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The Poverty Gospel

Pard

Member
We speak about the "Prosperity Gospel" because it is such a prevalent and, well for lack of a better term, depraved new-age theology that has swept our television channels and our bookstores. It's a very unbiblical theology that entangles the lost in this whole "God wants you to have what your heart desires" teaching and claims that the inverse of prosperity, and truly even the lack of great wealth, is but God's punishing for your displeasing (not necessarily even evil, but simply displeasing) ways. The idea that, and someone on here brought this to my attention a few weeks ago, you can be saved but have God punishing you with poverty or even lower-middle-class-ness.

Well, the opposite of this "prosperity gospel" is logically the "poverty gospel". And though I have not yet seen or heard someone actually take it to this point yet, I can see the workings of it.

Now don't get me wrong I think Francis Chan is doing some awesome stuff and I have two of his books and I agree with him wholeheartedly, I think that, and maybe even fear that, his words and the words of others of this new movement towards humility and glory to God alone (as opposed to the backsliding from this way that once was but is now often not in the church) and above all other things may be turned into some sort of "poverty gospel". That is, salvation comes through simplicity and poverty, or better put, simplicity and poverty are the fruits of salvation.

This, unlike the prosperity gospel, is one that could be very easily concluded through the four gospels, as well as the remainder of the New Testament. At a first glance the entire New Testament seems to be an opposition to wealth and riches, but is it? I'd say not. Even Paul, maybe one of the most poverty stricken apostles in the New Testament, says that you should give to lift up others, but you should not give to the point that you yourself fall to where they were! Help your brothers up, but don't trade your place for theirs, lest you yourself end up in the need of another.

The truth of the matter is that riches breeds sin, both greed, idolatry, coveting, and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Speaking from experience, when I was a kid I'd get (what I thought anyways) was vast amounts of wealth each birthday and Christmas. I'd get crisp $100 bills, glorious $50 bills, an awesome $20 bills. I was rich! I was so happy, because of the M-O-N-E-Y! I had the world by the beard and look out because I was unstoppable!

This is what Jesus meant when he warned about wealth. It breeds a sense of power. He warned against it because truly the rich man would see himself as equal to God and as in no need of His help. This is sin, and this is what Christ meant by the words, not that the way to Heaven had a maximum income level, like roller-coasters and their "You Must be This Tall" signs.

Just something to keep your thoughts on, your prayers on, and your eye on, lest someone decides to grab that pendulum as it hits the apex of the "prosperity gospel" and decides to swing it ALLLLLLLLL the way to the other side. Of course this would be something that believers would have to worry about because there is really no way that such a "poverty gospel" would grab many from the world, although maybe a few hippies and some hobos would jump on that train. The true fear is that it will bring Christian brother against Christian brother.

And some may very well say I am just crazy, but it's not something new, this idea of poverty being the fruit of salvation isn't new at all, it's just as old as prosperity being the fruit of salvation!
 
If you go by number, I would say, the poor sin more than the rich and at the same time, generally (whether christian or not), do more abominable things.
 
I don't know about that... I mean truth be told the stereotypical rich man (and really not that much of a stereotype if it fits the bill!) is in a state of habitual sin. He is in a state of habitual idolatry. And truth be told, both the unsaved rich guy and the unsaved poor guy are in a state of habitual sin for denying Christ...

Besides that it is not a contest of who can sin more or less than the next guy, it's a "I sinned, and now I am worthy of death, ho-hum..." kind of thing.
 
Something I have encountered time and time again is when i have lots of toys and money I am distracted with it all. If I say go camping fora few days in the forest, I have me, the trees, a meal and God. Without all the stuff in my life I can pray and try to hear with a clear head.



Riches also have a sense of self reliance that causes you to forget God at times.

Poverty makes you seek God like nothing else. I have been more spiritually sensitive in these times, I have sought god more because I had nothing to loose and plenty of time.

Riches let you minister to people so both serve different purposes but are used by God at times differently for our benefit.. I don't think extreme poverty is gods desire for any of us.
 
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Truth!

We are each a individual and unique child of God. He has a plan for us and He will unfold that plan in our lives. That plan may be to live a rich life, so that we may minister and show love and kindness and generosity to others. And our lot may to live a poor life, so that we may show humbleness and joy and love to others. I feel, in earnest, that the key is not what you have, but glorifying the one who gave you what you have. I pray to God that I may always remember and glorify Him, giving thanks if I am to live in poverty and giving thanks if I am to live in wealth.

Both are awesome gifts, because to even live is an awesome gift! We squander to much time wanting what we don't have and hating what we do and too little time loving what we do have and praising God for even this chance at life. And now I am thinking of those poor souls who didn't even get the chance to live. Each day I will give the Lord thanks that I did get that chance!
 
