The Place of an Unbeliever

[Classik]

What is the place of an unbeliever? Some say believers are distinguished from unbelievers. So, what is the place/position of an unbeliever - or where does God place an unbeliever. Thanks.

 

[Aardverk]

2:11 God does not show favoritism. 3:3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. Romans NIV

You asked that question just for me didn't you Classik

 

[Classik]

2:11 God does not show favoritism. 3:3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. Romans NIV You asked that question just for me didn't you Classik

[SIZE=+3]NO NO NO NO[/SIZE]

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Since we would be unevenly yoked with them, they can't be going where we are going.

 

[Davies]

Hi Classic,

John 13:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”


If we don't repent and put our trust in Jesus Christ, then we will not have any part with Him. There is no pardon for rejecting the gift of Jesus' righteousness and forgiveness, that is if the unbeliever dies is in this condition.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

[SIZE=+3]NO NO NO NO[/SIZE]

:seehearspeak

 

[tim-from-pa]

What is the place of an unbeliever? Some say believers are distinguished from unbelievers. So, what is the place/position of an unbeliever - or where does God place an unbeliever. Thanks.

Not sure I understand your question. Believers in Christ (Yahshua) are those chosen now to rule and reign with Christ. The rest who are not believers may be rebels, or again, they may not have been called. In the latter case, such a person is not technically saved or unsaved when they die as they may become either later on in the resurrection.

However, the bible says that blessed is he who is part of the first resurrection that the second death has no power over him. The rest are raised to life and may become saved, but not necessarily, and become extinguished in the second death to no longer exist.

 

[Davies]

The rest are raised to life and may become saved, but not necessarily, and become extinguished in the second death to no longer exist.

Hi tim-from-pa,

I've never read this in the Bible before. Where are you getting "no longer exist" from? Also, where do we read a person has an opportunity to repent and trust in Jesus after he dies?

- Davies

 

[Carolyn]

The ardvaark interpretation of these verses doesnt fit in with the context of Rom. 3 . 21 to 30, which is the point of these chapters as well as the rest of the New Testament. Perhaps it refers to the fact that some jews did not believe but God is still faithful to perform His promises to the nation of Israel to put flesh on the dry bones and restore her Spiritual life, for instance. God has not abandoned the Jews. He is faithful to all who repent and trust in the grace and provision made by Christs death on the cross just as He was faithful to all OT saints who trusted in the coming grace that was to be provided by the Messiah.

 

[matt041187]

If I knew there wasnt a God I would end my life. What's the point of getting out of bed each morning

 

[Davies]

Rah, Rah, Rah, Goooooooo Carolyn! lol

- Davies

 

[tim-from-pa]

Hi tim-from-pa,

I've never read this in the Bible before. Where are you getting "no longer exist" from? Also, where do we read a person has an opportunity to repent and trust in Jesus after he dies?

- Davies

Hi Davies:

No longer existing is perishing, right? John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish (not burn in an everlasting hell), but have eternal life. Humans don't have an immortal soul, and their eternal aspect is granted by God.

As for repenting after they die, that is in the resurrection that Jesus promised in John 5. The first resurrection is for the church, to rule and reign with Christ, the rest of the dead are raised thereafter in which the book of Revelation states:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So, what is the point of judging the dead by their works and opening the book of life unless they had a chance? Makes no sense to me otherwise. The redemption of mankiind is foreshadowed in the feasts of Yahweh. Christ dying on Passover, interred on the Unleavened bread, and raised on the Firstfruits so that later, the firstfruits of his salvation (Pentecost) are those (the church) who would rule and reign with Him. Later on, the feast of Tabernacles, and the Last Great Day foreshadowed salvation of more people (the rest of the world) not called in the so-called church age. Not everyone is saved now, nor is that the plan of God. This answers the age-old question "what happens to those who did not hear the gospel of Christ and never had a chance?" They are raised again and experience the Great White Throne judgment to salvation or destruction. This lasts about 100 years and is a "mini millennium" after the Millennium, before the final new heaven and earth.

 

[Davies]

Hi Davies:

No longer existing is perishing, right? John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish (not burn in an everlasting hell), but have eternal life. Humans don't have an immortal soul, and their eternal aspect is granted by God.

I have no clue where you get the idea that the soul is not immortal. I'll give you a couple of verses to consider.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Everlasting destruction means that people are immortal and have to exist if the destruction is everlasting. If you don't exist, then there is nothing to punish.

John 5:28-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice <sup class="versenum">29 </sup>and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Is not existing include condemnation? No. The dead are raised to the resurrection of condemnation. They will remain in a perpetual suffering.

Revelation 20:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-31053a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup>


The books will be opened so that man will be judged according to what he has done. As Christians, we have already been judged because our sins were accounted for on the cross with Jesus Christ. Those who get judged at the Great White Throne Judgement, are doomed. That is my understanding.

As for repenting after they die, that is in the resurrection that Jesus promised in John 5. The first resurrection is for the church, to rule and reign with Christ, the rest of the dead are raised thereafter in which the book of Revelation states:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

When we die, we will put on incorruption. We will be given a new body. We will be without sin and there will be no need for repentance anymore. We will have the ability to act without sin, and we know this because whoever is born of God does not sin. As for now, we are still in these corrupted bodies that are fading away.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">53 </sup>For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. <sup class="versenum">54 </sup>So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.â€<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-28773a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup>

So, what is the point of judging the dead by their works and opening the book of life unless they had a chance?

The point is that our holy God will judge righteously. We have our chance now. We have to come to God by faith, and we cannot please God without believing in Him.

