they had no problem with deceiving women and putting the pill in their hands for the sake of population control. Anyway, I though this related to the topic. The Lord bless.