To whom much is given much is required. A wealthy Christian has the ability to support many good things both in the area of evangelism and meeting the needs of the poor. The risk as we all know that they become comfortable in their wealth which becomes a snare. Abraham was a very wealthy man and God considered Him righteous.

So the difference is not wealth but riches for a wealthy man sees them self a steward of that which he has a rich man sees it as all his. So you can be wealthy with a lot or even sufficient and God is still pleased but Jesus never spoke well of the rich man.

Poverty does not bring God glory but the heart attitude of a man in poverty or in wealth does.

John O
 
We speak about the "Prosperity Gospel" because it is such a prevalent and, well for lack of a better term, depraved new-age theology that has swept our television channels and our bookstores. It's a very unbiblical theology that entangles the lost in this whole "God wants you to have what your heart desires" teaching and claims that the inverse of prosperity, and truly even the lack of great wealth, is but God's punishing for your displeasing (not necessarily even evil, but simply displeasing) ways. The idea that, and someone on here brought this to my attention a few weeks ago, you can be saved but have God punishing you with poverty or even lower-middle-class-ness.

Well, the opposite of this "prosperity gospel" is logically the "poverty gospel". And though I have not yet seen or heard someone actually take it to this point yet, I can see the workings of it.

Now don't get me wrong I think Francis Chan is doing some awesome stuff and I have two of his books and I agree with him wholeheartedly, I think that, and maybe even fear that, his words and the words of others of this new movement towards humility and glory to God alone (as opposed to the backsliding from this way that once was but is now often not in the church) and above all other things may be turned into some sort of "poverty gospel". That is, salvation comes through simplicity and poverty, or better put, simplicity and poverty are the fruits of salvation.

This, unlike the prosperity gospel, is one that could be very easily concluded through the four gospels, as well as the remainder of the New Testament. At a first glance the entire New Testament seems to be an opposition to wealth and riches, but is it? I'd say not. Even Paul, maybe one of the most poverty stricken apostles in the New Testament, says that you should give to lift up others, but you should not give to the point that you yourself fall to where they were! Help your brothers up, but don't trade your place for theirs, lest you yourself end up in the need of another.

The truth of the matter is that riches breeds sin, both greed, idolatry, coveting, and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Speaking from experience, when I was a kid I'd get (what I thought anyways) was vast amounts of wealth each birthday and Christmas. I'd get crisp $100 bills, glorious $50 bills, an awesome $20 bills. I was rich! I was so happy, because of the M-O-N-E-Y! I had the world by the beard and look out because I was unstoppable!

This is what Jesus meant when he warned about wealth. It breeds a sense of power. He warned against it because truly the rich man would see himself as equal to God and as in no need of His help. This is sin, and this is what Christ meant by the words, not that the way to Heaven had a maximum income level, like roller-coasters and their "You Must be This Tall" signs.

Just something to keep your thoughts on, your prayers on, and your eye on, lest someone decides to grab that pendulum as it hits the apex of the "prosperity gospel" and decides to swing it ALLLLLLLLL the way to the other side. Of course this would be something that believers would have to worry about because there is really no way that such a "poverty gospel" would grab many from the world, although maybe a few hippies and some hobos would jump on that train. The true fear is that it will bring Christian brother against Christian brother.

And some may very well say I am just crazy, but it's not something new, this idea of poverty being the fruit of salvation isn't new at all, it's just as old as prosperity being the fruit of salvation!


There are 9 fruit of the Spirit of (salvation) and poverty is not one of them.
The idea of "poverty" as a fruit of salvation is a sort of "working to be saved" heretics idea that has nothing to do with real salvation or real Christianity or the bible.
And to conclude that just because you personally cant handle wealth, then neither can millions of other Christians whom God has so blessed financially, is also the pot trying to paint the kettle black by twisting scriptures.
In other words, its nonsense x 10.

The fact is, a "poverty gospel" comes from a type of mindset that wants to play a fake martyr game with itself as some sort of self righteous pretense of New Testamant godliness.
Let me tell you a fact...
Poverty is not a fruit of salvation, and poverty is not the will of God for any Joint heir of GOD or Joint heir of Christ the King.
The good news, the fact of the matter is.....God and Christ are the authors of abundance, and abundance is the opposite of poverty just like LIFE is the opposite of DEATH.
Think about that...
Now, it is possible that because God knows the heart and the motives of each of us right this very second, he will not allow some believers any of the extra financial benefits that he wants them to have because he knows they will waste it.....so for those, he meets their needs.