It's appointed once to die, then the judgement. Do you think when we stand before God, we will have a chance to repent. You have to read into the text to understand repentance after death. I'd be curious as to which denominations believe the soul is not immortal and that eternal condemnation means you don't exist.

As long as a person repents and puts his faith in Jesus Christ now, I don't mind being wrong about this, but I think the exhortation of knowing that today is the day of salvation, don't leave anyone the idea that tomorrow, there will be a day of repentance when you don't know if that opportunity will exist.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

The ardvaark interpretation of these verses doesnt fit in with the context of Rom. 3 . 21 to 30, which is the point of these chapters as well as the rest of the New Testament. Perhaps it refers to the fact that some jews did not believe but God is still faithful to perform His promises to the nation of Israel to put flesh on the dry bones and restore her Spiritual life, for instance. God has not abandoned the Jews. He is faithful to all who repent and trust in the grace and provision made by Christs death on the cross just as He was faithful to all OT saints who trusted in the coming grace that was to be provided by the Messiah.

Ah, 'interpretation'. Refuge of all who want to prove their own views ;)

Lets have a crack at interpreting this.....

2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for :the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) [Romans NIV]​

The terms Gentile and Jew are archaic but I expect we can agree that this is meant to cover ALL people, regardless of religion. If you disagree, do say so and why.

2:9 makes it clear that anyone who does evil will suffer, regardless of religion. If you disagree please say so and why.

2:10 make it clear that there is 'glory and honor for everyone who does good' but I suppose we could interpret 'good' as following the law - so.....

2:14 makes it clear that those who do not have the law but nevertheless 'do by nature things that are required by the law' 13 'will be declared righteous'.

Maybe I am being a bit thick here but I can't see any way to interpret that other than the way I have done - i.e. good people who do good things are righteous in the eyes of God. 'God does not show favoristism'

Over to you....

 

[JCitoL]

as there are doctors and patients in the medicine, so there are spiritual servants and ordinary users in the true God and Jesus, while the spiritual servants there work for the overall salvation in the true Lord God, the ordinary users are the main subject(-s) of the life-saving mission/work of God and His spiritual servants

Romans 9:19-33 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour(viz. true righteous servants), and another unto dishonour(viz. just ordinary users)? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath(i.e. the ordinary users) fitted to destruction(i.e. prepared for purification): And that he might make known the riches of his glory(i.e. the glory of overall salvation) on the vessels of mercy(i.e. on the true spiritual servants), which he had afore prepared unto glory(i.e. to glorify), Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews(i.e. not of the clerics/believers) only, but also of the Gentiles(i.e. but also of the infidel/non-occult people)? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel(i.e. concerning the clerics/believers/righteous people), Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea(i.e. though the number of the clerics/believers/righteous people may be as the number of the sand particles), a remnant shall be saved(i.e. it is likely only a remnant of them to be accepted as true): For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness(i.e. for He will finish His work shortening the time to a maximum of no more than 5-6 millennia): because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed(i.e. if the true God had not left a righteousness in the faith to the clerics/believers), we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha(i.e. then they would become monstrous idolaters even like the people of sodom and gomorrha). What shall we say then? That the Gentiles(i.e. that the infidel/non-occult people), which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness(i.e. after the faith), hath not attained to the law of righteousness(i.e. to the Holy Law of (the) faith). Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith(i.e. not by (the) right faith), but as it were by the works of the law(i.e. by (the) human religion/spirituality). For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion(i.e. in the world of faith) a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

Blessings

 

[Aardverk]

as there are doctors and patients in the medicine, so there are spiritual servants and ordinary users in the true God and Jesus, while the spiritual servants there work for the overall salvation in the true Lord God, the ordinary users are the main subject(-s) of the life-saving mission/work of God and His spiritual servants

If doctors were trying to treat their patients in accordance with 2,000 year old instructions I would accept your analogy.

The people who think their interpretation is sound only have their own judgement to rely upon. Just because one man claims to be holier than his neighbor does not mean that his interpretation of scripture ia any more accurate than anyone else.

As has just been said in another post, it was not written for us, it was written for a different people in a different age. Their understanding was inevitably different from ours.

 

[Classik]

I have a question for you. I'm curious:dunno

 

[JCitoL]

If doctors were trying to treat their patients in accordance with 2,000 year old instructions I would accept your analogy.

The people who think their interpretation is sound only have their own judgement to rely upon. Just because one man claims to be holier than his neighbor does not mean that his interpretation of scripture ia any more accurate than anyone else.

As has just been said in another post, it was not written for us, it was written for a different people in a different age. Their understanding was inevitably different from ours.

it has been written about this in both Testaments

Isaiah 1:21-23 "How is the faithful city become an harlot(i.e. how the faith is become a religious/spiritual iniquity?)! it was full of judgment(i.e. of good treatment); righteousness(i.e. perfect love) lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver(i.e. your word) is become dross(i.e. foul), thy wine(i.e. your grace) mixed with water(i.e. with inefficiency): Thy princes(i.e. your spiritual servants) are rebellious(i.e. are enemies of God('s truth)), and companions of thieves(i.e. and assistants of devils/demons): every one loveth gifts(i.e. self-interests), and followeth after rewards(i.e. offerings): they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them(i.e. they are not concerned about the good of the infidel people in the true God, neither about the redemption of the weak clerics/believers therein).",

James 1:25-27 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty(i.e. but whosoever becomes acquainted with/in the Holy Law of faith), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue(i.e. and does not be careful in its faith not to do spiritual/religious iniquity), but deceiveth his own heart(i.e. but deceives its own spirit therein), this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows(i.e. to take care of the good of the infidel people and the weak believers in the true God and Jesus) in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world(i.e. from the works of human(666) religion)."

Blessings