Finally,
the poverty gospel is a gospel that denies the blessings of God as its created to maintain the self-righteouness hypocrisy of its proponents.
Now, let me explain this so that you dont miss it...
A person who owns a car, has a refrigerator with food in it, has money in the bank and pocket, has the ability to pay their bills, ,owns a PC or a Laptop, a job and insurance, has an Apple product, has musical instruments, a home stereo, Air Conditioning, a home or an apartment, cable and a TV.. has good health...on and on and on......>.
This very blessed person, is usually the ridiculous person who wallows themselves and the word of God in a poverty pretended self righteous attitude and theology, and the whole time they are whining about "prosperity", their entire LIFE is full of BLESSINGS.
(Check the list and see how many things you possess before you again curse "prosperity".).

So, instead of giving God the praise and the glory for the blessings he has given them, they instead want to whine about, "god wants us to not have much", while they themselves have MUCH..!!
So truly, their entire dishonest POV hypocrisy stinks in the nostrils of the Almighty as he watches them sit there in the AC, in front of the TV watching cable, belly full, whining about a "prosperity gospel".




K
 
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So, I take it you are a member of the prosperity gospel theology? I am very sorry that they got to you...
 
A person who owns a car, has a refrigerator with food in it, has money in the bank and pocket, has the ability to pay their bills, has a car, a PC or a Laptop, a job and insurance, has an Apple product, has musical instruments, a home stereo, Air Conditioning, a home or an apartment, cable and a TV.. has good health...on and on and on......>.
You just described most people in the United States...who are on welfare.



So, instead of giving God the praise and the glory for the blessings he has given them, they instead want to whine about, "god wants us to not have much", while they themselves have MUCH..!!
So truly, their entire dishonest POV hypocrisy stinks in the nostrils of the Almighty as he watches them sit there in the AC, in front of the TV watching cable, belly full, whining about a "prosperity gospel".[/SIZE]
This is true.

I got beat up pretty badly in another forum defending just a 'non excessive' prosperity gospel a while back. They shut up pretty quick when the hypocrisy of their nice homes and kids in college was brought up. Somehow God did not want to give them that but they had it nevertheless.
 
"...give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God."

Proverbs 30:8-9 NIV1984



Prosperity is relative to our own station in the kingdom. If you have talents that can make $250,00.00 a year, God's abundance can mean something quite different for you than someone making $25.000.00, or even $250.00 a year.
 
So, I take it you are a member of the prosperity gospel theology? I am very sorry that they got to you...
There really is a legitimate prosperity gospel. I bet you'd agree if you thought about it. It's just that we all have to sort it out for ourselves relative to our own faith and relationship with God. There was a day that I would only accept the very basics from God. That's just where my faith was. Today I have more faith to truly believe that God will do more than just let us scrape out a living. I know that, not because I decided to have more faith about it, but God's blessings were truly overtaking me as I focused on his kingdom and righteousness. That gave me the faith to know God is truly interested in much more than just our bare subsistence.
 
kidron doesn't sound like a prosperity preacher to me. Perhaps he's presenting this in a way that sounds a little harsh.....
 
There really is a legitimate prosperity gospel. I bet you'd agree if you thought about it. It's just that we all have to sort it out for ourselves relative to our own faith and relationship with God. There was a day that I would only accept the very basics from God. That's just where my faith was. Today I have more faith to truly believe that God will do more than just let us scrape out a living. I know that, not because I decided to have more faith about it, but God's blessings were truly overtaking me as I focused on his kingdom and righteousness. That gave me the faith to know God is truly interested in much more than just our bare subsistence.

When reading you post something about the 'rich young ruler' comes to mind - don't know why - any idea?
 
When reading you post something about the 'rich young ruler' comes to mind - don't know why - any idea?
Yeah, I think so. Believe it or not, I had forgotten that the rich young ruler was what I wanted to bring up earlier in the week in this thread.

We see in that passage that 'eternal life' is not necessarily just eternal life as we understand it in the life to come, and that it's really relative to what our standard of living already is.

It seems, judging by Jesus' 'works' answer, that eternal life includes a quality of life we can know in this life, not just the sweet by and by. The man was very wealthy, and to us by all outward appearances prospering, but the man had not given all to follow God--he had not put the kingdom first.

Intuitively the man knew, even though he said he'd kept all the commandments and was rich, that he still lacked something, for he asks, "“What do I still lack?” (Matt. 19:10). He knew he was lacking something now in regard to eternal life. It shows how the prosperity of eternal life in this life is relative to our own particular relationship with God, and our lot in life, good or bad. Because to us he should already be in the very epitome of what it means to be living the reality of God's prosperity gospel. But yet he wonders what he still lacks. It's all relative, isn't it?

Eternal life isn't just about the next life. We are to be experiencing it now to some degree. It seems Jews, being very familiar with what 'eternal life' means, get it, while we in the gentile church...not so much. And the prosperity of eternal life seems to be relative to what one's potential, and station in life already is.
 
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So, I take it you are a member of the prosperity gospel theology? I am very sorry that they got to you...

No, im just someone who believes the New Testament, and is here to (among other things) blow the whistle on anyone who rants against some "prosperity gospel" to try to deny the blessings of God which are designed for a Christian, WHILE, that same ranter, is sittting there and has cable, a car, food, a cell phone, AC, health, a pc or laptop, a tv, jewelry, money in the bank, bills paid, a home stereo, a home or apartment, lots of clothes, ect.
So, this person, >who has all this biblical prosperity<, is drowning in theological and personal hypocrisy and deceit, and is trying to drown all others with them.



K
 
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No, im just someone who believes the New Testament, and is here to (among other things) blow the whistle on anyone who rants against some "prosperity gospel" to try to deny the blessings of God which are designed for a Christian, WHILE, that same ranter, is sittting there and has cable, a car, food, a cell phone, AC, health, a pc or laptop, a tv, jewelry, money in the bank, bills paid, a home stereo, a home or apartment, lots of clothes, ect.
So, this person, >who has all this biblical prosperity<, is drowning in theological and personal hypocrisy and deceit, and is trying to drown all others with them.


Then I take it you have no idea what the prosperity gospel is, because if you believe in the New Testament than you would agree that it is a terrible thing. Perhaps you should update yourself on the current false gospels before trying to come in on your high horse and sound your bugle of hypocrisy. The prosperity gospel is a very real thing that leads millions of people away from Christ every year. It is nothing like that of which you speak, it is a evil thing that promotes materialism and worldly coveting. It takes the focus and the glory off of the Creator and puts it on the Created.

Now I see that you, perhaps, have no clue what it is, so I urge you to go find out before you start inadvertently promoting one of Satan's many gospels...

And just to clear it up, I don't have a car, an AC, a TV, jewelry, "money in the bank", bills paid, "a home stereo" (so 90s), or lots of clothing. Actually the only things I own are a laptop and a few shirts, a pair of jeans, a pair of shorts, and a few dozen books. And yes, the hypocrisy of someone railing against me, when they in turn have much more than I is very hilarious to my heart, thanks for the uplifting!
 
Then I take it you have no idea what the prosperity gospel is, because if you believe in the New Testament than you would agree that it is a terrible thing. Perhaps you should update yourself on the current false gospels before trying to come in on your high horse and sound your bugle of hypocrisy. The prosperity gospel is a very real thing that leads millions of people away from Christ every year. It is nothing like that of which you speak, it is a evil thing that promotes materialism and worldly coveting. It takes the focus and the glory off of the Creator and puts it on the Created.

Now I see that you, perhaps, have no clue what it is, so I urge you to go find out before you start inadvertently promoting one of Satan's many gospels...

And just to clear it up, I don't have a car, an AC, a TV, jewelry, "money in the bank", bills paid, "a home stereo" (so 90s), or lots of clothing. Actually the only things I own are a laptop and a few shirts, a pair of jeans, a pair of shorts, and a few dozen books. And yes, the hypocrisy of someone railing against me, when they in turn have much more than I is very hilarious to my heart, thanks for the uplifting!
This is why I say it is a personal thing, between the person and God, according to where they're at with him themselves.

I learned not to question the faith of those who are sure they can move mountains. Real or not, that's their business (the concept that great faith does great things is certainly Biblical). And I also learned not to bash people who don't have the faith I think they should have.

Romans 14 teaches us not to look down on those with weak faith and appear to have failed. And it teaches us that we are not to condemn those with strong faith that allows them certain liberties. For each of us alone will stand before God and give an accounting of our lives. Let each man do what he is sure will allow him to stand in the judgment, and let the Master of the servants do the judging. (I know...let's all make Romans 14 our next 'toilet read'.)


And then, of course, the Bible also says meddling in a quarrel is like grabbing a dog by the ears...meaning you're going to get bit from one side or the other, lol. But that's usually where I sit--right in the middle of the polarized doctrines and controversies of the church. Where you can usually find the truth. Scarred knuckles and all.
 
And I agree with you, Jethro, but we must call out false teachers and condemn their preaching! God expects a full account of your life. This means that we must not only preach the gospel, but preach against false gospels, like the "prosperity gospel", which (for the unknowing) preaches that wealth should be spent on material things and that when you buy for yourself you are giving to God because it makes the body of Christ look well off. In matters of inter-Christian discussion you speak some truth, but in matters of false teachers, false gospels, false faiths, we must speak out because those are your potential brothers and sisters being fed a series of lies that will lead to their own destruction!
 
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